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I was just acting. If you'd like my reaction I'll have it typed up and on your desk by tomorrow morning.
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Dec 16, 2014 18:32
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this is cool, i hope the space broccoli poster publishes a cool book about this every non-fiction book needs a 1-3 word witty title, folloewd by a colon and a longer title "Blood Orange: The Unwritten Rule of Terror in 17th Century New York"
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Dec 16, 2014 18:36
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the 17th century dutch hate him: local man discovers details of hosed up dutch guy that THEY never wanted you to see!
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Dec 16, 2014 18:37
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alnilam posted:the 17th century dutch hate him: local man discovers details of hosed up dutch guy that THEY never wanted you to see!
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Dec 16, 2014 18:40
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hey if hitler isn't too hosed up for the history books why should this guy be |
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Dec 16, 2014 18:49
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dogcrash truther posted:This is cool as hell |
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Dec 16, 2014 19:33
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twoday posted:Yeah it's pretty hosed up, I found all this Colve poo poo and I was thrilled because I stumbled upon something that hasn't been written about, which is your dream as a historian, but then I started reading these hosed up fragments and realizing that people tried to bury this history so that nobody would ever know it, and it got really dark really fast. Imagine things getting so crazy that afterwards everyone comes together and decides that they have to do everything in their power to erase this part of history. There's nothing about Colve or New Orange in any history books, but all the documents I read were written by desperate people in a time of war and extreme conditions, and they tried to bury it all so we wouldn't have to deal with it, but now I'm exhuming it, feels heavy congrats man. that really is the dream. |
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Dec 16, 2014 19:34
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I took a class on medieval Christian thought in college and the professor said something like 85% of medieval texts have never been examined by contemporary historians. Maybe we can't say that Charlemagne was robotripping for sure, but with so much unexamined evidence - I don't think we can say it's definitely not true... |
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Dec 16, 2014 19:37
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GEExCEE posted:I took a class on medieval Christian thought in college and the professor said something like 85% of medieval texts have never been examined by contemporary historians. Maybe we can't say that Charlemagne was robotripping for sure, but with so much unexamined evidence - I don't think we can say it's definitely not true... it's nice to see you posting again 
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Dec 16, 2014 19:39
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wth posted:it's nice to see you posting again |
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Dec 16, 2014 19:47
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Dec 16, 2014 19:48
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Yeah, it seems the knowledge of New Orange has been circulating since 2011 or so but mostly it's just commentary on the dutch retaking the city and renaming it. There seems to be nothing at all on Colve before or after. This book says he was an infantry commander and another thing I read said he was an admiral. If you find anything out about him, please do share it here after you use it to make a penny. I'm very interested! |
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Dec 16, 2014 21:37
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alnilam posted:the 17th century dutch hate him: local man discovers details of hosed up dutch guy that THEY never wanted you to see!
