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I think having a more representational parliament also helps, though obviously this has only been a factor since 1999. There's not so much need for every election to be Labour vs. the Tories, and when it's not possible for the Tories to control absolutely everything with 35% of the vote or so there's a bit less of a need to pander to their voters. We had actual socialists elected at one point, even.
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Nov 2, 2014 11:08
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keep punching joe posted:general distrust of Tories, which stretches back for centuries. Not necessarily. Scotland had an awful lot of Conservative/Unionist seats prior to Thatcher. She was the big turning point. Acaila posted:I'd be delighted if the Lib Dems lost their hold on the north, they do sod all for their constituencies from all I've seen. They're sometimes alright at the very local level. My Lib Dem councillors are incredibly nice people and seem to really care about the community based on what they say and write. They're much better than the local Labour/Tory ones who just spend their whole time trying to undermine each other. Not that I'd ever vote Lib Dem now mind, their national presence is toxic.
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Nov 2, 2014 13:12
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ThomasPaine posted:Not necessarily. Scotland had an awful lot of Conservative/Unionist seats prior to Thatcher. She was the big turning point. Maybe in recent memory, but doesn't the word Torie itself derive from the Irish/Scots Gaelic for highwayman.
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Nov 2, 2014 13:18
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keep punching joe posted:Maybe in recent memory, but doesn't the word Torie itself derive from the Irish/Scots Gaelic for highwayman. It does, but it looks like it was 'reclaimed' quite early and lost its pejorative meaning. It just came to refer to anyone who was heavily conservative and pro-monarchy, as opposed to Whigs who were seen as more reformist (both terms seem to have come out of the civil war). So there were plenty of Tories in Scotland, because there were plenty of traditional monarchists (growing into what we'd now see as conservatives). I don't think there's any reason to believe there was a substantial regional division before Thatcher. Even episodes like Red Clydeside tend to be overblown, and based around a few very loud (but brilliant) figures. Regardless, early 20th C Scottish socialism tended to be focused around the industrial cities (so effectively Glasgow, Dundee, and some of the smaller centres in Fife etc.), while the countryside tended to be highly agrarian and backward-looking. You have to remember that most of the rural areas were owned by powerful landowners and aristocrats and that the peasantry had been more or less exported to the cities during the clearances in a lot of cases. They're natually Tory areas because of this. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Nov 2, 2014 |
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Nov 2, 2014 13:29
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ThomasPaine posted:Not necessarily. Scotland had an awful lot of Conservative/Unionist seats prior to Thatcher. She was the big turning point. Both true and not true: while the biggest decline of the party was between 1983 and 1987 (losing 11 seats), they actually gained a seat in 1992 and weren't routed in Scotland until 1997. Similarly, the party had been steadily declining since last getting a majority in Scotland in 1955. Thatcher definitely accelerated the demise, but I would argue that the merger of the Unionist party with the Conservatives and loss of a Scottish-specific type of centre-right politics (alongside the increasing strength of the opposition parties) was what did them in.
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Nov 2, 2014 13:42
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ThomasPaine posted:Regardless, early 20th C Scottish socialism tended to be focused around the industrial cities (so effectively Glasgow, Dundee, and some of the smaller centres in Fife etc.), while the countryside tended to be highly agrarian and backward-looking. You have to remember that most of the rural areas were owned by powerful landowners and aristocrats and that the peasantry had been more or less exported to the cities during the clearances in a lot of cases. They're natually Tory areas because of this. This has a lot of truth as I understand it. That's why even after rejecting the Tories, those areas have gone Lib Dem or SNP, rather than heading for the socialist way. Even in the referendum, there were mutterings of discontent because the wealthy landowners were using all their space to put up huge No banners along main roads (Someone suggested that's why Inverness went so mad for Yes signs - driving up the A9 pissed them all off so much that they had to be very visibly contrary).
