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If that were the case they wouldn't have signed contracts weeks before the election imo. The sheer loving balls out corruption of that is ridiculous.
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Nov 30, 2014 06:57
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I think calling the Nordic Model anti-feminist isn't defensible, but I can see why people would wonder on attitudes to sex work when your solution to specific problems is pretty much maintaining the current situation which you agree is sub-optimal. It is essentially trying to stop the problem of violent drug cartels by doing street arrests of users. So the Nordic Model on climate change would go something like; We need to make China and India stop producing CO2 because there is little will to do it here?
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Nov 30, 2014 07:12
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hiddenmovement posted:local councils whine about having to actually employ people to look into the problem (along with the legitimate gripe that getting a glorified ticket inspector to deal with quasi organized crime types is not going work).
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Nov 30, 2014 07:17
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lightinwater posted:Sex Trafficking is illegal, violence against sex workers is illegal. How is keeping prostitution illegal going to help? If the authorities are unmotivated now do you believe that legalisation will make them less motivated? Prohibition in an ongoing industry increases the criminality of those involved If you read the link I posted you'd see that intercepted communications between traffickers have them saying that there's no point operating in countries employing the Nordic Model. So, nope.
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Nov 30, 2014 07:29
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Fruity Gordo posted:If you read the link I posted you'd see that intercepted communications between traffickers have them saying that there's no point operating in countries employing the Nordic Model. So, nope. So making something already illegal for them to do, the same amount of illegal for them, slightly less illegal for the people they are exploiting (and deliberately keep in the dark on all matters) makes them stop? Solution to the drug war; low level dealing is now legal, everything else stays as before
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Nov 30, 2014 07:33
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Fruity Gordo I will donate $20 to the charity of your choice for you to post that article on the NSWYG page and make the sort of reasoned defence of it that you are now.
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Nov 30, 2014 07:41
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You're really comparing apples and oranges with that one
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Nov 30, 2014 07:42
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The comparison to the drug market isn't really valid, as the victims of the drug industry are generally the customers, which is not at all the case in the sex industry, where the workers are the victims. In both situations, policies which make it illegal to be the victim are dumb, which is why arresting drug users is bad policy, and arresting prostitutes is bad policy. In both cases you're just punishing the victims.
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Nov 30, 2014 07:43
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Splode posted:in the sex industry, where the workers are the victims Except that's false, because saying all sex workers are victims because of the ones who are sex trafficked is like saying all factory workers are victims because of the ones exploited in sweatshops.
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Nov 30, 2014 07:47
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NTRabbit posted:Except that's false, because saying all sex workers are victims because of the ones who are sex trafficked is like saying all factory workers are victims because of the ones exploited in sweatshops. Not wrong, because by the Nordic model's logic all sex workers ARE victims. It's also irrelevant to my point: not all drug users are victims either. I meant which group in the industry contains the victims. There, happy now? edit: all factory workers are exploited comrade.  
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Nov 30, 2014 07:56
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lightinwater posted:I think calling the Nordic Model anti-feminist isn't defensible, but I can see why people would wonder on attitudes to sex work when your solution to specific problems is pretty much maintaining the current situation which you agree is sub-optimal. It is essentially trying to stop the problem of violent drug cartels by doing street arrests of users. Uhhhh, a) I never said maintaining the status quo was tolerable, but that the Nordic Model looks like a very tolerable stopgap, and b) wtf are these analogies?
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Nov 30, 2014 08:00
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T-1000 posted:Fruity Gordo I will donate $20 to the charity of your choice for you to post that article on the NSWYG page and make the sort of reasoned defence of it that you are now. Haha I did post that article a couple of weeks ago but the only time I'm going to bother seriously trying to have this conversation with NSWYG is in a meeting with a progressive speaking list.