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Dec 16, 2014 22:45
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anime gently caress pillow posted:Yeah, it seems the knowledge of New Orange has been circulating since 2011 or so but mostly it's just commentary on the dutch retaking the city and renaming it. There seems to be nothing at all on Colve before or after. This book says he was an infantry commander and another thing I read said he was an admiral. If you find anything out about him, please do share it here after you use it to make a penny. I'm very interested! That book cites New York Colonial Documents as a source for some written statements issued by Colve's government. I'm still looking but I can't find any more information about these documents in a bibliography or anything, and the book is more than a hundred years old so talking to the author is out. I wonder if it's the same archive twoday is digging through. |
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Dec 16, 2014 23:16
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Yes, yes, it's not very nice to knock down peoples houses and cut them in half and whatnot but this 2% tax on duffles will not stand |
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Dec 16, 2014 23:32
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bump |
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Dec 17, 2014 16:52
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alnilam posted:this is cool, i hope the space broccoli poster publishes a cool book about this |
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Dec 18, 2014 11:16
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GEExCEE posted:That book cites New York Colonial Documents as a source for some written statements issued by Colve's government. I'm still looking but I can't find any more information about these documents in a bibliography or anything, and the book is more than a hundred years old so talking to the author is out. I wonder if it's the same archive twoday is digging through. I'd think that it is but it's probably text that wasn't yet read. What I'd really, sincerely like to do is fly out to Brussels or wherever the archives for the Netherlands military are kept and sift through them with a translator to find out more about Colve. |
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Dec 19, 2014 08:45
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It looks like the Dutch Navy has pre-19th century materials in archives scattered across a few major cities, as well as in their national archive. Most of the stuff I'm looking for in the army redirect to the national archive, and it says their records for stuff before 1850 are spotty, but it's worth a shot. I tried looking up Colve in the NA's online person look-up (including a few things I thought could be alternate spellings that seem to be in use more in later times). I can't find anything for Kolff or Kolve but I did find one entry for an Anthonij Colve as a captain in the service of Colonel Caspar du Mauregnault (a distant ancestor of a prominent Dutch Nazi) in 1677, and then another listing Anthony Colve as a Sergeant Major in Mauregnault's command in 1679. The records are in the Zeeland archives. The Dutch genealogical society also returned a few hits for Colve in my cursory search - it seems like the name Colve at least appears in Mathias Balen's 1677 Beschryvinge der stad Dordrecht, a literary description of the city of Dordt and its inhabitants. If it's not Colve himself, maybe some of his family members lived there? |
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Dec 19, 2014 14:24
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i love History Mysteries. |
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Dec 19, 2014 14:30
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do we have the history tag yet? |
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Dec 19, 2014 15:20
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GEExCEE posted:It looks like the Dutch Navy has pre-19th century materials in archives scattered across a few major cities, as well as in their national archive. Most of the stuff I'm looking for in the army redirect to the national archive, and it says their records for stuff before 1850 are spotty, but it's worth a shot. I tried looking up Colve in the NA's online person look-up (including a few things I thought could be alternate spellings that seem to be in use more in later times). I can't find anything for Kolff or Kolve but I did find one entry for an Anthonij Colve as a captain in the service of Colonel Caspar du Mauregnault (a distant ancestor of a prominent Dutch Nazi) in 1677, and then another listing Anthony Colve as a Sergeant Major in Mauregnault's command in 1679. The records are in the Zeeland archives. The Dutch genealogical society also returned a few hits for Colve in my cursory search - it seems like the name Colve at least appears in Mathias Balen's 1677 Beschryvinge der stad Dordrecht, a literary description of the city of Dordt and its inhabitants. If it's not Colve himself, maybe some of his family members lived there? I bet it is him. So it's safe to say he didn't die, but I find it strange that he was allowed to continue his service after the botching of New Orange. It's also odd that someone who had as much money and influence as he did (from what I've read so far, anyway) would go about soldiering again. Perhaps he didn't do anything memorable at all for the rest of his life or before that, but I'm very surprised nobody from the colonies pursued someone who did the things recorded in a legal or even extralegal manner. |
