duodenum posted:

I don't have anything to cite because I heard this in conversation a long time ago, but it was said that the benefits that people report from things like acupuncture and chiropractic back manipulation are only about what one would see from receiving a massage treatment. That's it's more likely about what benefits (psychological and physical) we receive from mutual grooming behaviors than from anything like what quack practitioners claim.

Does that sound right or reasonable as a shorthand to explain whatever benefits people stand by to defend quacks?

Talmonis posted:

Cousin: "The thing you've got to realize is that the water remembers."
Me

duodenum posted:

I don't have anything to cite because I heard this in conversation a long time ago, but it was said that the benefits that people report from things like acupuncture and chiropractic back manipulation are only about what one would see from receiving a massage treatment. That's it's more likely about what benefits (psychological and physical) we receive from mutual grooming behaviors than from anything like what quack practitioners claim.

Does that sound right or reasonable as a shorthand to explain whatever benefits people stand by to defend quacks?

OP posted:

I don't like either acupuncture or herbal medicine, which is why it annoys me that there's evidence that they're medicinally beneficial that stands up to modern scientific rigor. This was brought up as a derail in another thread, so here we are. My argument is that the Acupuncture and herbal medicine have medicinal benefits that are backed by double blind clinical trials, the gold standard of what's 'real'. Where we left off:

XMNN posted:

Something like that is the only thing that makes sense because chi and chakras and crystals and water memory are all extremely obviously bullshit and can't possibly be an explanation for any positive effects of these methods, if there are any.

snorch posted:

There's a lot of what I feel is misplaced vitriol and hostility in this thread, especially towards the patients who believe in this sort of stuff. What a lot of people seem to be missing is that these are usually people who have had some very unfortunate experiences with mainstream medicine, and will go through a lot of mental gymnastics to let themselves believe that the "alternative" treatments are ultimately the right path. Combine this with the human tendency to group themselves and others into movement and countermovement, and suddenly you have people singing the praises of Bleeblop Root Extract and harboring belief in a global conspiracy of doctors to keep 'em coming back by loving their poo poo up.

Picture someone who has been through pain and malpractice in sickly lit clinics that smell of peroxide and death, who goes in to the doctor telling them their prescription isn't helping, only to have them rubberstamp a script for double the dosage and send them out the door, who feels scared and alone, uncertain of what is going on with their body because the best a doctor can give them is a "well your results look fine" and a smirk that oozes feigned pity.

So this person decides they're fed up, and as a last-ditch attempt to be healthy they decide to visit the Alternative Medicine Yuppie Witch Doctor that Sheila from Work was telling them about. The practice is lovely, with lots of plants, mellow lighting, with a faint hint of lavender and cardamom in the air, and maybe even some soothing music in the waiting room. Having waited just five minutes with their rear end resting on the generously stuffed cushion of a hand-carved wooden chair, they are called in to the Healing Room, where the Healer Person asks detailed questions about them, their condition, eating habits, pets, love life, all that stuff. Then they are asked to strip down to their undergarments (the room is well above stiff-nipple temperature) and lay on the Healing Table. The Healing Session probably then consists of some firm but overall pleasant touching, some "do you feel like that when i go like this?" questioning (the answer is always "uh-huh"), maybe some light small talk in between, undoubtedly touching on the horror stories of medicine past. The patient leaves the practice 65 bucks lighter and having had an almost entirely positive experience.

Stories similar to this are commonplace across the globe, and usually lead to some degree of belief in the core methods being applied. I really find it hard to fault people for rejecting rigorously proven medicine in favor of excellent bedside manner. The unfortunate reality is that lots of people are put off by the cold clinical vibes and lovely attitudes they experience any time they have to visit the doctor, leaving with a bad taste in their mouth, and doubting that what they received was adequate care.

A lot of people forget that the care experience is about more than just the direct treatment of an illness; bedside manner, a welcoming atmosphere, transparency, and adequate face time with doctors and nurses are all factors affecting not only the mental wellbeing of a patient, but also the outcome of their treatment. These are things that "alternative" medicine often does better than the mainstream, and that's something that needs to be acknowledged.