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Nov 2, 2014 13:51
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baronvonsabre posted:I would argue that the merger of the Unionist party with the Conservatives and loss of a Scottish-specific type of centre-right politics (alongside the increasing strength of the opposition parties) was what did them in. This could well be true and I hadn't thought of it. Point is, Scotland has just as much right-wing history as it has left.
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Nov 2, 2014 14:22
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If the SNP splits rather than just gliding to the right then a new, palatable right wing party is all but certain to emerge. Additionally UKIP have shown that with a rebrand that shifts you even further to the right you can pick up large numbers of votes from people who find the Tories to be toxic. If some enterprising members of the Scottish Tory party very publicly broke from it and founded the Scottish Democrats or whatever they'd likely start to do much better.
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Nov 2, 2014 14:44
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There were mutterings of that in the last Scottish Tory leadership election but it came to nothing. Not much to support SNP gliding to the right though. There are claims that Sturgeon will be the most left wing First Minister ever (I'm unconvinced, but if there's a move to the right, it's apparently completely escaping the notice of all commentators), and the tripling of the membership happened in an era of the SNP outflanking SLAB on the left and running an independence campaign chock full of social justice ideals.
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Nov 2, 2014 14:50
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Acaila posted:There were mutterings of that in the last Scottish Tory leadership election but it came to nothing. I'm not an SNP voter by any means but Nicola Sturgeon is solid and in many respects a proper left-winger. I'm very glad she's going to be FM.
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Nov 2, 2014 15:16
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ReV VAdAUL posted:If the SNP splits rather than just gliding to the right then a new, palatable right wing party is all but certain to emerge. Additionally UKIP have shown that with a rebrand that shifts you even further to the right you can pick up large numbers of votes from people who find the Tories to be toxic. If some enterprising members of the Scottish Tory party very publicly broke from it and founded the Scottish Democrats or whatever they'd likely start to do much better. That's quite a big if. IF the SNP splits, sure, I could see a right wing option in Scotland. But I don't expect the SNP to split at any point in the near future unless Sturgeon is secretly a Leninist. In which case she's done a very good job hiding that fact until this point. If Scotland had voted yes then I expected the SNP to go the way of the dodo, but for most sane people that issue has been kicked to the curb for at least a decade if not a generation. And so the SNP will continue to exist as a broad church thats leadership is currently somewhat centre-left & populist in a way that Labour hasn't been for quite some time. Dreaming about the SNP splintering in the near future is about as worthwhile as the 45 dreaming of another indy referendum tomorrow & this time we'll win it, honest.
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Nov 2, 2014 15:22
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ThomasPaine posted:I'm not an SNP voter by any means but Nicola Sturgeon is solid and in many respects a proper left-winger. I'm very glad she's going to be FM. Not that I'm slagging her, but in what respects would you say she's a proper left-winger?
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Nov 2, 2014 15:45
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It's not looking good for Murphy, nobody's willing to step aside and let him run for MSP. http://www.heraldscotland.com/polit...campaign=buffer quote:Ken Macintosh, Hugh Henry and John Pentland all insisted they would seek re-election at the 2016 Scottish poll, leaving Murphy struggling to find a route into Holyrood.
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Nov 2, 2014 15:52
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Acaila posted:Not that I'm slagging her, but in what respects would you say she's a proper left-winger? Maybe it's the wrong word. She's clearly very concerned about poverty and doing what she can for those worse off, which should translate into left-wing policies. I'm not saying she's actually a communist or anything, but she's a lot less cynical and careerist than most politicians. I agree that she probably won't rock the boat all that much, but within a broadly orthodox framework I think she'll tack towards the left.
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Nov 2, 2014 15:52
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Eh, if she were a proper left-winger I'd be looking for things with a bit more lefty ideological clout behind them. You never hear her or anyone from the SNP talking about class struggle! They've promoted populist policies on things like education and health, but they don't really have a track record of real leftist thought, more trying to win over Labour voters. Though I did note Sturgeon getting published in Scottish Left Review recently. The last line of that Herald article though. There's truth there, Murphy is not a nice person and he's not the person to get Scotland behind Labour again, let alone the party behind him. If he manages to win the votes, I think Labour as we've all thought of it is officially gone  .