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Nov 30, 2014 08:02
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Splode posted:edit: all factory workers are exploited comrade. ASIO isn't catching my metadata so easily 
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Nov 30, 2014 08:02
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I would have said that many of the users of illegal drugs are addicts and couldnt give the first flying gently caress about getting done for possession (at least in the heat of the moment), but people buying sex are altogether more apprehensive and level headed, and far more likely to just go to a bar and try their luck buying drinks when threatened with arrest. Also drug buys happen in a heart beat, there is substantially more risk of you getting caught with your pants down around your ankles buying sex. There are ground level, immediate reasons why the threat of being arrested for buying sex is much more severe than the risk of getting arrested for buying drugs. EDIT: Shame. I Forgot about shame. A very powerful motivator. hiddenmovement fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 08:03
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lightinwater posted:So making something already illegal for them to do, the same amount of illegal for them, slightly less illegal for the people they are exploiting (and deliberately keep in the dark on all matters) makes them stop? This is incoherent.
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Nov 30, 2014 08:06
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lightinwater posted:Solution to the drug war; low level dealing is now legal, everything else stays as before I agree, by letting the low level dealing go you can focus enforcement efforts further up the chain and at the source.
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Nov 30, 2014 08:06
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Low level dealing is legal, and high level dealing is nationalized and organized by the government. 
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Nov 30, 2014 08:17
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hiddenmovement posted:I would have said that many of the users of illegal drugs are addicts and couldnt give the first flying gently caress about getting done for possession (at least in the heat of the moment), but people buying sex are altogether more apprehensive and level headed, and far more likely to just go to a bar and try their luck buying drinks when threatened with arrest. Yup, not to mention how grotty it is to conflate drug addiction and buying chemicals with renting a human body to have sex with. That's less than a hop, skip and a jump away from 'look mate boys will be boys'. Kollontai was all over this 100 years ago, but I guess the Bolsheviks didn't have to deal with libertarian lifestylism and pimps having their own political parties and marketing wings. https://www.marxists.org/archive/kollonta/1921/prostitution.htm http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=618
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Nov 30, 2014 08:25
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Tldr: the Bolsheviks knew how loving dangerous the commodification of sexuality is to women's liberation, and nothing has changed. In fact, it's probably gotten worse. Prostitution is never, ever going to be 'a job' like any other job unless I'm forgetting another profession where misappropriation of goods and services is actually a loving violent crime.
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Nov 30, 2014 08:33
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quote:Prostitution is I naked act of material calculation which leaves no room for considerations of love and passion. I can't really buy into an argument which is, at least in part, predicated on such an unscientific and nebulous concept as 'love'
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Nov 30, 2014 08:37
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NTRabbit posted:I can't really buy into an argument which is, at least in part, predicated on such an unscientific and nebulous concept as 'love' Are you being wilfully obtuse? "LOVE ISN'T DEFINABLE" is such a bizarre position to fall back to. Are you trying to say that maybe prostitutes and their clients are in love? Is that the point you're making? Or do you not have a point? edit: NTRabbit discusses the sex industry and the Nordic model in song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhrBDcQq2DM
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Nov 30, 2014 08:51
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Splode posted:Are you being wilfully obtuse? I'm too busy reading notes for an exam to pull out everything I disagreed with, and I may have skimmed the piece a little, but that line at the end suggesting that by ending prostitution we allow love and passion to take over makes no sense to me at all. I genuinely do not understand love as a concept, while passion is simply strong desire for something and exists entirely independent of any of the above.
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Nov 30, 2014 08:56
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NTRabbit posted:I genuinely do not understand love as a concept, 
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Nov 30, 2014 08:58
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I thought that exact line was arguing the exact opposite, stating that one should ignore appeals to the contrary when people claim that prostitution is anything other than cold, calculated trade. I mean there's a lot of silly poo poo in that article (free love under communism baby woooo!) so it's kinda weird to object to that one.
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Nov 30, 2014 09:04
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hiddenmovement posted:I thought that exact line was arguing the exact opposite, stating that one should ignore appeals to the contrary when people claim that prostitution is anything other than cold, calculated trade. There was more, but emotional calls like that irk me, and I really need to pass this lovely journalism course that tries to pretend the field is still at all noble and ethical... but fine, it's also taking all kinds of prostitution and putting them under the trafficking banner, makes no allowance for male or transgender prostitutes, and automatically assumes all sex workers are doing the job out of desperation for money due to a lack of "normal labour".
