American Corporate Facism Thread with Chris Hedges

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Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

Long live our corporate stooges. :patriot:

If you are unfamiliar with Hedges, who is one of the only people speaking the truth these days. Here is some background info on him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges

He's also got some sweet youtube videos thrashing elites and the Empire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQky0mTizgY

quote:

Posted on Sep 12, 2010

AP / Elise Amendola
By Chris Hedges

There are no longer any major institutions in American society, including the press, the educational system, the financial sector, labor unions, the arts, religious institutions and our dysfunctional political parties, which can be considered democratic. The intent, design and function of these institutions, controlled by corporate money, are to bolster the hierarchical and anti-democratic power of the corporate state. These institutions, often mouthing liberal values, abet and perpetuate mounting inequality. They operate increasingly in secrecy. They ignore suffering or sacrifice human lives for profit. They control and manipulate all levers of power and mass communication. They have muzzled the voices and concerns of citizens. They use entertainment, celebrity gossip and emotionally laden public-relations lies to seduce us into believing in a Disneyworld fantasy of democracy.

The menace we face does not come from the insane wing of the Republican Party, which may make huge inroads in the coming elections, but the institutions tasked with protecting democratic participation. Do not fear Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin. Do not fear the tea party movement, the birthers, the legions of conspiracy theorists or the militias. Fear the underlying corporate power structure, which no one, from Barack Obama to the right-wing nut cases who pollute the airwaves, can alter. If the hegemony of the corporate state is not soon broken we will descend into a technologically enhanced age of barbarism.

Investing emotional and intellectual energy in electoral politics is a waste of time. Resistance means a radical break with the formal structures of American society. We must cut as many ties with consumer society and corporations as possible. We must build a new political and economic consciousness centered on the tangible issues of sustainable agriculture, self-sufficiency and radical environmental reform. The democratic system, and the liberal institutions that once made piecemeal reform possible, is dead. It exists only in name. It is no longer a viable mechanism for change. And the longer we play our scripted and absurd role in this charade the worse it will get. Do not pity Barack Obama and the Democratic Party. They will get what they deserve. They sold the citizens out for cash and power. They lied. They manipulated and deceived the public, from the bailouts to the abandonment of universal health care, to serve corporate interests. They refused to halt the wanton corporate destruction of the ecosystem on which all life depends. They betrayed the most basic ideals of democracy. And they, as much as the Republicans, are the problem.

�It is like being in a pit,� Ralph Nader told me when we spoke on Saturday. �If you are four feet in the pit you have a chance to grab the top and hoist yourself up. If you are 30 feet in the pit you have to start on a different scale.�

All resistance will take place outside the arena of electoral politics. The more we expand community credit unions, community health clinics and food cooperatives and build alternative energy systems, the more empowered we will become.

�To the extent that these organizations expand and get into communities where they do not exist, we will weaken the multinational goliath, from the banks to the agribusinesses to the HMO giants and hospital chains,� Nader said.
The failure of liberals to defend the interests of working men and women as our manufacturing sector was dismantled, labor unions were destroyed and social services were slashed has proved to be a disastrous and fatal misjudgment. Liberals, who betrayed the working class, have no credibility. This is one of the principal reasons the anti-war movement cannot attract the families whose sons and daughters are fighting and dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. And liberal hypocrisy has opened the door for a virulent right wing. If we are to reconnect with the working class we will have to begin from zero. We will have to rebuild the ties with the poor and the working class which the liberal establishment severed. We will have to condemn the liberal class as vociferously as we condemn the right wing. And we will have to remain true to the moral imperative to foster the common good and the tangible needs of housing, health care, jobs, education and food.

We will, once again, be bombarded in this election cycle with messages of fear from the Democratic Party�designed, in the end, to serve corporate interests. �Better Barack Obama than Sarah Palin,� we will be told. Better the sane technocrats like Larry Summers than half-wits like John Bolton. But this time we must resist. If we express the legitimate rage of the dispossessed working class as our own, if we denounce and refuse to cooperate with the Democratic Party, we can begin to impede the march of the right-wing trolls who seem destined to inherit power. If we again prove compliant we will discredit the socialism we should be offering as an alternative to a perverted Christian and corporate fascism.

