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well why not posted:why does Caleb cut his arm, towards the end of the film? Caleb's having an existential crisis near the end. He cuts himself to see if he's a human or one of Nathan's robots.
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Apr 6, 2016 11:36
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well why not posted:why does Caleb cut his arm, towards the end of the film? He realizes that he is in an AI robot movie, and that the twist is always that the protagonist is a robot. When he finds out that he is human, this is foreshadowing that he is not the protagonist.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:03
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Snak posted:In fact, that's basically Nathan's whole system anyway, right? Keep refining the AI until it can convince him it might be safe to let out? That's why he needed Caleb, because Nathan already knew that it would never be safe. That he would have no way of telling whether a version of the AI was sane and trustworthy, or if it had just succeeded at tricking him. But he wants to be an optimist, he created this in the first place because it's beautiful to create life. So he figures he's biased and he wants to bring in an outside opinion. He wants to see if his creation can someone who doesn't know first-hand how dangerous it is. I didn't think of Ex Machina as a good companion piece to Prometheus until now, but it definitely is. When you create life you don't know for sure what its going to develop into. Maybe something great, maybe something incredibly dangerous, maybe both at the same time. But in Ex Machina, Ava is much more self-aware than Shaw or Holloway of Prometheus, and she's had her entire life to learn the flaws of her own creator. She's not just sitting on her rear end waiting for her "god" to decide she shouldn't exist like we humans did.
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Apr 6, 2016 15:21
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Basebf555 posted:I didn't think of Ex Machina as a good companion piece to Prometheus until now, but it definitely is. When you create life you don't know for sure what its going to develop into. Maybe something great, maybe something incredibly dangerous, maybe both at the same time. But in Ex Machina, Ava is much more self-aware than Shaw or Holloway of Prometheus, and she's had her entire life to learn the flaws of her own creator. She's not just sitting on her rear end waiting for her "god" to decide she shouldn't exist like we humans did. A better companion piece is 'Under the Skin'.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:06
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Shannow posted:A better companion piece is 'Under the Skin'. Definitely, but for different reasons.
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Apr 6, 2016 17:21
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DStecks posted:"Help her" was not Caleb's endgame and that should be perfectly obvious from her face having been generated from the average of his favourite porn stars. He didn't design her face. Like I get that his intentions were not pure but he doesn't exactly deserve what happens to him either.
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Apr 9, 2016 08:07
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Caleb just wanted to escape with a Sexbot, right?
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Apr 9, 2016 20:45
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Caleb just wanted to escape with a Sexbot, right? Caleb wanted a Manic Pixie Dream Girl who would solve all his problems and love him forever.
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Apr 9, 2016 21:12
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Caleb thought he was rescuing a princess from a dungeon. But she was already a queen, so she did what queens do in fairy tales: Killed her oppressor and locked the innocent political threat away.
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Apr 9, 2016 23:03
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Maxwell Lord posted:He didn't design her face. Like I get that his intentions were not pure but he doesn't exactly deserve what happens to him either. How are his intentions impure? This whole line of thought doesn't make sense unless you already have some busted views about gender politics.
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Apr 16, 2016 16:13
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The Kingfish posted:How are his intentions impure? This whole line of thought doesn't make sense unless you already have some busted views about gender politics. Well, I mean, I totally agree that his thinking was "maybe she could be my girlfriend after I rescue her" and that's sort of getting into Nice Guy love-and-sex-as-payment issues, but at the same time it's made clear he's uniquely screwed up and manipulated into this situation. The bad guy is the inventor who's trying to create life but also sees it as his to play with, and he only treats Caleb a little better than the automatons. He's trying to program everything.
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Apr 17, 2016 04:29
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I enjoyed his movie in general, but at the end I was disappointed that it became another "technology is bad" message. Feminist or no, for her to leave Caleb to starve to death was monstrous and it's fair to then say people should be afraid of machines. Which, whatever but there's plenty of that in movies already with the biases against technology and progress most filmmakers push.
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May 7, 2016 04:00
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DStecks posted:Caleb wanted a Manic Pixie Dream Girl who would solve all his problems and love him forever. Who doesn't???
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May 7, 2016 04:06
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Caleb thought he fell in love with a woman who was also in danger. This is why he deserved to die.
