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A boat is a hole in the water you throw money into. That said, someday I hope to own a ~40-45' cruising catamaran for long-range (eventual circumnavigation) sailing. I'm skippering a Voyage 440P out of Soper's Hole, Tortola, BVI this coming May, with a bunch of friends crewing, and planning another bareboat charter trip for early (January-March) 2016 as well, possibly in Belize. If you know what you're getting into and don't just plan on having the boat sitting around while you sink money into it, it isn't a terrible idea. If you're not rich and you won't be using your boat quite often it's really a better idea to find rental or boat timeshare type things to use instead.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:05
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revmoo posted:How bad is it really though? If I do all the work myself, winterize it properly and store it in a garage all winter, what kind of excruciating costs am I looking at? Assuming I get a somewhat solid boat to begin with. I'm honestly not familiar with smaller boats, and I've only learned maintenance for cruising-size sailboats (thus have very little experience doing any on marine gasoline engines), so I can't be as helpful here as others who I'm sure will speak up about their costs.
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Nov 19, 2014 20:55
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Rime posted:Sweet, I searched all the forums and was surprised there was no thread for marine hijinks anywhere. I've completed those, 104 (Bareboat Charter), and 114 (Cruising Multihull). I'm going to get 105 (Advanced Costal Navigation) done soon (aka when I get around to signing up for the course, it's a study-and-exam course so it's a good one to do over the winter)
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Nov 20, 2014 00:36
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Rime posted:Canada, (CYA) Basic Crew / Basic Cruising standard. Hoping to get VHF / Nav done in the spring when my schedule is open again. Ok yeah, sounds like the equivalent of ASA 101/103 then. Our VHF / Nav stuff is also contained in the 103 and 104 courses.
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Nov 20, 2014 00:39
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Alctel posted:holy poo poo, they have a lot more room than a sailboat of the same size. Have you sailed your boat very far (between cities? further?) or do you stay in your area?
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Nov 20, 2014 03:02
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Minus Pants posted:What's the best way to learn to sail if you don't know anyone already into it? I've taken a 1 hour crash-course and read some books, but I'm not sure where to go from here. ASA 101/103? Private lessons? Any suggestions for where to take them? I'm in Chicago, but it would be nice to get something in this winter (obviously somewhere warmer). Yep, ASA 101 will teach you to sail, and is a lot of good information to learn even if you've already done some sailing. 103 expands greatly on that, teaching you how to handle light coastal sailing and how to deal with heavier wind conditions. If you're able to go somewhere warmer, there should be schools operating year-round down in South Florida.
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Nov 20, 2014 05:21
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Yeah, that's one of the big periodic expenses for ocean-going vessels. There are paints that are very effective anti-barnacle and other damage that apparently can be effective, but also quite expensive. I'm a really big fan of cruising catamarans as I said. Here are a few of the type I want to be able to buy "someday": MaineCat 41: http://www.mecat.com/boats/maine-cat-41 Beautiful design that is well-suited to long-range, cross-ocean sailing. I really like the inclusion of a cockpit bunk:  Being a small company they only seem to make one model at a time, and have switched all their manufacturing over to the slightly more compact Maine Cat 38. I did just get an email about a 2012 model Maine Cat 41 going up for sale for $440,000 though: http://www.mecat.com/maine-catamaran-brokerage/12 Too bad it'll be a while until I can afford that sort of thing. At the higher end of the market is the beautiful Catana 42. French sailboats are beautiful and really loving expensive.  I'm not entirely sure of the pricing but I think they start (without options) around €400,000 or so. The Catana 48 can easily get up to €800k if I recall correctly. Someday. 