The tea party movement is, as Nader points out, �a conviction revolt.� Most of the participants in the tea party rallies are not poor. They are small-business people and professionals. They feel that something is wrong. They see that the two parties are equally responsible for the subsidies and bailouts, the wars and the deficits. They know these parties must be replaced. The corporate state, whose interests are being championed by tea party leaders such as Palin and Dick Armey, is working hard to make sure the anger of the movement is directed toward government rather than corporations and Wall Street. And if these corporate apologists succeed, a more overt form of corporate fascism will emerge without a socialist counterweight.

�Poor people do not organize,� Nader lamented. �They never have. It has always been people who have fairly good jobs. You don�t see Wal-Mart workers massing anywhere. The people who are the most militant are the people who had the best blue-collar jobs. Their expectation level was high. When they felt their jobs were being jeopardized they got really angry. But when you are at $7.25 an hour you want to hang on to $7.25 an hour. It is a strange thing.�

�People have institutionalized oppressive power in the form of surrender,� Nader said. �It is not that they like it. But what are you going to do about it? You make the best of it. The system of control is staggeringly dictatorial. It breaks new ground and innovates in ways no one in human history has ever innovated. You start in American history where these corporations have influence. Then they have lobbyists. Then they run candidates. Then they put their appointments in top government positions. Now, they are actually operating the government. Look at Halliburton and Blackwater. Yesterday someone in our office called the Office of Pipeline Safety apropos the San Bruno explosion in California. The press woman answered. The guy in our office saw on the screen that she had CTR next to her name. He said, �What is CTR?� She said, �I am a contractor.� He said, �This is the press office at the Department of Transportation. They contracted out the press office?� �Yes,� she said, �but that�s OK, I come to work here every day.� �

�The corporate state is the ultimate maturation of American-type fascism,� Nader said. �They leave wide areas of personal freedom so that people can confuse personal freedom with civic freedom�the freedom to go where you want, eat where you want, associate with who you want, buy what you want, work where you want, sleep when you want, play when you want. If people have given up on any civic or political role for themselves there is a sufficient amount of elbow room to get through the day. They do not have the freedom to participate in the decisions about war, foreign policy, domestic health and safety issues, taxes or transportation. That is its genius. But one of its Achilles� heels is that the price of the corporate state is a deteriorating political economy. They can�t stop their greed from getting the next morsel. The question is, at what point are enough people going to have a breaking point in terms of their own economic plight? At what point will they say enough is enough? When that happens, is a tea party type enough or [Sen. Robert M.] La Follette or Eugene Debs type of enough?�

It is anti-corporate movements as exemplified by the Scandinavian energy firm Kraft&Kultur that we must emulate. Kraft&Kultur sells electricity exclusively from solar and water power. It has begun to merge clean energy with cultural events, bookstores and a political consciousness that actively defies corporate hegemony.

The failure by the Obama administration to use the bailout and stimulus money to build public works such as schools, libraries, roads, clinics, highways, public transit and reclaiming dams, as well as create green jobs, has snuffed out any hope of serious economic, political or environmental reform coming from the centralized bureaucracy of the corporate state. And since the government did not hire enough auditors and examiners to monitor how the hundreds of billions in taxpayer funds funneled to Wall Street are being spent, we will soon see reports of widespread mismanagement and corruption. The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for a horrific right-wing backlash in the absence of a committed socialist alternative.

�If you took a day off and did nothing but listen to Hannity, Beck and Limbaugh and realized that this goes on 260 days a year, you would see that it is overwhelming,� Nader said. �You have to almost have a genetic resistance in your mind and body not to be affected by it. These guys are very good. They are clever. They are funny. They are emotional. It beats me how Air America didn�t make it, except it went after [it criticized] corporations, and corporations advertise. These right-wingers go after government, and government doesn�t advertise. And that is the difference. It isn�t that their message appeals more. Air America starved because it could not get ads.�
We do not have much time left. And the longer we refuse to confront corporate power the more impotent we become as society breaks down. The game of electoral politics, which is given legitimacy by the right and the so-called left on the cable news shows, is just that�a game. It diverts us from what should be our daily task�dismantling, piece by piece, the iron grip that corporations hold over our lives. Hope is a word that is applicable only to those who grasp reality, however bleak, and do something meaningful to fight back�which does not include the farce of elections and involvement in mainstream political parties. Hope is about fighting against the real forces of destruction, not chanting �Yes We Can!� in rallies orchestrated by marketing experts, television crews, pollsters and propagandists or begging Obama to be Obama. Hope, in the hands of realists, spreads fear into the black heart of the corporate elite. But hope, real hope, remains thwarted by our collective self-delusion.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/do_not_pity_the_democrats_20100913#14154617296101&action=collapse_widget&id=1968798