Water memory is pretty much certainly bullshit, but stuff like chi, chakras, "energy", whatever are IMO only partially so. As far as I can tell, they are for the most part words used to describe concepts built around highly subjective perceptions of one's own body that have otherwise not effectively been put into words. That highly subjective nature, combined with the immense potential for miscommunication and misunderstanding is the reason these things are such hairy topics to discuss. Some people would like to believe that the "energy" they perceive exists very directly in the physical realm and can be influenced by magnets or crystals or needles or whatever, and from what I have seen, this is where much of the superstition and bullshit arises from (looking at you, Reiki). From what I have experienced though, I think most of the stuff described can be thought of as neurological abstractions of complex interactions between various parts of the nervous system, and to some extent things like yoga and meditation can have a pronounced effect on these phenomena. Given that, I think it is absolutely worth taking a good scientific look into the nature of these perceptions. Bits and pieces of some of these so-called alternative medicine concepts do occasionally manage to creep into mainstream treatment (meditation, fecal transplants, some herbal medicines), so while it's very important to view these things critically, it's also a lovely idea to write it all off wholesale without at least being inquisitive and picking the ideas apart looking for the core of their benefits.

CommieGIR posted:

You are trying too hard to equate the overall nice experience of visiting an alternative medicine practitioner to a successful treament. That is a very bad fallacy.

snorch posted:

snorch posted:

That's not the message I'm trying to convey, but rather that patients often come to value the experience more than the treatment, and in turn attempt to justify the "alternative" as the best decision in their minds, because the way it's portrayed on both sides is that you can choose either one or the other, but not both; doctors are can't stand the mention of the hocum quackery, and the quacks can't stand those uppity doctors.

Adar posted:

This is an interesting thread because a close family member of mine is an acupuncturist as well as an MD (yes, board certified). His father was also an acupuncturist. Neither of them are Asian or believe in chi so there was no cultural tradition whatsoever, nor did either of them ever claim that acupuncture could cure cancer or other horseshit. However, another relative has spent a lot of time getting acupuncture specifically to relieve pain from chronic migraines and swears by it after normal painkillers clearly failed. I personally got a course of ten treatments to reduce a specific nervous tremor when I was a teenager; it definitely gave me a phobia of needles (lol) but I believe it also measurably reduced/eliminated the tremor as well, though how much of that is because of enforced learning to stay still, well, who the gently caress knows.

I am one of the most skeptical people you will ever meet on every other subject but have to admit that acupuncture throws me for a loop. The traditional explanations certainly don't make any sense but it's difficult for me to believe that it is completely worthless in the sense that homeopathy is. If it is simply a placebo effect, chronic pain patients should not be as susceptible to it, and even if they are, the conclusion I'm forced to draw is that no one should ever expose it since chronic pain treatment in particular can be ineffective or dangerous with modern tools.

On the other hand, people claiming that solutions of lavender cure cancer should die in a fire.

Sergg posted:

My uncle died a horrible death from sinus cancer because he tried homeopathic and naturopathic 'medicine' for an entire year instead of actual medicine. By the time he got chemo it was too late. These quacks do real harm.

Zeitgueist posted:

Isn't that how Steve Jobs died?

quote:

Lucille consulted a physician in another city, a physiatrist, with whom she had an acquaintance. This physician urged her to obtain a second opinion, which she did. The second opinion was the same, but Lucille was determined to obtain nontraditional treatment. She prevailed upon her physician acquaintance to find an individual to provide such a treatment. Together they visited a naturopath who claimed to cure cancer. However, at their meeting he requested an advance payment in full of many thousands of dollars as well as agreements signed by all family members excusing him from any liability.

Lucille determined to find another person to treat her illness. She began to read books with titles like "The Cure for All Cancers" and "The Cancer Encyclopedia." One such book was by a chiropractor in a nearby state. Lucille sought treatment at his clinic. After their first meeting, she believed he could cure her cancer. She began to visit his clinic on a regular basis, although it was almost 150 miles away. She wrote him frequently to keep him updated with the progress of her disease. During her visits, he extracted blood and examined it in a dark-field microscope, showing her the field of view. At some point, he recommended that she use 714X, an injectable medicine promoted by a Canadian doctor. So she sent for it and began giving it to herself.