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Nov 30, 2014 09:17
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Nibbles! posted:They campaigned on increasing public sector pay, I think Baillieu even made the pledge to have the highest paid teachers in the country. Yes I recall the Baillieu pledge, gently caress all happened there, didn't it. I have teacher friends who moved to NSW, one joined the freaking airforce after two years of job hunting. The TAFE thing is what downed them in Bendigo for sure, and we're the lucky ones who might get some state funding back, but the state response was too little too late and on top of that, to blame the ALP for the cuts when it was so obviously the Abbott govt just got up people's noses. But why doesn't media mention it? Along with health, it's a slam-dunk influence on the election, and I'm astonished that the Guardian is trying to ignore it. Note how it is just Abbott who's the toxic effect, not the thrust of his government's budget which still threatens state funding. They report the Labor position that it's obviously the budget but commentary like Alcorn's just avoids the whole subject. The SMH rushed a summary here but note it's about the arguments against the influence, and again TAFE isn't mentioned. I also think it's unnecessarily nice to the Napthine government, they were after all in a position to do something about it. And oddly it chimes with the swill The Blot is selling ewe2 fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 09:22
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hiddenmovement posted:I thought that exact line was arguing the exact opposite, stating that one should ignore appeals to the contrary when people claim that prostitution is anything other than cold, calculated trade. NTRabbit posted:There was more, but emotional calls like that irk me, and I really need to pass this lovely journalism course that tries to pretend the field is still at all noble and ethical... but fine, it's also taking all kinds of prostitution and putting them under the trafficking banner, makes no allowance for male or transgender prostitutes, and automatically assumes all sex workers are doing the job out of desperation for money due to a lack of "normal labour". It was the opposite to an appeal for an emotion, and was in fact a warning that appeals to emotion are bullshit in this subject. Male and transgender prostitutes are not treated much better by society than prostitutes who are women, and your last line has been contested by Fruity Gordo at least three times on this page, so I'm not going to bother.
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Nov 30, 2014 09:22
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Splode posted:It was the opposite to an appeal for an emotion, and was in fact a warning that appeals to emotion are bullshit in this subject. I don't see it that way. quote:Prostitution is terrible because it is an act of violence by the woman upon herself in the name of material gain. Prostitution is I naked act of material calculation which leaves no room for considerations of love and passion. Where passion and attraction begin, prostitution ends. Under communism, prostitution and the contemporary family will disappear. Healthy, joyful and free relationships between the sexes will develop. A new generation will come into being, independent and courageous and with a strong sense of the collective: a generation which places the good of the collective above all else. It's explicitly stating that prostitution is bad because it hinders the collective for reasons, and once prostituion is removed from communist society (along with the family unit) the collective will become stronger as love and passion lead to better relationships. I'm in favour of full legalisation of sex work. In relation to what started this, what the NSW Young Greens did was lovely for party unity, and if I was a Green I'd probably be annoyed, but if I was a Green I'd also be equally annoyed that my party preselected a strong advocate of the notably bad Nordic system. On the other hand, no single party ever meets all of my views, pick the one that has the most.
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Nov 30, 2014 09:29
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Your ABC posted:Victoria's National Party will review its coalition arrangement with the Liberals in wake of "grim" election results, the ABC understands. The Victorian election delivered disappointing results for the National Party. Looks like the national might split from the Libs again. Did it before just after the Kennett loss. With the rise of the small parties, Libs constantly taking advantage of the nationals, and decline of seats of the nationals actually hold, it seems like theirs little point for the nats in continuing it.
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Nov 30, 2014 09:29
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NTRabbit posted:I don't see it that way. Can you explain why the Nordic system is bad?
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Nov 30, 2014 09:44
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Thanks for linking that article Fruity, it was a good read.
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Nov 30, 2014 09:47
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDvtwXSEJVA
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Nov 30, 2014 09:55
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GoldStandardConure posted:Thanks for linking that article Fruity, it was a good read. Ditto, it makes NTRabbit's strawmen look increasingly desperate.
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Nov 30, 2014 10:01
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NTRabbit posted:There was more, but emotional calls like that irk me, and I really need to pass this lovely journalism course that tries to pretend the field is still at all noble and ethical... but fine, it's also taking all kinds of prostitution and putting them under the trafficking banner, makes no allowance for male or transgender prostitutes, and automatically assumes all sex workers are doing the job out of desperation for money due to a lack of "normal labour". There's a thing that journalists do where they check sources, and if you'd done that, you would have noted that this was a speech, delivered at a Soviet women's conference, in 1921.