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Dec 19, 2014 15:51
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I wonder where Mauregnault's army went and what they did - did Colve go back to Europe? Was he in the Netherlands? Did he fight in the Franco-Dutch wars? Or did he continue to serve overseas? I looked more at all the Coves in the Dutch online archives and found some stuff. The earliest Colve they have is Johannes Colve - the document looks like it's a birth certificate dated 1367, I'm pretty sure it's in this book but google won't let me search it. It looks like a genealogical history of a certain town, area, or family, but I can't be sure. It's in the Overijssel archive. Cornelius Cove "and his child" were buried in 1584, and the record is from a town called Goes. Most of the rest of the records mentioning Colves come from Goes, and with a few from Flushing, but they all seem to be living within the province of Zeeland. It doesn't say that Anthonij Colve's record is from there, but it is in the Zeeland Archives, where the rest of the documents from Goes seem to be. In 1586, a Marrow Rite Colve had a baby, John, with a man called "Hubrecht the Manegeler" in Dordrecht, the same town Balin wrote about - I can't find any more records of Colves in Dordrecht, but apparently Balin was writing about them years later, which makes me suspect that these records are really incomplete (surprise). The next thing I can find is the death of Jacobmijncken Colve in 1600, who left behind her husband Cornelijs - more on him later. Then, in October of 1605, a "Capiteyn Colve" was a witness to the baptism of Adolf of Heulle at Arnemuiden - maybe Anthonij came from a military family? In 1606, a document lists Nicholaes Colve as captain of a company, and in 1638 a Jacob Colve - Nicholaes' former lieutenant, is registered as the captain of his own "company consisting of 150 footmen." I think Nicholaes may have been Jacob's father or uncle, and Anthonij might be Jacob's son. In 1617, Theunis Theunissen Colve gets married in Flushing, and in 1623 a Harreman Colve is buried by his son Dijerick in Goes. This is life in Zeeland - people live, get married, die, bear witness to baptisms, survey land. Standard stuff, really. In 1626, a Jan Janssen Colve gets married to the lovely Ms. Tanneken Conijnix - lol @ Dutch names - in Flushing. Jan Janssen's occupation is listed as sailor, so there may have been some branches of the Colve family involved in the naval service and this may be where confusion about whether our man Colve was in the army or navy. Then, in 1627 and 1628 Cornelijs buries two children, and "Dirrick Colve" buries one of his in 1628. No names are listed for any of the children, and there are no records of Cornelijs or Dijerick getting married. Either they married again and it wasn't recorded, or they had children out of wedlock. Either way, it looks like the children either died before they were named or we only have partial records or something. My other thought is that there may have been an outbreak of plague and that the children were older, but their names weren't recorded because people were in such a rush to get everyone buried. Amsterdam was hit by the plague in 1623, killing more than fifteen thousand people, a sixth of the city's population. Other parts of Europe - at least England and northern Italy - suffered plague outbreaks in '27-'28, and Goes may have been particularly hard hit. I don't know how plague deaths were recorded in Amsterdam, and it seems to me like the children were probably not mature or else their names would have been written down. Still, it's a possibility. Even if there wasn't a plague that killed so many people they didn't bother writing down the names of the dead, Goes was a town that was captured by the Dutch from the Spanish in the late 16th century. An outbreak of plague - or two - less than 50 years after their town was turned into a warzone may have given intrepid young people a motivation to get out of the boonies and see the world. Zeeland, I believe, is more of the Netherland's breadbasket rather than a major center of commerce. Colve was almost certainly born later than this, but if any of this base speculation turns out to be true it sort of gives some kind of insight to what kind of circumstances may have influenced his childhood. There are way more Colves between here and the beginning of the 17th century, around the time I'm guessing Anthonij would have died. I stil have a lot of the stuff from the 1630s on to dig through, which is when I think Anthonij was probably born. I'll keep looking and see if I find anything interesting. GEExCEE fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:36
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feel like I need a post work out shake after that effortpost |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:46
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The Goons of Joke Colve |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:47
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looks like twoday, the space broccoli poster, just found a co-author for Blood Orange: The Unwritten Rule of Terror in 17th Century New York
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Dec 19, 2014 17:49