Meanwhile she continued to consult her physician acquaintance who examined her periodically, sold her homeopathic remedies, and provided blood irradiation services (a technique of extracting blood into a quartz vessel illuminated by ultraviolet light).

She continued to conceal both her disease and the true purpose of her homeopathic treatment from all in her family. She described her behavior as a search for a healthy lifestyle. I witnessed a gradual buildup of dozens of homeopathic remedies and the conversion of our family to organic-only food; and finally I discovered her self-injection treatments. She knew I disapproved strongly of these and of her visits to the chiropractor. I began to print and leave around articles which I found at the CDC website on the dangers of nonlicensed medicine. In hindsight, this was far too little, too late. However, being married for 33 years to this woman who was wonderful in other ways made me too tolerant.

Eventually her untreated cancer broke through to the surface of her breast. Her physician acquaintance explained that the cauliflower-like nodules were "carbuncles" caused by an excess of lymph. Her self-treatment became even more extreme and she purchased a device with two headlights on wands at a cost of many thousands of dollars. The instructions with these show a diagram of the human lymphatic system and they were intended to "promote lymphatic flow."

By this time, two years had passed since the initial diagnosis. The chiropractor stated that he couldn't help her any more and suggested she go to Germany to be treated there. Lucille discovered through a casual remark by his staff that his other patients were receiving chemotherapy. Lucille felt misled by him because he had caused her to believe that chemotherapy was harmful and not desirable.

The growing tumor had metastasized and Lucille's left arm developed extreme lymphedema (swelling caused by blockage of drainage of the lymphatic system). This was not concealable, and I began to question her. Eventually she disclosed her condition and within a few days I convinced her to see another physician both of us had worked with and whom she also trusted. He arranged for immediate admission to his hospital and for the case to be taken over by an excellent oncologist. We obtained her cooperation to this 'conventional' treatment. Her oncologist did not criticize her homeopathic, naturopathic health providers even as he gave us a prognosis of months. She was released from the hospital on a fearsome regimen of chemotherapy. A surgeon consultant and radiation therapist consultant found her untreatable; and she died approximately 4 months later -- a few days short of her 55th birthday.

quote:

The Victim

Dead from malnutrition and pneumonia is Lorie Atikian. Eight months before her death on September 25, 1987, Lorie was a perfectly healthy baby. When she died she was nearly bald, covered with deep red rashes, and so emaciated that the paramedics thought they were being tricked by being given a doll to treat.

The Parents

Lorie's parents Sonia, 38, and Khochadour, 54, are emigres from Lebanon and Syria. In addition to Lorie, the couple has two teenaged children. Like many people these days the Atikian's were concerned about modern food additives, pesticide residues, and drugs. Their cultural background may have made them a bit more vulnerable, but like most people they held positive attitudes toward "natural" food and medicine. Sonia became enamored with Gerhard Hanswille, an "herbologist."

The "Herbologist"

Gerhard Hanswille, 55, says that he learned herbology in Germany through self-study and books (Germany has a tradition of folk medicine that includes a great deal of Medieval herbalism). In 1972, Hanswille obtained a mail order doctoral degree in naturopathy from "Bernadean University" (BU) located at that time in Las Vegas, Nevada. BU, which was never approved or accredited to offer any courses, was closed down by the Nevada Commission on Postsecondary Education in 1976. It then moved to California where it operated for several years before eventually becoming "authorized" under the State's liberal rules (Aronson, 1983). California has tried to close BU but has been blocked by its claim to being a religious school of the Church of Universology (Emshwiller, 1987).

Hanswille owns two "House of Herbs" stores, writes and gives seminars at which he expounds his theories, which include making wax and clay effigies sealed with drops of blood and sperm (notions founded in Monism and Vitalism which are the basis of most primitive folk medicine). Hanswille's book describes how to heal diabetes, epilepsy, TB, tumors and paralysis by "touchless massage." Hanswille likens the technique to dowsing for water, something that "not everyone can do." Sonia paid $450 to take Hanswille's course.