TLDR; Corporations control everything, including both parties. Therefore we should not get angry about or invest any energy in the farce of electoral politics. We should instead focus on building economies that exclude powerful, hierarchical corporations.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just don't think investment in alternatives is a realistic solution. Unfortunately, it will take severe crisis. Thoughts?

Dengue_Fever fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Nov 8, 2014

# ? Nov 8, 2014 17:02

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:46

Caros: May 14, 2008

Dengue_Fever posted:

Long live our corporate stooges.

If you are unfamiliar with Hedges, who is one of the only people speaking the truth these days. Here is some background info on him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Hedges

He's also got some sweet youtube videos thrashing elites and the Empire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQky0mTizgY
http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/do_not_pity_the_democrats_20100913#14154617296101&action=collapse_widget&id=1968798

TLDR; Corporations control everything, including both parties. Therefore we should not get angry about or invest any energy in the farce of electoral politics. We should instead focus on building economies that exclude powerful, hierarchical corporations.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just don't think investment in alternatives is a realistic solution. Unfortunately, it will take severe crisis. Thoughts?

My initial thought is that while he may be right, you're going to get a lot of flack for things like the bolded statements. I actually agree with a lot of your points but I get pretty much instant negative thoughts when someone says things like that. The phrasing is the same sort of thing you'd expect when someone is talking about a cult leader. He's the one who tells the truth... maaaaaan.

Likewise the thread title is simply absurd. Corporate Fascism? Yeah, mass corporate control over things sucks rear end, but it isn't Fascism. Fascism is a thing with a real definition, which has nothing to do with what you are talking about. You look just as silly calling it fascism as right wingers do when they scream about SOCIALISM!!!! Oh and you spelled Fascism wrong, which doesn't speak well to your understanding of the subject.

I'll have a more substantive reply once I'm not in the middle of my work day.

Caros fucked around with this message at 20:45 on Nov 8, 2014

# ? Nov 8, 2014 19:11

Ego Death: Sep 15, 2012; by Ralp

whatever i liked the part of end of literacy or whatever book he wrote where the big show drags big bossman's dad's coffin behind his car

this is real and gently caress all those who think otherwise

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:30

Brannock: Feb 9, 2006; by exmarx; Fallen Rib

Basically,

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:37

Literal Hamster: Mar 11, 2012; YOSPOS

Dengue_Fever posted:

TLDR; Corporations control everything, including both parties. Therefore we should not get angry about or invest any energy in the farce of electoral politics. We should instead focus on building economies that exclude powerful, hierarchical corporations.

I agree wholeheartedly. I just don't think investment in alternatives is a realistic solution. Unfortunately, it will take severe crisis. Thoughts?

K.. Kyoon? Have you returned to us at last?

E: For content, the world is a big place, with many different entities controlling various swathes of it. Your post is coming dangerously close to Bilderberg group conspiracy nonsense.

Literal Hamster fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:41

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

I don't think "fascism" is the word you're looking for. It's an awful specific term.

Maybe authoritarianism, if you're really bent on somewhat mischaracterizing the current state of affairs. Or heck, just go with corporatism.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:43

Darkman Fanpage: Jul 4, 2012

Yeah fascism actually has some kind of ideology behind it. Corporations just want to make money, they don't give a poo poo about ideology unless the owners have an ideological view they bring to the company's outlook.

Darkman Fanpage fucked around with this message at 05:50 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:48

Goatse James Bond: Mar 28, 2010; If you see me posting please remind me that I have Charlie Work in the reports forum to do instead

I can see an argument that corporations, in aggregate, have a set of political policies they will tend to pursue, although the waters get kind of muddy when they're incentivized to encourage regulations that fall disproportionately on their competitors.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:50

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

the decision making process of humans-in-a-group aka society has been totally coopted by this idea we had that organizations which generate money are the coolest thing ever and should have unchecked power. this is something all of us more or less bought into so by resisting it you're resisting society. gg nice try just have fun before you go and try to leave a noble corpse

# ? Nov 9, 2014 05:51

Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

GreyjoyBastard posted:

I don't think "fascism" is the word you're looking for. It's an awful specific term.