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Nov 2, 2014 16:12
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The left is slightly broader than angry students bellowing about class war.
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Nov 2, 2014 16:16
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Acaila posted:Eh, if she were a proper left-winger I'd be looking for things with a bit more lefty ideological clout behind them. You never hear her or anyone from the SNP talking about class struggle! They've promoted populist policies on things like education and health, but they don't really have a track record of real leftist thought, more trying to win over Labour voters. Though I did note Sturgeon getting published in Scottish Left Review recently. She certainly isn't an 'official' left-winger, but on those fronts of education/health I for one would much rather someone walked the walk rather than talked the talk, if you know what I mean. Any progress is good. On Murphy I refuse to believe he's going to win. Sure, the papers and BBC are behind him but Findlay's the one getting union support and there's no way Labour can be stupid enough to pick the worst Blairite of the lot, is there?
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Nov 2, 2014 16:17
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Call me old fashioned, but I think you need to talk the talk and walk the walk. Otherwise, like the timing of the free prescriptions (which I think is a great policy don't get me wrong), it comes across as populist vote grabbing rather than actual ideological left policies. The whole idea of her being on the left of the SNP just seems to be this myth created to win over those who still instinctively see the SNP in their pre-Salmond "Tartan Tories" guise. Now myths can have a basis in fact, but I am very much still waiting for any sort of solid evidence of her being more left than any former FM. Also considering recent discussion on the thread, isn't it interesting that the worst you can call Scottish Labour and the SNP are Red Tories and Tartan Tories?  forkboy84 posted:The left is slightly broader than angry students bellowing about class war. Since neither I, nor any of my leftie comrades are angry bellowing students, I'm quite aware of that 
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Nov 2, 2014 16:27
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Obliterati posted:She certainly isn't an 'official' left-winger, but on those fronts of education/health I for one would much rather someone walked the walk rather than talked the talk, if you know what I mean. Any progress is good. Otoh Ed Milliband had Union backing and he's not doing terribly well
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Nov 2, 2014 16:37
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It would definitely be fair to adopt a 'wait and see' attitude on that but yes I don't see Sturgeon singing the Internationale any time soon. Anecdotally it seems like a lot of SNP joiners are Labour refugees so if the old guard doesn't want to go left they're going to have something of a problem.Burqa King posted:Otoh Ed Milliband had Union backing and he's not doing terribly well He did win the leadership election though. I don't mean that Findlay would necessarily be a good leader but he must be better than Murphy.
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Nov 2, 2014 16:37
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I've actually been shocked at a couple of proper Old Labour activists I know joining the SNP within 48 hours of the referendum. I'm contented that it's not the path for me, and that I belong in a party whose left-wing credentials are clear, but time will tell where that party is. The other reason being, and this is more relevant to Labour refugees, is that the current setup of the SNP gives a huge amount of power to the leader and makes it difficult for ordinary members to effect a lot of change. The comment about Sturgeon singing the Internationale reminds me of the Sky News debate for the UK Labour leadership election. The final question from the audience of Labour members was a nice old lady who asked the leadership hopefuls "What are the words to the third verse of the Red Flag?". None of them offered an answer, whether through ignorance or not wanting to seem like a leftie. My dear old mum has often said anyone who didn't know the words to that or the Internationale would have been turfed out of their local Labour meetings back in the day!
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Nov 2, 2014 17:25
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Kezia Dugdale has confirmed she will be running for Labour deputy.
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Nov 2, 2014 18:14
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's not looking good for Murphy, nobody's willing to step aside and let him run for MSP. So....Murphy is the UK-equivalent of Mitt Romney? 
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Nov 2, 2014 18:44
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Alistair Darling is standing down as an MP at the general election. No doubt prior to a swift bump upstairs. Be interested to see who they get to run for it locally - swore I'd never vote for him after the referendum.