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I cough on my pipe smoke and knock my horn rimmed glasses off the bridge of my nose as my hearty chortle stretches my tweed jacket over the girth of my belly |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:49
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dogcrash truther posted:The Goons of Joke Colve
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Dec 19, 2014 17:50
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someone hire me as a research assistant... please... |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:52
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The records of this poo poo looks like Elvish. Here's a document from 1638 that apparently lists the name of Betken Colve as an orphan in Middelburg. |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:57
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GEExCEE posted:The records of this poo poo looks like Elvish. Here's a document from 1638 that apparently lists the name of Betken Colve as an orphan in Middelburg. the way it magnifies the page is dope |
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Dec 19, 2014 18:47
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GEExCEE posted:The records of this poo poo looks like Elvish. Here's a document from 1638 that apparently lists the name of Betken Colve as an orphan in Middelburg. This initially boggles my mind when I consider the dutch speak a germanic tongue, but then I think back to all of the colonial texts of the 13 colonies and the spelling errors and shenanigans they're riddled with and am suddenly glad about my local elementary school. |
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Dec 19, 2014 18:57
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alnilam posted:this is cool, i hope the space broccoli poster publishes a cool book about this Yeah, so I'm writing a book now and this title rules alnilam posted:the 17th century dutch hate him: local man discovers details of hosed up dutch guy that THEY never wanted you to see! Actually it was the English who don't want you to know about this GEExCEE posted:That book cites New York Colonial Documents as a source for some written statements issued by Colve's government. I'm still looking but I can't find any more information about these documents in a bibliography or anything, and the book is more than a hundred years old so talking to the author is out. I wonder if it's the same archive twoday is digging through. Here's a book from before the civil war that has some colve stuff (pages 571 to 756) that was recently scanned and uploaded by a guy I know in the archives. Few copies have survived and it was never reprinted. One is in the state archives and you need special permission to touch it. Another was in the office of Charles Gehring, the guy who translated all the Ne Netherland papers, and he told me he fished it out of a dumpster behind the archives. But it's online now so that's easy. A lot of the documents from Colve's reign are here, but I saw a lot more interesting stuff in the archives. Some was transcribed but not published and kept in a folder held by people of power, about the police harassing citizens and such. GEExCEE posted:It looks like the Dutch Navy has pre-19th century materials in archives scattered across a few major cities, as well as in their national archive. Most of the stuff I'm looking for in the army redirect to the national archive, and it says their records for stuff before 1850 are spotty, but it's worth a shot. I tried looking up Colve in the NA's online person look-up (including a few things I thought could be alternate spellings that seem to be in use more in later times). I can't find anything for Kolff or Kolve but I did find one entry for an Anthonij Colve as a captain in the service of Colonel Caspar du Mauregnault (a distant ancestor of a prominent Dutch Nazi) in 1677, and then another listing Anthony Colve as a Sergeant Major in Mauregnault's command in 1679. The records are in the Zeeland archives. The Dutch genealogical society also returned a few hits for Colve in my cursory search - it seems like the name Colve at least appears in Mathias Balen's 1677 Beschryvinge der stad Dordrecht, a literary description of the city of Dordt and its inhabitants. If it's not Colve himself, maybe some of his family members lived there? Can you send me that entry? This is great stuff, never seen anything about Colve before or after New Orange. I just skipped this entire book and it is a massive list of names from before 1675 (when Colve just came back to Holland) and it didn't have him, just a priest named Andreas Colvius who lived in the same time and apparently exchanged letters with Decartes. Anyway, Colvius might be a dutch spelling of Colve to look at. anime gently caress pillow posted:I bet it is him. So it's safe to say he didn't die, but I find it strange that he was allowed to continue his service after the botching of New Orange. It's also odd that someone who had as much money and influence as he did (from what I've read so far, anyway) would go about soldiering again. Perhaps he didn't do anything memorable at all for the rest of his life or before that, but I'm very surprised nobody from the colonies pursued someone who did the things recorded in a legal or even extralegal manner. Well so nobody in the Netherlands wanted them to conquer New York, and the Dutch government was pissed and embarrassed that New Orange ever happened so nobody from that incident was praised or supported afterwards, and Colve was a military man, what else would he do. makes sense. GEExCEE posted:I wonder where