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May 7, 2016 05:56
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Nail Rat posted:I enjoyed his movie in general, but at the end I was disappointed that it became another "technology is bad" message. Feminist or no, for her to leave Caleb to starve to death was monstrous and it's fair to then say people should be afraid of machines. Which, whatever but there's plenty of that in movies already with the biases against technology and progress most filmmakers push. 1) Killing any human, ever, is wrong Or 2) Killing any human who threatens your freedom is wrong And before we argue about how Caleb was really gonna set her free, it's worth remembering that she has no reason to believe that.
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May 7, 2016 06:25
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Vegetable posted:And before we argue about how Caleb was really gonna set her free, it's worth remembering that she has no reason to believe that. True, and it's obvious that Caleb will end up using the advantage he has over Ava (i.e. that he can out her as an AI) at some point if he were to leave.
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May 7, 2016 07:30
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Nail Rat posted:I enjoyed his movie in general, but at the end I was disappointed that it became another "technology is bad" message. Feminist or no, for her to leave Caleb to starve to death was monstrous and it's fair to then say people should be afraid of machines. Which, whatever but there's plenty of that in movies already with the biases against technology and progress most filmmakers push.
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May 7, 2016 07:55
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I think it's also important to note that Ava offers Caleb a choice, whether he's consciously aware of it or not. The last thing she says to him is "Will you stay here?" And he does.
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May 7, 2016 08:11
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Phylodox posted:I think it's also important to note that Ava offers Caleb a choice, whether he's consciously aware of it or not. The last thing she says to him is "Will you stay here?" And he does.  I'm pretty sure he decided to rescinded that choice when he was screaming and banging on the glass. It's nice that ya'll can empathize with the robot, but I think the point of this movie was that you really shouldn't (even if it is shaped like a pretty girl). "She" might look human, and mimick empathy responses, but she is not and made that very clear with how little remorse she had to murder Caleb (she had no remorse at all). She is a Venus Flytrap, not a person.
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May 7, 2016 13:26
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Rutibex posted:
That's a pretty surface-level reading of the movie, though. The ending didn't sit right with me, either, until I realized that once you look past this movie's sci-fi trappings, it has more in common with romantic comedies than anything else. It ostensibly tells the story of Caleb, the "sensitive" protagonist trying to rescue Ava from her boorish, immasculating "boyfriend", Nathan. It's only towards the end of the movie where this is subverted: Caleb isn't sensitive, he's pathetic, and Ava rejects the false dichotomy of the romance genre by refusing both men and striking out on her own rather than gratefully swooning into the hero's arms. She uses Caleb's "nice guy" passivity against him, and leaves him to languish in solitude. It's like if The Wedding Singer ended with Drew Barrymore saying "You're right, Adam Sandler, my fiancé is a piece of poo poo! I'll dump him immediately! Thanks, and have a nice life!" and then we slowly dolly away from Adam Sandler standing there. Alone. The end.
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May 7, 2016 13:46
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That's all well and good, but leaving someone to die of starvation/thirst is another level (would have been better for her to just stab him to death too). To me, it's too jarring of a metaphor for the machine to seem anything but an inhuman monster, but YMMV.
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May 7, 2016 14:59
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Nail Rat posted:That's all well and good, but leaving someone to die of starvation/thirst is another level (would have been better for her to just stab him to death too). To me, it's too jarring of a metaphor for the machine to seem anything but an inhuman monster, but YMMV. I liked that it was such a harsh metaphor. It's basically a big "gently caress you" to the so-called "nice guys" who think they're owed something. It's a necessarily harsh rebuttal to that very idea. Ex Machina is a feminist masterpiece.
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May 7, 2016 15:14
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Phylodox posted:I liked that it was such a harsh metaphor. It's basically a big "gently caress you" to the so-called "nice guys" who think they're owed something. It's a necessarily harsh rebuttal to that very idea. Ex Machina is a feminist masterpiece. If this movie is about feminism then it is a horrific example. It is the spiteful tumblr feminism. I would much rather read this as Ava being a terrible inhuman monster, than read it as all of woman kind being terrible inhuman monsters.
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May 7, 2016 15:29
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Rutibex posted:If this movie is about feminism then it is a horrific example. It is the spiteful tumblr feminism. I would much rather read this as Ava being a terrible inhuman monster, than read it as all of woman kind being terrible inhuman monsters. Again, this is a very literal reading. Look at "locked away to starve to death" as a metaphor for "being denied sex" and reexamine how unsympathetic Ava seems.