Maybe authoritarianism, if you're really bent on somewhat mischaracterizing the current state of affairs. Or heck, just go with corporatism.

Actually, 'corporatism' might be a more specific term to what we are talking about here, but American style 'fascism' is still an appropriate name for our country today. Fascism has goals of radical and authoritarian nationalism. American style fascism is not as overt as its European forms. The authoritarian aspects are slightly more secretive. But the nationalist and mass mobilization aspects are quite clear. Nonstop veneration of troops and hushing of criticism of military policy, along with incessant flag waving in the form of rhetoric.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:08

StabbinHobo: Oct 18, 2002; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Darkman Fanpage posted:

Yeah fascism actually has some kind of ideology behind it. Corporations just want to make money, they don't give a poo poo about ideology unless the owners have an ideological view they bring to the company's outlook.

what if i told you you've been in an ideology the whole time

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:13

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

While I would agree that organizing in your community is generally more important, I don't think this "electoral politics are hopelessly corrupt, don't vote" thing is actually going to accomplish a whole lot on a national level, because it isn't like they're going to suddenly go "Oh man, this 3% of people have stopped voting entirely. We should do something about that." The powers that be will instead just write off that group's interests, and some elements here (such as credit unions) do actually occasionally need to touch base with greater society, if only so they aren't (say) outlawed as illegal banks.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:19

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

I feel like it's wrong to discourage people who are inclined to post a sinister photo of Obamary. Like, keep going. Keep looking for the truth.

But Chris Hedges is a plagiarist though, and we're supposed to run away from that because we have college degrees, and if we read a plagiarist our advisor is going to show up on our doorstep 15 years later like "BITCH I BROUGHT YOU IN TO THIS WORL, I KIN TAKE YOU OUT"

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:23

Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

Caros posted:

My initial thought is that while he may be right, you're going to get a lot of flack for things like the bolded statements. I actually agree with a lot of your points but I get pretty much instant negative thoughts when someone says things like that. The phrasing is the same sort of thing you'd expect when someone is talking about a cult leader. He's the one who tells the truth... maaaaaan.

Actually, what I said exactly was 'he is one of the only people', not 'the one', there's a distinction there. Thanks anyway.

Oh and sorry for misspelling the thread title, a little bit of dyslexia kicking in. Didn't read over it when I edited.

I stand by Nader's term 'American style fascism' or my term 'corporate fascism' as a good descriptor for the unifying ideology of the country. The corporations put their logos everywhere, they dominate messaging and propaganda through media and advertising. If you hope to have the privilege to rent yourself out for a living, you better do exactly what they want you to do, you worm, and you better not make any provocative posts on the Internet, either. Through control over money, resources, and messaging, they exert a highly authoritarian hold on American society. And if nationalism (the other part of fascism) serves their needs (as it often does) then so be it.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:26

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Dengue_Fever posted:

I stand by Nader's term 'American style fascism' or my term 'corporate fascism' as a good descriptor for the unifying ideology of the country. The corporations put their logos everywhere, they dominate messaging and propaganda through media and advertising. If you hope to have the privilege to rent yourself out for a living, you better do exactly what they want you to do, you worm, and you better not make any provocative posts on the Internet, either. Through control over money, resources, and messaging, they exert a highly authoritarian hold on American society. And if nationalism (the other part of fascism) serves their needs (as it often does) then so be it.

What's wrong with oligarchy or plutocracy? Do those just lack emotional pop here, is it that fascism is bad so a bad thing must be fascism? I mean, those are pretty much objectively the case, to the point where if I was asked about the American political system I would say "a plutocracy with representative-democratic elements."

e: to be clear, I mean 'what is wrong with using those terms to describe what we have,' which seems to have significant differences from historical fascism - if the Klan were night-riding to suppress opponents of the Republican Party I would be a lot more sympathetic to the use of the term 'fascism.'