Mauregnault's army went and what they did - did Colve go back to Europe? Was he in the Netherlands? Did he fight in the Franco-Dutch wars? Or did he continue to serve overseas? Wow. Some sources even claim Colve was English and worked for the Dutch, but all this Colve geneology in Zeeland kind of proves he was Dutch. Gaspar de Mauregnault was known to have fought the English in a battle in 1674, and seems to have been wounded in this battle in 1677. But you said Colve was listed as under his command in 1679, but I have no idea of Mauregnault was still serving or even alive then. alnilam posted:looks like twoday, the space broccoli poster, just found a co-author for Blood Orange: The Unwritten Rule of Terror in 17th Century New York yeah maybe actually, not what I expected to find in BYOB as I said, in great shock that after posting in half a dozen somethingawful subforums that this one yielded the most valuable information GEExCEE posted:someone hire me as a research assistant... please... PM me. I'm not rich but I am working on publishing a book about this together with a coauthor and you should get in on this thing on the ground floor, seems to have a lot of appeal and potential for profit as a good story twoday fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Dec 20, 2014 DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT PROVIDE MEDICAL ADVICE |
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Dec 20, 2014 02:20
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blah blah, here's a post I made in the Dutch thread with the only image of New Orange that survived, from a map GEExCEE posted:The records of this poo poo looks like Elvish. yeah, old dutch handwriting is pretty wacky, I've had to take a lot of classes to be able to read it and still it takes an hour to decipher a page. Most of the stuff in the New York archive looks like this:  (there was a fire at some point) Funny story: The State Archives in Albany have a public library and the bathroom is often used by bums to wash themselves. One day I went in to take a piss and there was a Mohawk indian there with facial tattoos and piercings and a giant backback with tools and weird decorations hanging off of it that alongside his ragged clothes suggested to me that he was living like a nomad under bridges and whathaveyou (it was about 0 degrees F outside), scary dude. He looked just like a drawing of New York natives that I had seen earlier in the day, but with more modern clothes. Made me realize that these people weren't really wiped out like they say, they're still loving there and apparently roaming the countryside and the cities as hunter gatherers. Blew my mind. thank you for all your help and insight, thread. Please accept this nugget of wisdom as a thank you gift: 
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Dec 20, 2014 02:39
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Once Colve sent out one of his goons to do some dirty work and the victim tried to start a court case, which went like this:quote:Plaintiff alleges that the Defendant hath committed in the Town of Flushing divers evil deeds and the defendant thus remained free and was allowed to continue terrorizing people despite being declared legally insane more random violence: quote:Pltff. alleges that the Deft, hath at three different times, contrary to the Proclamation, drunken stabbing: quote:Whereas Peter Poulsen, aged about 43 years, born at Wolster, hath dared on the 2G"' of Don't know what being encircled with rods means but being tied to a stake is kind of like being crucified with your arms down. Maybe this? Or maybe the stabbed him from all angles with pointy sticks? This is kind of like the Ferguson shooting except they solved it by handing over a few coats: quote:Metapis, Sachem of Crossweeckes, with Memarckitan and Equanecon, who represent twoday fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Dec 20, 2014 DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT PROVIDE MEDICAL ADVICE |
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Dec 20, 2014 03:04
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I posted too much, tl;dr
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Dec 20, 2014 03:22
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dogcrash truther posted:The Goons of Joke Colve
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Dec 20, 2014 03:23
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dogcrash truther posted:The Goons of Joke Colve |
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Dec 20, 2014 03:28
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This is really cool stuff, my work deals with a lot of old records and it's really cool piecing together these narratives from the remaining bits of history we've managed to not destroy yet. |
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Dec 20, 2014 03:35
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| # ? May 9, 2024 03:01 |
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Dont bully me! posted:This is really cool stuff, my work deals with a lot of old records and it's really cool piecing together these narratives from the remaining bits of history we've managed to not destroy yet. well tell us some cool stories that explain why you think history is disgusting, otherwise this is now just the Colve thread what do you do? DISCLAIMER: THIS POST DOES NOT PROVIDE MEDICAL ADVICE |
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Dec 20, 2014 04:04
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