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Nov 20, 2014 20:06
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Ola posted:This is probably one those ridiculous debates like motor oil or whatever, but I've heard that catamarans on the big ocean was a no-no since they won't right themselves if they capsize. How does it rate between 1 and 10 on the bovine scatometer? The problem with older catamaran designs is they didn't have several things that modern catamarans do such as a forward trampoline (instead having solid decking) or a "dolphin striker" underneath between the two hulls (EDIT: The ASA multihull book agrees with me here even though wikipedia doesn't about what the dolphin striker is). So what would happen is that air and waves would result in a lot of upward pressure on the bow of the boat and could flip it in bad weather. Modern catamarans don't have this problem due to updated designs. Sure, if you flip your catamaran, you're not going to get it righted. But any modern catamaran is extremely difficult to flip, even in large waves and heavy winds. The other important difference between sailing a catamaran and a monohull is that on a monohull you have a large gradient between "strong wind" and "scary strong wind" where you can decide when and how much to reef your sails. You can't do that with a catamaran--you really don't even want to heel more than about 5 degrees to the side, so instead it's important to know the manufacturer-stated reefing points (in terms of speed of the wind) and to follow those carefully. tl;dr: older designs of cruising catamarans (and I suppose trailerable ones too) were prone to flipping in heavy weather but newer designs are not, and that's where the reputation for them being dangerous to use cross-ocean comes from Kenshin fucked around with this message at 06:10 on Nov 21, 2014 |
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Nov 20, 2014 20:20
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Ola posted:Right, so it's more of (or just as much) a wind catch thing than a rolling upright thing. Still, if you go under with your monohull mid-Atlantic and roll upright again, I bet it's still not a great day out.  I'd asked these same questions of my instructor (the amazingly experienced owner of Puget Sound Sailing Institute, Mike Rice, who did his first ocean crossing in the 60s(?) at age 16) and he basically said that it was a non-issue these days. Here's quick rundown off the top of my head of advantages/disadvantages of multi-hull vs. monohull: Catamarans: + More stable. The boat doesn't heel side to side, thus living quarters and the galley don't have to be secured as heavily against items rolling around as on a monohull. More comfortable for long term sailing and living due to this. + Shallow draft. There are a lot of places in the world that a catamaran can get to that a monohull cannot. This is particularly applicable to areas with shallow reefs (especially in the Caribbean, Pacific, and Indian oceans). + Lots of living space. A 40' catamaran is going to have ~2.5x the livable space of a 40' monohull. + Redundant engines. The vast majority of modern cruising catamarans have at least two diesel engines and many have a third devoted to power generation (a genset). You can motor just fine on one engine (though you have to adjust your rudder a bit to compensate). The other advantage of two engines is maneuverability in tight spots: if you're careful you can spin your catamaran around in place. + Higher speed in a given wind. Catamarans tend to be around 15% faster than a monohull with similar sails. + Lots of surface area for solar panels - More tacking is required going upwind. Most catamarans have are close-hauled at about 45 degrees to the wind, though daggerboards can help push that further in toward--and sometimes below--40 degrees. (daggerboards have other benefits as well) - More strict reefing requirements. As discussed above you really don't want your catamaran heeling much at all, so you need to be very aware of the wind speed and reef your sails accordingly. - Less available moorage. Most docks are designed for monohulls and catamarans are often too wide to fit. (there are "extra skinny" catamarans designed to get around this problem but they come with stability disadvantages and should be avoided) Monohulls: + A heavy keel means your sailboat will always try to right itself + ~30 degree close-hauled angle - Less comfortable at anchor (unless you don't mind lots of rolling)
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Nov 20, 2014 20:48
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That's a beautiful cabin cruiser. I'm guessing you use it for multi-day trips during the summer? How many does it sleep, and does it have a galley & refrigerator and all?
