Nautical Insanity: That's not a leak you're sinking

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Nautical Insanity: That's not a leak you're sinking

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Sweet, I searched all the forums and was surprised there was no thread for marine hijinks anywhere.

I'm taking a sailing course next month that'll get to basic crew certification , after years of fighting back the urge. Quite excited. :woop:

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 00:34

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 10:50

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Canada, (CYA) Basic Crew / Basic Cruising standard. Hoping to get VHF / Nav done in the spring when my schedule is open again.

# ¿ Nov 20, 2014 00:38

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

BrokenKnucklez posted:

Just curious to the people who spend time on the ocean. What is the "ideal" sized sail boat for living and being on the ocean? One of my end goals is to buy a sail boat after I retire and just spend the rest of my life putting around the Caribbean.

It is not the size, but the design, and indeed the smaller the boat the easier it is. Boats also get exponentially more expensive to moor once you cross 30'. Can you singlehand it? Are the lines lead aft, or to the mast? What is the AVS rating? How is stowage, both for gear and rations? Is the layout appropriate for changing watches? How much water does the cockpit ship? Are the decks wide enough for comfort?

http://bluewaterboats.org/ lists many a gorgeous vessel capable of a cruise lasting years. Many of them were limited production, and are still commanding a premium after nearly fifty years.

Myself, one day I fully intend to live and circumnavigate on a Nor'Sea 27, one of the most capable, comfortable, and seaworthy pocket cruisers ever built:

# ¿ Nov 25, 2014 23:19

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Kenshin posted:

Also, modern water-makers are pretty great. We had one on the catamaran in Mexico and even with 8 people on the boat we only topped the tanks off at a dock once the entire trip and we hadn't been frugal at all.

Lawd are they ever expensive though, over $5k (more for tropical) for a Katadyn and the cost of replacement parts don't soften the blow.

Looking around for a while I've discovered that its best not to kit out a boat yourself, instead find someone who's done all that and run out of cash and ride on their misfortune to save your own bank account.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2014 00:07

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Six hours in the pouring rain later, unable to feel my fingertips, I can now sort of sail a boat :woop:

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 00:02

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

First day on the water. Classroom next week, two more water days, and then exam to get basic skipper / crew cert.

Everyone said I was crazy to sail in December. It was fun as hell. :black101:

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 00:50

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Last weekend we were trying to sail in a knot of wind, this weekend we got 25 knots and driving rain while doing our practical exam.

That was the most fun I've had in ages. :haw:

# ¿ Dec 21, 2014 00:04

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

So I've heard that the best way to get experience (since club registration is march) is to show up at the docks and try to crew on Race day. However, I am greatly intimidated by the idea of loving up a race with my twenty hours of experience on a boat and poor grasp of technique. I am easily flustered under pressure in front of others.

Should I just suck it up? I don't want to get rusty before I can club it up in the spring.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2014 05:34

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Alctel posted:

The boat here is def used for fishing, I saw the guy go out two or three times fishing. His dumb boat has 45x the horsepower of my sailboat, hah.

It's amazing to me how many people here have a hugely expensive boat that they touch maybe twice a summer. My dock has a large liveaboard community (maybe 50%) so it's even worse in other marinas!

You should see some of the marinas in False Creek. Burrard Civic is like 50% full of these green-tinged hulks that look like they haven't left the slip within the 21st century, and so much bottom growth that it's a miracle they haven't gone straight to the bottom yet. I know it's cheap there, but goddamn, it would really be nice if the city gave the worst offenders the boot so that the waiting list wasn't over two years long. :psyduck:

# ¿ Dec 25, 2014 19:54

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

The annual moorage, liveaboard or otherwise, for a 45ft catamaran in Seattle would likely exceed any reasonable mortgage payments by a significant amount.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2014 05:09

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Well it was queried as an alternative to owning a house there, so assumptions were made. :shrug:

# ¿ Dec 28, 2014 12:13

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Since there's a lot of PNW folks in here, would you do me a solid and let me know if you ever see a Nor'Sea 27' for sale in your neck of the woods? They're getting rare as hens teeth these days, but I'll be in a position to buy next year so I'm on the hunt.

Missed one with a trailer on the east coast that some drat Americans picked up due to the instant 25% discount. :argh:

# ¿ Oct 8, 2015 02:39

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Its a small price to pay for a tunnel which would have horrified a thousand years of monarchs.

# ¿ Oct 24, 2015 10:17

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Friend just finished restoring this to open an eco-tour business. She's a beauty:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQPROM3BWN6/

# ¿ Apr 13, 2017 02:38

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

I'm trying really hard not to buy this Klepper Aerius with a full S2 rig circa '75 right now. Things are beastly if you put outriggers on' em.