The Promise

Hanswille's compelling vision of natural health made a convert of Sonia. When she became pregnant with Lorie in 1985 Hanswille convinced her to remain "pure" for the sake of the child. She testified that Hanswille promised to make Lorie a super baby. "That baby is going to be very different. Its going to develop without chemicals. Its going to be strong and pure...it going to be very special." Hanswille convinced Sonia that vaccinations would "poison" her child, and that ultrasound examination would damage an unborn baby's brain. He had Sonia tell her pediatrician that she would not be bringing Lorie in any more because the family was moving to California. Hanswille was described as ". . .like a doctor. . .surrounded by medicine and books. . . sure of what he was saying. He always had an answer."

The Regimen

Hanswille advocated an organic, vegetarian diet. He sold the Atikians a special juicer for $400 alleging that their own juicer "burned the nutrition" out of fruits. Among the special products the Atikians purchased from Hanswille were a bottle of baby oil that cost $16, a bar of soap costing $7.40, and a 3 kg box of laundry detergent that cost $35.99.

When Lorie became ill she was treated with royal jelly, "cell salts" (homeopathy), and an herbal concoction brewed by Hanswille. He also treated Lorie with an electromagnetic "vitalizing" machine that "stimulates the blood" and has attachments such as an electrified comb that "livens up the hair." Sonia Atikian testified that they became very concerned about Lorie's condition but that Hanswille assured them that it was normal for clumps of her baby's hair to fall out and not to worry if Lorie didn't gain weight. Hanswille told Sonia that taking Lorie to a hospital would be like "holding a loaded gun to Lorie's head and pulling the trigger."

The Legal Charges

The Atikians were charged with failing to provide the necessities of life for their baby daughter (child neglect). Up until now Hanswille has not been charged with anything. He has angrily complained that he feels like "the accused" but denies that he did anything wrong. He says that he "cannot tell people what to do," that it is up to the parents to make decisions for their children. The judge instructed the jury that it was all right for them to "vent your spleen" over the activities of Hanswille "and his ilk," but neither he nor herbalism were on trial in the death of little Lorie.

The Verdict

On June 12 the Atikians were found guilty of child neglect. Sentencing is scheduled for July 6.

Melthir posted:

Does anyone have anything that shows why you think chiropractors are horeshit. Because I tell you what, I feel like a million bucks after I get my back adjusted. If it is poo poo I would like to know why and what about getting my back adjusted is feeling good.

Tim Raines IRL posted:

Meditation is often derided as "alternative medicine" places like SBM, but in fact meditation was how I got off of benzos/ADs/other drugs that caused me far more problems than they solved.

Smudgie Buggler posted:

I actually don't think cannabis qualifies as herbal medicine in the sense that it ought to give you shits because it's fundamental bullshit non-medicine that hippies insist unclogs your chakras or whatever with some incidental medicinal benefits. Cannabis is just medicine at this point. There are plenty of medicines that are perfectly legitimate (ie. not alternative medicines, just loving medicines) that are derived from plant matter. That shouldn't be an annoying fact. The plant kingdom produces a lot of various chemicals, some of which we've discovered quite legitimately are good at healing illnesses or alleviated symptoms. That ain't bad.

The real bullshit of 'herbal medicine' is the kind sold by snake-oil salesmen to gullible shitheads who are told their child doesn't need antibiotics for that pneumonia don't you know that's just big pharma trying to steal your money no no here just buy this tiny jar of powdered lavender root for a fuckload more than it's worth and have her huff a steam-bath with this poo poo three times a day. That kind of nonsense is dangerous. Cannabis is just good medicine for a lot of people. Don't hate on poo poo that works.

Melthir posted:

Does anyone have anything that shows why you think chiropractors are horeshit. Because I tell you what, I feel like a million bucks after I get my back adjusted. If it is poo poo I would like to know why and what about getting my back adjusted is feeling good.

Tim Raines IRL posted:

If I had a nickel for every time I've been scripted antibiotics for a viral infection, I'd have at least a dollar.