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Nov 24, 2014 18:38
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BrokenKnucklez posted:Just curious to the people who spend time on the ocean. What is the "ideal" sized sail boat for living and being on the ocean? One of my end goals is to buy a sail boat after I retire and just spend the rest of my life putting around the Caribbean. My plan is similar but I'm planning to circumnavigate as well and often have multiple guests on board for several weeks at a time, so I'll be going for a 38-50' catamaran. Kenshin fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 17:36
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EAB posted:Oh yeah... I don't really have any sailing experience. Do you just read books or do you need to go to a school? Do you need to be certified for certain boat sizes and types and what not? If you ever want to rent/charter sailboats though they'll require some certifications. Your basic day-sailing certs are ASA 101 and 103. 104 is for multi-day chartering trips (where you are captain of the boat), and 114 is lots of specific stuff on catamarans. I'd highly recommend at least doing those four. They are all on-the-water classes that also have written exams and books to study. Even if you just want your own boat it's probably a good idea to do classes. That said there is the (relatively) famous experience of the couple who circumnavigated on "Bumfuzzle", a ~40ft catamaran, back in the mid 2000s, who took the first day of their ASA 101 class, decided they didn't like taking classes, and then just went sailing. They made it, though as I read through their blog even near the end of their trip around the world 2-handing their boat they were still doing things that made me facepalm because I'd learned those things in my classes and they didn't do them while sailing around the world. Kenshin fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 19:51
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EAB posted:Man, some of these courses for the ASA 101/103/104 look like awesome vacations in themselves. They are. I got my ASA 104 and 114 at the same time this past May doing a week-long sailing trip in the Sea of Cortez, out of La Paz, Mexico, ending up near Loretto, Mexico. It was one of the best trips of my life. A few of the people on the trip were getting their 103 and 104. It was just 5 students (myself, two couples in their 40s) our instructor (the owner of Puget Sound Sailing Institute, Mike Rice who is also on the Board of Standards for the ASA), and the amazing elderly couple who owned the catamaran, a beautiful 44 footer. EDIT: here's a shot from the trip when I climbed up a ridge on an uninhabited desert island:  We'd anchored in the bay to the right (out of frame, across the salt flat) and all these other boats had anchored in this bay. We made the correct choice because the wind was howling all night and we were in the bay protected from the wind and waves, all these boats you see in the picture got tossed around pretty bad. Kenshin fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Nov 25, 2014 |
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Nov 25, 2014 21:54
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Yeah, a large chunk of catamaran designs have the cockpit open or with a limited bimini. I strongly prefer the designs with full covered cockpits with 360 (or near) visibility.
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Nov 25, 2014 23:52
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BrokenKnucklez posted:But fresh water capacity and storage would be my bigger concern. Also, modern water-makers are pretty great. We had one on the catamaran in Mexico and even with 8 people on the boat we only topped the tanks off at a dock once the entire trip and we hadn't been frugal at all.
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Nov 25, 2014 23:54
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Rime posted:Lawd are they ever expensive though, over $5k (more for tropical) for a Katadyn and the cost of replacement parts don't soften the blow. It's the same as a sports car, find a rich person who has upgraded and buy their awesome boat.
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Nov 26, 2014 00:13
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meltie posted:I have spent all afternoon reading Bumfuzzle - it starts here: http://www.bumfuzzle.com/blog/2003/09/01/septemberoctober-2003/ - it's a good read; I might buy the book for a friend for Christmas. Yes, they make some slap-head mistakes (topfurler!) but fair play to them, they seemed better at learning on-the-job than most people. Yeah I lost about a week of my free time to that blog (and hours of slow time at work)
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Nov 29, 2014 17:38
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meltie posted:I'm about half-way through I think. It's good, but I wish they'd actually SAIL somewhere instead of dieselling all over the place when there's wind! Is there something a bit special about a liveaboard cat where you have to use the motor if the wind is above 5kts? Yeah, that's the problem with them, not catamarans. They were super impatient and weren't very good at finding good wind. Remember, they'd never done their classes and learned anything about sail trim or use of different headsails.
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Dec 6, 2014 01:19
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Goddamn, that is loving beautiful, and classy as gently caress.
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Dec 6, 2014 19:43
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Rime posted:First day on the water. Classroom next week, two more water days, and then exam to get basic skipper / crew cert. Best time to do it too, you get to learn to handle nasty weather. I had the second half of my ASA103 cert class November 16th last year.