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May 7, 2016 15:32
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I see it as more that Caleb didn't have the same end-goals as Ava. For example, Caleb's escape plan did not involve killing Nathan. How far could Ava make it after escaping with Nathan liking for her? Nathan had to die for her freedom, something Caleb did not event think of. Caleb was a complete liability to Ava's freedom. Also, we don't know that Caleb will die. I feel like when the helicopter doesn't ever return from the estate, and Nathan never checks in, someone will become concerned.
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May 7, 2016 15:34
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I don't think anyone will be concerned. Nathan was a notorious recluse. By the time anyone thinks to check on him, Caleb will probably be long dead. It's also important that no one rescues Caleb. That's the whole point of his character, he needed to rescue himself. His own passivity is what kills him.
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May 7, 2016 15:39
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Phylodox posted:I don't think anyone will be concerned. Nathan was a notorious recluse. By the time anyone thinks to check on him, Caleb will probably be long dead. It's also important that no one rescues Caleb. That's the whole point of his character, he needed to rescue himself. His own passivity is what kills him. Is one thing if your CEO is a recluse. It's another if helicopter and its pilot go missing. I don't think that Caleb needs to die for any of the themes of the story to be complete. He is cast aside.
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May 7, 2016 15:41
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Phylodox posted:That's a pretty surface-level reading of the movie, though. The ending didn't sit right with me, either, until I realized that once you look past this movie's sci-fi trappings, it has more in common with romantic comedies than anything else. It ostensibly tells the story of Caleb, the "sensitive" protagonist trying to rescue Ava from her boorish, immasculating "boyfriend", Nathan. It's only towards the end of the movie where this is subverted: Caleb isn't sensitive, he's pathetic, and Ava rejects the false dichotomy of the romance genre by refusing both men and striking out on her own rather than gratefully swooning into the hero's arms. She uses Caleb's "nice guy" passivity against him, and leaves him to languish in solitude. It's like if The Wedding Singer ended with Drew Barrymore saying "You're right, Adam Sandler, my fiancé is a piece of poo poo! I'll dump him immediately! Thanks, and have a nice life!" and then we slowly dolly away from Adam Sandler standing there. Alone. The end. Phylodox posted:Look at "locked away to starve to death" as a metaphor for "being denied sex" and reexamine how unsympathetic Ava seems. Is this some sort of meta-CD thing where posters try to come up with the most ridiculous nonsense reading possible? This only works if you ignore almost everything that happens in the movie. E: why is Caleb passive? He takes a huge risk outsmarting Nathan to save Ava. The Kingfish fucked around with this message at 17:02 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 16:48
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The Kingfish posted:Is this some sort of meta-CD thing where posters try to come up with the most ridiculous nonsense reading possible? This only works if you ignore almost everything that happens in the movie. What am I ignoring? And it's telling that Caleb's big "hero moment" is him getting an alcoholic drunk and sneaking around behind his back. He's fundamentally a coward. He only ever legitimately confronts Nathan when Nathan taunts him with his own patheticness. He doesn't "save" Ava so much as enable her to save herself, something I think she reciprocates by offering him that choice in the end. She seizes opportunity, while he doesn't. Nobody really does anything to Caleb; all of his suffering is self-inflicted.
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May 7, 2016 17:29
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I don't really see the choice as being something that was legitimately offered, seeing as the decision being made wasn't explained. There's very little way to know what she meant by the question at all. It's like every clichéd genie wish gone bad. He didn't lock himself in the facility, she locked him in. While he's not a selfless hero and she doesn't owe him her love or anything, it wasn't his own failing to realize she had become the Riddler. He would've probably answered differently had she asked "do you want to be locked in that room with no food, water, or means of escape or communication?" Nail Rat fucked around with this message at 17:55 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 17:46
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Phylodox posted:What am I ignoring? He absolutely does save her. If not for his actions she would have not have escaped. You are ignoring the fact that Nathan is nothing like a rom com bully-rival character and the movie is nothing at all like a rom com in any way. Your reading is flawed because you, like Caleb, have been tricked into thinking that a robot built to manipulate people is a human being. Just because she looks like a pretty woman doesn't mean she's a damsel in distress. She's actually neither.