Talmonis posted:

I had a cousin try to convince me that Homeopathy was a legitimate medical pursuit. And I quote:

Cousin: "The thing you've got to realize is that the water remembers."
Me

Oh the holidays are just a hoot with him around.

pentyne posted:

"Chiropractors" are a weird field, because its more or less therapeutic massage, which has a lot of well established benefits, and its been hijacked by quacks who claim they can "re-align" bones and perform other physically impossible things that they then claim cure a wide variety of diseases.

Oh, and your "back adjustment" is just regular stretching. No bones are repositioned in any way and if the chiropractor is telling you he's adjusting your spine never go back there because you might end up with nerve damage from him damaging your body.

duck monster posted:

What I don't understand is why water has the memory of long since diluted out of existence medicine but does not contain the memory of duck poo poo from the dam.

Because I'm pretty sure theres a lot of duck poo poo in fresh water.

duck monster posted:

Chiropractic 'medicine' started off as a sham field , it was never hijacked.

Captain_Maclaine posted:

Didn't the inventor basically hijack his ideas from osteopathy, and claim he'd been given them by an angel or something?

Smudgie Buggler posted:

Why do you keep visiting the doctor with a common cold then? Like, why even bother seeking treatment for something you know or are at least pretty sure is a virus unless it's in danger of killing you?

Tim Raines IRL posted:

I think there's a big difference between using alternative therapies as a first-line defense against serious conditions like cancer, and coming to them after exhausting all the conventional treatments for more ambiguous problems like chronic anxiety or fibromyalgia. I don't know anyone who's gotten better from cancer through juice fasts; I know several people who feel that their psychological problems or fibro is managed better with diet/lifestyle changes, trigger point massage, dry needling, etc than it is with SSRIs/benzodiazepines or tramadol.

Tim Raines IRL posted:

I think there's a big difference between using alternative therapies as a first-line defense against serious conditions like cancer, and coming to them after exhausting all the conventional treatments for more ambiguous problems like chronic anxiety or fibromyalgia.

Tim Raines IRL posted:

My criteria for seeking medical care is "fever over 101 that lasts for more than 48 hours" or "severe or unusual pain". The most recent time that I was given an antibiotic was after experiencing severe ear pain which felt for all the world like an inner ear infection (the likes of which I haven't had since I was ~10). This turned out to be a TMJ problem and not an infection of any kind, but I was still given paper for ABs despite having an ear that looked completely normal through a scope.

CommieGIR posted:

You are missing the point though: A lot of the people that provide these treatments tend to push their treatments as solutions to more threatening and dangerous medical maladies, and that is why homeopathy is kind of an issue.

Tim Raines IRL posted:

I see that as reason to investigate everything on a case-by-case basis (and deal sternly with anyone who's so far out of line that it's legally actionable). Likewise it's increasingly easy to find anecdotes online of people who feel they were severely damaged after being inappropriately given strong psych drugs for very ordinary run-of-the-mill life stresses. Does the mere existence of some number of psychiatrists who push undocumented poly-drug cocktails on people inappropriately mean that the entire field is an issue?

Tim Raines IRL posted:

I see that as reason to investigate everything on a case-by-case basis (and deal sternly with anyone who's so far out of line that it's legally actionable). Likewise it's increasingly easy to find anecdotes online of people who feel they were severely damaged after being inappropriately given strong psych drugs for very ordinary run-of-the-mill life stresses. Does the mere existence of some number of psychiatrists who push undocumented poly-drug cocktails on people inappropriately mean that the entire field is an issue?

Obdicut posted:

What do you mean by 'undocumented'?

CommieGIR posted:

The entire field is an issue. Homeopathy has been well studied. It doesn't work. No amount of special pleading is going to change that.

"Tim Raines IRL" posted:

Placebos work and are very safe; why shouldn't their sale and advocacy be just as allowable as things which are active and potentially much more dangerous?

Tim Raines IRL posted:

Placebos work and are very safe; why shouldn't their sale and advocacy be just as allowable as things which are active and potentially much more dangerous?