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Dec 7, 2014 01:10
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BigFuzzyJesus posted:Someone tell me more about these ASA certs though, are they difficult to get? whats the likelihood of me finding a class to start the process in Minnesota or Iowa? My brother and I have a sunfish we love to rip around on, and just sold our hobie 16 because of lack of time to use it. But when I was 15 we went to the BVI on a barefoot cruise with just our family on a Hatteras (36 I think) and I remember thinking about how some day, I would get the licenses and be able to rent one of those catamarans with my family and run over mooring buoys while every experienced seaman around me laughed while I yelled at my wife about how to use a gaff.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:45
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Can anybody who has made large boat purchases in the past talk about boat financing? I assume you can get something similar to a mortgage, like you would a house? Because house prices here in Seattle are basically the same as a new ~45ft catamaran.
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Dec 28, 2014 03:04
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Rime posted:The annual moorage, liveaboard or otherwise, for a 45ft catamaran in Seattle would likely exceed any reasonable mortgage payments by a significant amount.
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Dec 28, 2014 05:28
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Rime posted:Well it was queried as an alternative to owning a house there, so assumptions were made. I figure if I budget about USD$100k/year to living expenses and boat maintenance while sailing around the world it would be appropriate for a ~45-ft catamaran. Those go new for (depending on the model and manufacturer) USD$400-850k, and I think I can get a relatively new one in good condition for $300-500k, possibly less. That's a lot of money and it isn't easy but it's at least a target to go for.
Kenshin fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 17:53
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n0tqu1tesane posted:Guys, remember to keep an eye on the weather forecast while you're out on the water. Storms can get pretty nasty, pretty quick. A friend of mine lost his sailboat in this mess: Yikes. For my fellow sailors: * Know how to very quickly heave-to in heavy weather * Know that scandalizing the main is an option if you get in trouble and depowering your sails becomes an emergency (as in, release your halyard) because messing up your halyard or mainsail is preferable to losing your boat * Be very conservative about reefing your sails. Do it before you need to, not after. If a gale comes up and you already had two reefs in your main you're going to be in a lot less trouble than if you'd been charging through the wind with a full main
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Apr 28, 2015 22:24
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Nice! I enjoyed it, good discussion of what you've done. I just got back last week from a week long sail in the British Virgin Islands with a bunch of friends. We did bareboat charters for two catamarans through Voyage Yachts, with me skippering Freedom Seeker, a Voyage 500 (50-foot cat!) and my friend who helped organize the trip with me skippering Holoholo, a Voyage 440P (44-footer). The deck of my boat while moored at Norman Island just north of The Bight:  Some of my friends on the deck as we motored from Norman Island to Cooper Island (the wind was directly against us and we needed to make sure we got a mooring ball that day, so didn't feel like tacking back and forth the whole way!)  My perfect parking job at the Bitter End Yacht Club in a slip that was barely 10 feet wider than my boat (I'm inordinately proud of this as it was only the second time I'd ever had to back into a slip on a catamaran like this and I was dealing with a headwind the whole time):  Holoholo at sail from Cooper Island toward the Virgin Gorda Yacht Harbor (Spanish Town):  Freedom Seeker at anchor the last day of the trip, at Sandy Cay, just southeast of Jost Van Dyke:  I'm already working on getting the contract signed for my next charter: I'm taking Christelle, a 2001 Beneteau Oceanis 505, on a 4d/3n trip around the San Juan Islands in September.
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May 20, 2015 19:00
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ZincBoy posted:Nice! I have been down there a few time on a bare boat with the family. How did you like the cat? We have always been down on a monohull but are looking at a cat for next time. Always found we were motoring more than sailing given the number of fishing nets and reefs around. Glad to see you actually shook the sails out. I can't remember seeing too many cats with the sails out. We did lots of sailing, and I saw a lot of other catamarans sailing too. I think we sailed almost every day aside from motoring from Norman Island to Cooper Island. Highest speed we hit during the trip on sail was 9.2 knots on a close-reach on a pretty stiff ~22 knot apparent wind. And yeah, we went to The Baths.
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May 24, 2015 07:43
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The Locator posted:I think it needs more sails. "When you're on a run and in a hurry"
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Jul 14, 2015 03:10
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Beautiful. What's the beam on her, looks narrower than I'd expect from a sloop her size?