Nessus fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:32

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

I might like Chris Hedges more if he was not Chris Hedges. His writing reminds me of Orwell's essay on bad political writing, in that his writing consists of ready-made phrases that are machine copy and pasted. I just plucked out a random sentence:

quote:

The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for a horrific right-wing backlash in the absence of a committed socialist alternative.

Then googled it. From another Hedges article:

quote:

The rot and corruption at the top levels of our financial and political systems, coupled with the increasing deprivation felt by tens of millions of Americans, are volatile tinder for revolt.

Agree with what he's saying or not, but someone who is just copy & pasting is a hack, and it's a sign of a guy who doesn't respect his readers.

He's also espousing two contradictory ideas with the same formulation. In the first, the "rot and corruption" is fueling a right-wing backlash in the absence of a socialist movement, in the second, it's fueling a socialist revolt. Sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:07 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:40

Caros: May 14, 2008

Dengue_Fever posted:

Actually, what I said exactly was 'he is one of the only people', not 'the one', there's a distinction there. Thanks anyway.

Oh and sorry for misspelling the thread title, a little bit of dyslexia kicking in. Didn't read over it when I edited.

I stand by Nader's term 'American style fascism' or my term 'corporate fascism' as a good descriptor for the unifying ideology of the country. The corporations put their logos everywhere, they dominate messaging and propaganda through media and advertising. If you hope to have the privilege to rent yourself out for a living, you better do exactly what they want you to do, you worm, and you better not make any provocative posts on the Internet, either. Through control over money, resources, and messaging, they exert a highly authoritarian hold on American society. And if nationalism (the other part of fascism) serves their needs (as it often does) then so be it.

I didn't mean to imply that your cult didn't have several high ranking people, just that the way you are talking about him sounds culty. Saying "He is one of the only people speaking the truth these days" is an insane sounding statement because it goes towards the conspiracy theory/cult habit of talking about how only your chosen few know the real truth/secret knowledge/whatever.

As for your rewording, you can stand by it all you want, that doesn't make it correct. Making up and/or redefining the meaning of words is another cult-like behavior.

Don't take it too hard, I'm just bitter after the last Eripsa thread. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you've gone about it so poorly that I simply can't trust you. I will never love again. :sigh:

Caros fucked around with this message at 06:48 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:41

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Not to mention rot and corruption aren't very good tinder

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:45

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

Not to mention rot and corruption aren't very good tinder

Hah!

Also SO MANY ADJECTIVES.

quote:

If we again prove compliant we will discredit the socialism we should be offering as an alternative to a perverted Christian and corporate fascism.

Perverted Christian and corporate fascism? As opposed to ... wholesome Christian and corporate fascism?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:48

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

I imagine that means perverted Christianity, as in JEEEEZUS versus the guy in the actual Bible who can easily be read as a radical socialist.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:54

Doorknob Slobber: Sep 10, 2006; by Fluffdaddy

Omi-Polari posted:

Hah!

Also SO MANY ADJECTIVES.

Perverted Christian and corporate fascism? As opposed to ... wholesome Christian and corporate fascism?

Well he is a devout Christian isn't he? So he probably does believe there is a wholesome Christianity.

I tend to agree with a lot of what he has to say, but he's really not a good orator or writer and tends to use the same statements over and over as shown above. A lot of his lectures are pretty much just reading straight from his books.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 06:57

Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

Caros posted:

I didn't mean to imply that your cult didn't have several high ranking people, just that the way you are talking about him sounds culty. Saying "He is one of the only people speaking the truth these days" is an insane sounding statement because it goes towards the conspiracy theory/cult habit of talking about how only your chosen few know the real truth/secret knowledge/whatever.

As for your rewording, you can stand by it all you want, that doesn't make it correct. Making up and/or redefining the meaning of words is another cult-like behavior.

Don't take it too hard, I'm just bitter after the last Eripsa thread. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you've gone about it so poorly that I simply can't trust you. I will never love again.

I hate you you suck, too.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:26

Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:31

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Dengue_Fever posted:

I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.

Much like Jesus, your original text block had many good ideas - none of them novel

# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:34

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Dengue_Fever posted:

I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.

Now that's some top-class staying power, right there. I'll miss the updates from you on all the activism and advocacy you're set to accomplish!

# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:37

Caros: May 14, 2008

Dengue_Fever posted:

I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.