Rime fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Sep 24, 2017

# ¿ Sep 24, 2017 18:50

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Is A confirmed to actually be capable of sailing now, then? I remember some kerfuffle last year regarding claims that the sails were for show and not functionally usable in most weather.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2017 19:35

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Aloha, thread, haven't posted in here in many a year. Went and looked at a Hans Christian 33 and a Nor'Sea 27 this week to set up as my part-time pied-a-tier on the west coast and eventually resume my early twenties dream of taking off for Antarctica.

The Nor'Sea was a totally unseaworthty basket case for which the $15,000 asking price was almost offensive despite my best hopes. Sad, since they're selling as fast as they hit market now and the price basically doubled last year. I wouldn't cast off in this one before putting at least $50k into it and that's doing the work myself - impossible as it's sitting in Waikiki.

The HC33 was fuckin' tight design wise and confirms it is indeed a dream boat, checks off basically every box, but $89k USD is on the upper end of what I want to marine mortgage and I know refitting these for offshore costs $$$$ or time + $$. Also the extra 2" of draft and extra 10,000lbs for and extra 6' LWL and 3' of beam has me wary, even though the hull design makes them ridiculous nigh-unsinkable tanks. Full teak decks is also a major blargh, even if these ones won't leak when decayed and gently caress the deck structure thanks to no coring in the underlying GRP.

The search continues. Anyone have insight into marine mortgages?

# ¿ Mar 31, 2021 22:09

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Hey Femto, Jericho is offering the VHF operators certification 100% online right now for a reasonable price if you need it.

E: Actually it looks like a bunch of places are doing it online and Jericho is the most expensive!

Rime fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Apr 2, 2021

# ¿ Apr 2, 2021 20:15

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Femtosecond posted:

*Whew* found a spot so my status is no longer hosed.

If everyone isn't going on holiday because um, pandemic, well does that mean that the holiday places where they would be going to with their boat are empty?

Yes it does.

Popular holiday destination Saltspring Island, where you go for goat cheese and hippie vibes has nine 35 ft slips available.

I'll most likely take this, but boy is it off the beaten track from Vancouver. The ferry is from a suburb of Vancouver, makes a stop on the way to Saltspring, and only goes twice a day.

That being said it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative which is just anchoring my boat in Vancouver's False Creek, stressing out if the anchor is proper and it's not being raided by thieves.

What's the price on that bad boy?

# ¿ Apr 10, 2021 20:47

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Karma Comedian posted:

Just bought a steel Bruce Roberts spray 40

Yarr, ye be pilotin' a sweet piece o' sea booty what strike fear into many a motor vessel. :yarr:

# ¿ Apr 12, 2021 08:17

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Pro fiberglass tips for boats with mat layup rather than chopped strand:

- Get 60g fiber disks from HD, less aggressive than flap discs, and a variable speed angle grinder is your friend if you're new to this. If you're going to lay down multiple layers try and scarf each layer out to match your overlaps. Whatever you take out, must go back in, don't burn through layers.

- For Biax fiber overlap your layers by 5% of the weight in each direction (70mm for 1408 for example).

- outermost layer give yourself a mm or two of excess onto the paint / gelcoat and grind this off after it has cured, this will save a lot of headache when fairing later.

- Use a fuzzy paint roller for your initial wet out and a hard roller to composite the air bubbles out of the layers, if you're laying the fiber in dry. If you want to wet it out beforehand grab some Bondo spreaders and put the fiber in a sandwich of plastic and then use the spreaders to move the resin around inside until its 100% saturated, and then a few medium /strong pressure strokes to take excess out so you aren't resin rich.

- Definitely use peel ply, never laminate without it unless you wanna have a bad time at some point.

- If you're patching a through-hole make some hardback by curing an appropriately sized piece of fiber in resin, sandwiched in peel ply on a flat surface. This can be used to back the inner surface of the hole while filling the interior of the gap and later ground off to glass the interior layers or left as-is if it was sealed with something aggressive. Personally I'd glass both sides of a hole for peace of mind. That West System document goes over this in 4.2.2.

If you have an unlimited budget, a vacuum bagged repair will give you :discourse:

results.

With these simple steps you too can avoid having a repair like that one lady on YouTube, who bought a formosa and promptly cut two holes in her bow and then glassed over the gelcoat. :downs:

# ¿ Apr 15, 2021 03:05

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

I thought Fisheries Supply was the best WM alternative, they on the decline too?

# ¿ Apr 17, 2021 15:17

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Apr 20, 2021 01:39

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:56 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ May 8, 2021 22:45

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Dec 21, 2021 01:22

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Dec 21, 2021 17:51

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 19, 2022 23:28

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 21, 2022 00:44

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 21, 2022 01:13

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 24, 2022 14:56

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 24, 2022 18:49

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 26, 2022 00:56

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 26, 2022 01:28

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 27, 2022 21:24

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

MrYenko posted:

For a doofus landsman, why is encapsulated concrete such a big no-no?