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Nov 2, 2014 20:35
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Burqa King posted:SO why does Scotland tend to the left in politics? Is it because they don't have a lot of immigration compared to England do you think? Man that seems like a stupid reason to jump to. Have you just been reading about immigrants a lot lately or something? Its a bit of a shame Salmond is gone, since he was a cheery chappy. Leaving when he did was super canny though, I feel like he cemented his position as easily best modern major politician in the UK. With an international politician rating of: adequate and somewhat professional (about seven levels higher than the next best, embarassingly, Farage). I assume we'll see more swings towards Yes now that it isn't on the table and now that "the big three" have turned out to be making all that vow poo poo up but it really doesn't matter. Britain had a nearly disastrous flirt with democracy and nothing like that is ever gonna happen again.
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Nov 2, 2014 20:37
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It's been commented that by resigning so quickly, Salmond forced the media to abort their planned focus on woe and gloom for the SNP and immediately start having to eulogise his great achievements. A nice little kicker. I wonder if he will decide to go for a Westminster seat after all. With the gains the SNP seem likely to make by even conservative estimates, he could get out of Sturgeon's hair and have a whale of a time getting it right up the posh boys of Westminster again.
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Nov 2, 2014 20:50
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There's always somebody ready to describe Salmond's latest action, comment or fart as being part of some grand political scheme. I can't think of another western politician that inspires such sycophancy it's nauseating.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:00
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Pissflaps posted:I can't think of another western politician that inspires such sycophancy it's nauseating. Do yourself a favour then, don't watch any of the BBC coverage of Jim Murphy's leadership bid.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:33
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Pissflaps posted:There's always somebody ready to describe Salmond's latest action, comment or fart as being part of some grand political scheme. I don't even like the guy. He is clever and a capable politician and he's done well for Scotland generally and doesn't seem like a horrible person, but I don't *like* him or his politics let alone behave in a sycophantic manner towards him. I don't think having politicians you can vaguely respect is a bad thing, but hey, that's Pissflaps for ya  Murphy though, yeah. Like, I may not agree with Salmond but he seems to actually do what he thinks is right, whereas Murphy is just a powerhungry slimy eejit.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:47
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Don't be so sensitive I was referring to the comments you were describing in your post.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:54
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Alex Salmond is a national treasure, we should have an official Alex Salmond day.
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Nov 2, 2014 21:57
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keep punching joe posted:Alex Salmond is a national treasure, we should have an official Alex Salmond day. That alecsammin is such a good shot, two bullseyes and he's not even on the right side of the target. He is also the world's best golfer.
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Nov 2, 2014 22:00
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Don't mention golf courses !!
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Nov 2, 2014 22:01
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keep punching joe posted:Alex Salmond is a national treasure, we should have an official Alex Salmond day. The OP is highly lacking without the goldmine that is Alex Salmond wearing hats  
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Nov 2, 2014 22:12
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While we're at it: 
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Nov 2, 2014 22:15
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Why did his advisors let him go out looking like Kim Jong Il?
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Nov 2, 2014 22:16
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Pissflaps posted:Why did his advisors let him go out looking like Kim Jong Il? The Kim suit is just too drat comfortable to avoid
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Nov 2, 2014 22:19
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Salmond can do anything. Here he is after making a giant biscuit self aware.  Shamelessly stolen from the Angry Salmond twitter.
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Nov 2, 2014 22:54
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Greetings Scottish posters (and Pissflaps), small aside from the political death of Labour in the north... I have applied for a job in Glasgow, which I run a reasonable shot of getting. This obviously means moving to Glasgow from Reading, probably in the new year. Are there many Glasgow based goons who'd be up for letting a sassenach bastard like me buy them a pint? I'm probably going to end up living around the Queens Park / Shawlands area.
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Nov 3, 2014 15:59
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twoot posted:The OP is highly lacking without the goldmine that is Alex Salmond wearing hats 
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