You misspelled fascism in your title for a thread about what you mistakenly believe is fascism because some guy told you it is. Your post consisted of a couple of lines and links involved with you jerking off Chris Hedges, a four year old copy and paste Chris Hedges article from a news site I've never even heard of that involves such important and current political figures as Ralph Nader and then a TL;DR that is essentially "gently caress politics! Lets fix the system!" What did you think would happen?

To be perfectly honest I didn't even read the article because your presentation was such garbage I couldn't be assed to. All I get out of it is that I should Dehumanize myself and face to bloodshed.

For godssake, the word gets a little red squiggly underline in your title. How did you miss that? Are you actually Chris Hedges?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:44

Zeno-25: Dec 5, 2009; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Has anyone here read Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism by Sheldon Wolin of Princeton? It's been a few years since I read the book and it's almost midnight so I'll be brief, but it really is a more coherent work on similar thoughts as what the OP is talking about; basically how the triumph of global neoliberalism and the increasing wealth/income disparity has worked to entrench merely a facade of democracy, where the choices are carefully managed by wealthy corporate interests.

http://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Inc...cy+incorporated

quote:

Democracy is struggling in America--by now this statement is almost clich�. But what if the country is no longer a democracy at all? In Democracy Incorporated, Sheldon Wolin considers the unthinkable: has America unwittingly morphed into a new and strange kind of political hybrid, one where economic and state powers are conjoined and virtually unbridled? Can the nation check its descent into what the author terms "inverted totalitarianism"?

Wolin portrays a country where citizens are politically uninterested and submissive--and where elites are eager to keep them that way. At best the nation has become a "managed democracy" where the public is shepherded, not sovereign. At worst it is a place where corporate power no longer answers to state controls. Wolin makes clear that today's America is in no way morally or politically comparable to totalitarian states like Nazi Germany, yet he warns that unchecked economic power risks verging on total power and has its own unnerving pathologies. Wolin examines the myths and mythmaking that justify today's politics, the quest for an ever-expanding economy, and the perverse attractions of an endless war on terror. He argues passionately that democracy's best hope lies in citizens themselves learning anew to exercise power at the local level.

It's been even longer since I've read Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy but from what I remember Schumpeter's vision of late stage capitalism was particularly prescient. Gonna have to bust out some of the old poli sci books.

Zeno-25 fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 07:45

woke wedding drone: Jun 1, 2003; by exmarx; Fun Shoe

Caros posted:

Are you actually Chris Hedges?

If the OP was Chris Hedges, the title would have been a copy/paste from a correctly spelled original

# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:05

Ivan Shitskin: Nov 29, 2002

Dengue_Fever posted:

I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.

You think this is abuse?? How are you going to take the abuse you get during the revolution?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AB-iLaEisU&t=288s

I can see why people make fun of Hedges. His language is so flowery and dramatic sometimes that it's almost over the top. War Is a Force that Gives Us Meaning was pretty good though. I usually like reading his stuff.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:14

Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

Nessus posted:

What's wrong with oligarchy or plutocracy? Do those just lack emotional pop here, is it that fascism is bad so a bad thing must be fascism? I mean, those are pretty much objectively the case, to the point where if I was asked about the American political system I would say "a plutocracy with representative-democratic elements."

e: to be clear, I mean 'what is wrong with using those terms to describe what we have,' which seems to have significant differences from historical fascism - if the Klan were night-riding to suppress opponents of the Republican Party I would be a lot more sympathetic to the use of the term 'fascism.'

I would agree with you, that oligarchy and plutocracy are fine terms to describe the nature of moneyed interests control over government, but I do think that fascism captures the effectiveness and pervasiveness of corporate messaging in particular. A plutocracy implies leadership by few, but it does not necessarily imply domination of the people by a non-stop propaganda machine and near total control over resources and thereby livelihood, I do believe. One of the distinctions in fascism is processing the people toward nationalism with the goal of continued empire. I would argue that most governments, if not all, possess a working plutocracy. The difference between these countries and the modern US is the extent to which national pride, and what follows as willingness to defer to national power and unity above all else, allow the flourishing of totalitarianism through silent acquiescence.

Dengue_Fever fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:23

Arri: Jun 11, 2005; NpNp

Dengue_Fever posted:

I hate you guys, most of you are more concerned with presentation and style than actual meaty ideas. Or with criticizing anything in a condescending manner. gently caress you guys. This is the last post I'm going to make in DnD.