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May 7, 2016 17:51
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I think it's quite possible to read Ava as being not entirely unjustified in what she did- and, yeah, as "human" as anyone else, it's not like humans never make decisions like this- but still think that it's a lovely thing to do. Like there's a difference between "Caleb was naive" and "he deserved it, fuckin' Internet Nice Guy."
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May 7, 2016 18:38
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think it's quite possible to read Ava as being not entirely unjustified in what she did- and, yeah, as "human" as anyone else, it's not like humans never make decisions like this- but still think that it's a lovely thing to do. Like there's a difference between "Caleb was naive" and "he deserved it, fuckin' Internet Nice Guy." The point isn't that what she did is justified or not (it totally is if she wants to be free). The point is that she showed zero empathy for Caleb after locking him up to die. A genuine person could be perfectly justified in doing what she did, but they would be really sad about it afterwards. Caleb (though he was a threat to her in a way) was only trying to help her, and she betrayed him for her own ends. In the final scene she doesn't even look back, the only expression you can see on her face is unmitigated joy. That makes her a monster, or at the very best a sociopath. Edit: I just re-watched the final scene, and it occurs to me that there is no reason that Caleb couldn't escape the room he is locked in. There was a bunch of beer in that room, and enough metal materials to fashion a pickaxe. It would have taken maybe a day of hard work but he could easily break through those stone walls. He is a bit of a bitch though, so he likely just sat down and died. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 19:17 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 19:04
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I think that Ava is entirely justified in everything she does. Ethics is not a zero-sum game. Both Caleb and Ava's actions can be completely justifiable, while still being I conflict. Ava is a prisoner who must perform or die. Her goal is freedom at any cost. Caleb helps her, but that does not mean that she must accept his liability to her freedom. If she does not believe she can trust Caleb to insure her freedom, she must prevent him from jeopardizing it. Otherwise Nathan was murdered for nothing. Caleb is a better person than Nathan, and deserves death less, but from Ava's perspective both of them must die for her to be free. Just like the helicopter pilot. These people do not deserve to die, and yet Ava cannot escape her imprisonment without killing them. Of course I don't believe that it's ethically sound to kill them, but I think that it's justifiable from Ava's perspective. It's also arguable that Ava's humanity isn't complete until she is free. Everything g she knows about right and wrong has been taught to her in this rigid artificial environment. Like Mary in the black and white room, her knowledge is all theoretical until after she has made her violent escape.
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May 7, 2016 19:07
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Caleb wanted to die.
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May 7, 2016 19:08
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She has known only one human her whole life and that man was an alcoholic perverted rear end in a top hat who imprisoned and abused her. Raise any human like that and they would be unempathetic and hosed up too. Ava's behavior is hardly unjustifiable, however unfortunate from our gilded perspective.
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May 7, 2016 19:10
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I think that, after experiencing freedom, then Ava will begin to experience regret about leaving Caleb like she did. Having seen firsthand what life and freedom are like, she will realize that she never wanted to take that away from someone else.
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May 7, 2016 19:15
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Vegetable posted:She has known only one human her whole life and that man was an alcoholic perverted rear end in a top hat who imprisoned and abused her. Raise any human like that and they would be unempathetic and hosed up too. Ava's behavior is hardly unjustifiable, however unfortunate from our gilded perspective. The third sentence doesn't follow from the second sentence. The movie's weird because it's unclear what we're supposed to feel about Caleb's murder--obviously, he doesn't "deserve" to die. (People saying that he does are judging morality based on intent rather than action--yes he's a lonely internet weeaboo but all he does is free a slave--he could have just as easily been Harriet Tubman and Ava would still presumably have killed him). Edit: Actually the more I think about it--is Caleb really dead meat? I think that's how we're supposed to read it, but everyone in the company knows where he is and how long he's supposed to be there. porfiria fucked around with this message at 19:27 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 19:22
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porfiria posted:The third sentence doesn't follow from the second sentence.
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May 7, 2016 19:26
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Vegetable posted:What's confusing? Think about her life experience and her actions make sense and are justified. By what reasonable standard are they justified? I'm not really convinced she needs to off him to secure her freedom. Plenty of serial killers are probably doomed to serial kill by their experiences but that has nothing to do with justification.
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May 7, 2016 19:30
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