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Aug 4, 2015 15:30
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I skippered another charter with friends this past weekend, this time in the San Juan Islands close to home here in Seattle. s/v Christelle, a 50' Beneteau Oceanis. We had a comfortable trip with two days of good sailing and then two days of glassy seas with comfortable motoring. Split between 10 people (yes, we fit 10 on the boat fairly comfortably!) it only cost us about $440/person, self-provisioned (and including the cost of provisions and the moorage fee for the night we weren't anchored). Kenshin fucked around with this message at 06:16 on Sep 9, 2015 |
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Sep 9, 2015 06:06
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sharkytm posted:The San Juan's are gorgeous. Nice setup, and a good cruising boat. Got any more pictures? The Locator posted:What a fantastic way to vacation. Here's a few more pictures. I unfortunately don't have any good ones of the boat with my DSLR, this one of her tied to the dock at Orcas Island is from my phone.      some boats anchored near us in Echo Bay, Sucia Island.
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Sep 10, 2015 04:58
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AnimalChin posted:What determines whether you sail or you motor? When there's no wind there isn't much of an option, particularly if you've got places to go. No wind generally means smooth seas.
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Sep 10, 2015 05:05
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MrKatharsis posted:I'm considering a similar trip but probably in a much smaller boat. Any suggestions for renting a Catalina 25 or similar in north Puget Sound?
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Sep 10, 2015 16:58
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Alctel posted:I'm on my phone - what's a good way to edit them so they don't break tables? edit the code:code:
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Sep 10, 2015 19:53
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Keep those lessons up! Sailing is incredibly rewarding. I just completed my ASA 106 (Advanced Coastal Cruising) course two weeks ago. Just two left!
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Oct 20, 2015 15:29
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Neslepaks posted:I find it hilarious that you think that little thing has a radio, signal flags, and horn. Get real. If they are in the US they are legally obligated to have some of those things, even on that little power boat.
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Dec 30, 2015 16:55
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I skippered another charter trip with friends last week, this time out of La Paz, Baja California Sur, Mexico. 197(6?) 41' Morgan "Out Island" ketch, through SeaScape charters, named after this, their largest sailboat, s/v SeaScape. My first time sailing a ketch. The mizzen makes the boat much easier to balance, to the point where I had it pretty balanced in rough upwind sailing and the lack of autopilot wasn't a big issue.
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Jan 18, 2016 19:28
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th vwls hv scpd posted:41' Morgans are more like a greyhound bus than a boat. I spent a week on one with my old boy scout troop at SeaBase in Isla Morada. I think there were 3 adult scoutmasters, the captain and 9 scouts. It was tight, but I don't remember feeling cramped. On the downside, it has steering feel best described as "numb." There's a complete disconnect between what I did with the wheel and how the boat responded--no feedback between the wheel and the rudder. I've never been on a sailboat with such a lack of any sort of steering feel. On the other hand, it felt pretty similar to 70s-era hydraulic steering in cars, so go figure.
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Jan 19, 2016 01:05
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I'm hopefully going to make an appointment to go see a 1997 Crowther Spindrift 40' catamaran in the next few weeks. I'm not in a position to buy yet (not for another year, really) and I made that clear in the email to the broker, but I figure I should get used to looking at sailboats I'm interested in with a very critical eye. There were apparently quite a few Crowthers of various types made through the years, and they seem pretty well-regarded, but I can't really find any first-hand experiences of living on and owning one of this model and year on the internet, so we'll see. I have seen the accounts of living on the 80s model but from all the pictures they seem to be very, very different boats (though obviously from the styling by the same designer) Anybody else have experience in the "buying a sailboat you have to get a mortgage for" arena? Kenshin fucked around with this message at 02:12 on Feb 18, 2016 |
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Feb 18, 2016 02:09
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I filmed my January sailing trip, though I hadn't really sorted through the footage and learned how to use Adobe Premiere correctly until this past weekend. But hey, now this exists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYAGcUpzTBE
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Mar 22, 2016 16:06
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