Members of the prevailing ideology believe that their votes mean something and they're really angry that their 'team' lost, so it's unlikely you're going to get anything but democratic handwringing here.

Also your thread has already, as of page 1, been coopted/redirected from discussing the topic to arguing about semantics with a bunch of people who are uninterested in engaging the topic but instead drowning it in a pile of poo poo specifically with the intention that you just shut up and go away because you didn't agree to their personal understanding of a specific word's definition. There's also the underlying thought of "the system is fine the way it is now, only minor tweaks are needed."

Arri fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:27

Dengue_Fever: Sep 21, 2011

Arri posted:

Members of the prevailing ideology believe that their votes mean something and they're really angry that their 'team' lost, so it's unlikely you're going to get anything but democratic handwringing here.

Also your thread has already, as of page 1, been coopted/redirected from discussing the topic to arguing about semantics with a bunch of people who are uninterested in engaging the topic but instead drowning it in a pile of poo poo specifically with the intention that you just shut up and go away because you didn't agree to their personal understanding of a specific word's definition. There's also the underlying thought of "the system is fine the way it is now, only minor tweaks are needed."

Yes, that's true. Thank you.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 08:36

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Dengue_Fever posted:

I would agree with you, that oligarchy and plutocracy are fine terms to describe the nature of moneyed interests control over government, but I do think that fascism captures the effectiveness and pervasiveness of corporate messaging in particular. A plutocracy implies leadership by few, but it does not necessarily imply domination of the people by a non-stop propaganda machine and near total control over resources and thereby livelihood, I do believe. One of the distinctions in fascism is processing the people toward nationalism with the goal of continued empire. I would argue that most governments, if not all, possess a working plutocracy. The difference between these countries and the modern US is the extent to which national pride, and what follows as willingness to defer to national power and unity above all else, allow the flourishing of totalitarianism through silent acquiescence.

I guess I don't perceive this processing towards nationalism, or I guess more accurately it seems as if the project is entirely complete already. If anything it seems like the sense of nationhood is declining because the government is obviously non-functional and non-representative. There is certainly a weird vein of troop worship and it is rather encouraged, but I would say for the average American this is not the same kind of thing as it was for, apparently, the average German or even the average Soviet.

I think one other distinction that indicates we are more of a plutocracy than a fascist state is the recent success of several "culture issue" cases. Given the general conservative ideology of fascist states as I understand them, it would seem peculiar that there is widespread decriminalization of marijuana use as well as the seemingly-inevitable legalization of gay marriage nationwide. However, these are not matters that meaningfully challenge economic power, the way that they would challenge (say) religious or cultural power. You could probably make a cogent argument that the wealthy do not really care about these matters, so social progress and organization is not really hindered, except in so far as it could be used to advance other interests; beating the gay marriage drum in 2004 to turn out voters to keep the Iraq money train rolling, but in 2014, not really giving a poo poo.

Arri posted:

Members of the prevailing ideology believe that their votes mean something and they're really angry that their 'team' lost, so it's unlikely you're going to get anything but democratic handwringing here.

Also your thread has already, as of page 1, been coopted/redirected from discussing the topic to arguing about semantics with a bunch of people who are uninterested in engaging the topic but instead drowning it in a pile of poo poo specifically with the intention that you just shut up and go away because you didn't agree to their personal understanding of a specific word's definition. There's also the underlying thought of "the system is fine the way it is now, only minor tweaks are needed."

What, Comrade, would proper "discussion of the topic" constitute? Would it be permitted to question premises or would only asking, "Gee, how can we get started in completing this project?" be permissible forms of discussion?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 09:27

Sergg: Sep 19, 2005; I was rejected by the:

When will corporate prejudice against people with faces end?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 09:36

Xandu: Feb 19, 2006; It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am.

Isn't Hedges a plagarist?

# ? Nov 9, 2014 09:36

Pesmerga: Aug 1, 2005; So nice to eat you

Xandu posted:

Isn't Hedges a plagarist?

Yes. JUST LIKE YOU'RE PLAGIARISING SEDANCHAIR'S EARLIER POST.