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Nov 30, 2014 10:05
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Fruity Gordo posted:There's a thing that journalists do where they check sources, and if you'd done that, you would have noted that this was a speech, delivered at a Soviet women's conference, in 1921. I did notice that, is that supposed to mean something?
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Nov 30, 2014 10:09
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Reachtel State QLD Poll (2012 changes) LNP 39.2 (-10.45) ALP 37.3 (+10.64) GRN 7.9 (+0.47) PUP 6.5 (+6.5) OTH 9.1 (-7.05) TPP ALP 51 (+13.8) LNP 49 (-13.8) 
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Nov 30, 2014 10:18
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So NTRabbit isn't really contributing at this point, so let me argue against the Nordic model myself. So I'm beginning with the position that the sex industry is bad and we'd like to eliminate it entirely if we could, as nobody has yet beaten the points raised by FG and by the speaker in 1921. I think my biggest concern with the system is that it may not be feasible in reality. So, the way it works is that the demand for prostitutes is lowered by making it illegal to be a customer. We can be pretty sure this works. Theoretically, it works because customers are generally in their right mind and can make rational decisions about whether or not to risk it. Unlike drugs or alcohol, there's no chemical addictions. If there were, making it illegal would just drive it underground, resulting in a larger and shadier sex industry. Practically, FG mentioned that sex traffickers have been caught saying not to bother trafficking into countries using the Nordic model. This implies the demand isn't high enough for it to be worth the risk and expense. But, we also want to make the sex industry workers, operators and owners legal. This allows us to regulate the industry, and prevent operators from exploiting the workers. Great, sounds good in theory, but my concern is we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. We want it to be both legal and illegal, but how do you actually enforce that? Realistically, the Police can't just patrol around brothels and check they're meeting regulations, because they'd have to arrest all of the customers. That's not going to work, as then brothel owners will have to run illegal, unregistered secret brothels to protect their customers if they want to make any money. At this point we may have made prostitution entirely illegal, as the rights of sex workers can't be protected if they're operating in illegal, secret underground brothels.
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Nov 30, 2014 10:26
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ewe2 posted:Yes I recall the Baillieu pledge, gently caress all happened there, didn't it. I have teacher friends who moved to NSW, one joined the freaking airforce after two years of job hunting. I was surprised too, I think the only place I saw it mentioned was in Labor campaign ads. I would have thought, certainly from the News Ltd side of things, that it wasn't mentioned simply so as to not remind the electorate. That doesn't explain other outlets though.
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Nov 30, 2014 10:33
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Splode posted:But, we also want to make the sex industry workers, operators and owners legal. This allows us to regulate the industry, and prevent operators from exploiting the workers.
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Nov 30, 2014 10:35
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Splode posted:Great, sounds good in theory, but my concern is we're trying to have our cake and eat it too. We want it to be both legal and illegal, but how do you actually enforce that? Realistically, the Police can't just patrol around brothels and check they're meeting regulations, because they'd have to arrest all of the customers. That's not going to work, as then brothel owners will have to run illegal, unregistered secret brothels to protect their customers if they want to make any money. At this point we may have made prostitution entirely illegal, as the rights of sex workers can't be protected if they're operating in illegal, secret underground brothels. Police do exactly that with bars and nightclubs. They pop in as a group of 3-5, check the bouncers, make sure no one is acting up, and that the bar staff are following their obligations under their liquor licence. If they come across an above ground brothel that's misbehaving, it gets fined. If they come across an underground one, everyone is issued an on the spot fine or summons to appear in court. You don't have to violently hurl everyone into the divvy van, there are other ways of punishing illegal activity. Sole trading would be an issue though. EDIT: I just realized how you can immediately get political support for the Nordic model and fund the police resources it requires : Fines. All the fines. All of them..... EDIT 2: I think it would be good if brothels were forced to publically declare they were brothels as well. There are dozens of them in South Melbourne but no one would know walking past them. Now I understand why the brothel owner wants to offer discretion but if gaming halls and pubs need to display their licences on the wall and have security guards prominently placed at the entrance to venues, I don't see why the sex industry should be any different. hiddenmovement fucked around with this message at 10:47 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 10:35
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