OP, there are lots of great books, and writers, on the topic of the increased corporate control over democratic organisations and indeed the entire institutional framework. Hedges isn't one of them. Carroll's 'The Making of a Transnational Capitalist Class: Corporate Power in the 21st Century' published by Zed Books in 2010 goes into a lot of this, focusing on the influence of 'neoliberal' ideas on changing political and legal approaches to issues such as capital controls, and the role of the company within society. He also does it in a much more academic, thoughtful and intellectually robust way than Hedges does.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 11:43

The New Black: Oct 1, 2006; Had it, lost it.

Zeno-25 posted:

Has anyone here read Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism by Sheldon Wolin of Princeton? It's been a few years since I read the book and it's almost midnight so I'll be brief, but it really is a more coherent work on similar thoughts as what the OP is talking about; basically how the triumph of global neoliberalism and the increasing wealth/income disparity has worked to entrench merely a facade of democracy, where the choices are carefully managed by wealthy corporate interests.

I've read it, and thought it was excellent. His analysis of the way in which we can arrive, by completely different means, at a place that isn't so different in some ways from traditional totalitarian regimes was interesting, as were the distinctions he drew in terms of the forms their control can take.

In fact, Hedges these days tends to reference Wolin's conception of inverted totalitarianism far more often than some idea of corporate fascism.

I don't mind Hedges, he's become a bit of a polemicist, and tends to harp on the same stuff and insist too much on strict pacifism (though given his experiences as a war reporter this is perhaps understandable). Frankly I appreciate his criticism of liberals far more than his criticism of the right. I recently re-read War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning, certainly his best work, and it still seems very relevant, especially with what's going on in Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 13:31

ReindeerF: Apr 20, 2002; Rubber Dinghy Rapids Bro

Kenzie posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AB-iLaEisU&t=288s

Oh, I used to be in revolution.

:fakes a drink:

It's a tough racket.

# ? Nov 9, 2014 13:42

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

Dengue_Fever posted:

I would agree with you, that oligarchy and plutocracy are fine terms to describe the nature of moneyed interests control over government, but I do think that fascism captures the effectiveness and pervasiveness of corporate messaging in particular. A plutocracy implies leadership by few, but it does not necessarily imply domination of the people by a non-stop propaganda machine and near total control over resources and thereby livelihood, I do believe. One of the distinctions in fascism is processing the people toward nationalism with the goal of continued empire. I would argue that most governments, if not all, possess a working plutocracy. The difference between these countries and the modern US is the extent to which national pride, and what follows as willingness to defer to national power and unity above all else, allow the flourishing of totalitarianism through silent acquiescence.

I think the issue is simply about refining definitions, I think "Free Market Authoritarianism" is probably a better descriptor simply because Fascism in itself is such a unique form of ideology that is more than simply racist, militaristic and totalitarian state.

If anything I think there is a clear divide between Putin's authoritarianism, which is obviously militaristic and socially reactionary versus what is happening in the US. If anything certain types of social progress does happen the US (most of the country has gay marriage now, 4 states and DC have legalized cannabis) but this progress only happens in a very limited framework, basically anything that doesn't cost those with wealth any money. Economically, the country continues to regress even though very specific social causes advance.

Most middle-class liberals are silently fairly content with this, and if anything it is still happening in a liberal framework but with a growing undemocratic/authoritarian edge to it. A lot of people sat out of the 2014 election, turnout was 36.5%, not a sign of a healthy sense of democracy. (Btw, 2010 which was far from a robust turnout was 40%.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Nov 9, 2014

# ? Nov 9, 2014 14:27

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# ? Apr 29, 2024 17:46

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

quote:

�Poor people do not organize,� Nader lamented. �They never have. It has always been people who have fairly good jobs. You don�t see Wal-Mart workers massing anywhere. The people who are the most militant are the people who had the best blue-collar jobs. Their expectation level was high. When they felt their jobs were being jeopardized they got really angry. But when you are at $7.25 an hour you want to hang on to $7.25 an hour. It is a strange thing.�

Hmmm, yes, why are people more willing and able to organize when they have enough savings to ride out a period without work and also have marketable skills that make them difficult to replace rather than being disposable minimum wage labour gosh this is a true headscratcher I am mystified

# ? Nov 9, 2014 15:20

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > American Corporate Facism Thread with Chris Hedges

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