Cement weighs around 150 lbs. per cu. ft.
Cast iron weighs around 450 lbs. per cu. ft.
Lead weighs around 700 lbs. per cu ft.

quote:

While there have been a number of boats which have had cement ballast, there is nothing good about cement ballast and if that is really the case it would normally be a deal breaker for me.

As Bob Perry pointed out there is a big difference in density between a proper lead ballast and the usually mix of steel and concrete that is typically referred to as 'concrete ballast'. The low density of that mixture (appoximately half of lead) means that it is harder to get the ballast as low in the boat as would be the case with lead ballast which usually results in some mix of a wider and/or longer encapsulation envelope inducing greater drag, more draft than might be required by a denser ballast, or less stability. The greater drag and the lesser stability result in measurably reduced performance over a normal encasulated keel, and even greater reduction over an external, bolted-on cast lead (or even iron) ballast.

Beyond the performance issues of low density ballast, there are serious issues from a quality control and from long term durability and maintainability issues that would concern me. To explain, normally when people talk about 'concrete ballast', that more typically refers to concrete with scrap steel mixed in. The scrap steel is normally in the form of 'boiler punchings' which has come to be used as a generic shorthand term for small pieces of scrap steel produced in various manufacturing processes.

In the best case, the steel is carefully weighed and the concrete carefully mixed so that the ballast is of a uniform weight from boat to boat and the steel is uniformly distributed through the matrix. What more typically happens is that the steel is added 'by eye' and so the ballast can vary in weight pretty dramatically, and the steel can be located assymentrically in all directions.

Using best practices, the ballast is cast out side of the fiberglass keel encapsulation envelope allowing the concrete to cure (and shrink) before being inserted into the keel encapsulation envelope. Then the encapsulation envelope is generously filled with a slurry that is a mix of resin and a thickening agent and the ballast casting set into place. Once the slurry sets, the top of the concrete is carefully glassed over to a thickness that is close to the hull thickness. Lastly transverse framing is added over the top to stiffen the joint between the keel and the hull.

That is rarely done. Often the concrete is cast in the hull mold. Most times a light membrane is added over the top of the concrete and that is it. The problem is with these items are that when concrete is poured and cures, it shrinks, pulling away from the mould, which in this case is the encapsulation envelope. Instead of a watertight bond between the concrete and glass, there is a small but perfect capillary to allow water/moisture to move around the casting. Once moisture gets into the encapsulation envelope the steel in the ballast can begin to rust and pry apart the concrete matrix, shattering it into small pieces. (I once helped a fellow dig out all of the ballast from a Buccaneer which had disintegrated. We removed pieces of damp rusty concrete that were as large as 3-4 inches and as small as sand.)

And in most cases, unless the boat is built extremely well, water does eventually get into the encapsulation envelope. It gets in by a number of routes. In the case of the Buccaneer that I mentioned above, we concluded that the boat apparently had a minor grounding. It was a grounding which did not pierce the encapsulation envelope, but it did cause enough of an impact that, in the absense of a heavy enough membrane and/or transverse framing, there was adequate deflection to cause the ballast to push up through the membrane above the ballast. It only made a small slice in the glass, but it was enough to allow bilge water to seep into the encapsulation and rust out the steel, and blow the concrete apart.

But water can also get in from the bottom if the encapsulation envelope is pierced in a grounding. Once water gets in there, its almost impossible to get out again since the concrete will absorb the water like a sponge. And that moisture not only attacks the steel in the ballast, it also can attack the fiberglass. One of the surprises on the Buccaneer was that the fiberglass was badly blistered in the interior of the encapsulation envelope.

But beyond these issues is a bigger one in my mind. Concrete ballast is only used as a cost savings measure since there is no good reason to use Concrete ballast except to save money. And when I see a manufacturer electing to use concrete in the matrix, I always am suspicious of the overall quality of the boat thinking that, if a manufacturer chose to cut this large corner, I wonder what other, less obvious corners were cut in the process.

I should note that I am a little surprised that Hutchins who built the Compacts used concrete ballast. I have always perceived them as being a better builder than that. Hutchins is still in business and you might want to contact them to discuss how these boats were built in more detail.

As you can imagine from the above, pouring concrete into a steel hull - which traditionally rust from the inside out - is loving stupid. :wtc:

# ¿ Jan 28, 2022 18:24

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Jan 29, 2022 19:57

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Pham Nuwen posted:

I was idling browsing boats today and have to say this one looks pretty drat cool: https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/1980-blue-water-ingrid-38-8020331/

But I don't know how to sail, and I like being married, so I'm just posting it in here.

That is such an insane loving deal that there must be a catch, there's a ferrocement Ingrid for sale down in Mexico for $50k right now.

Those boats are beautiful and will go anywhere.

# ¿ Feb 2, 2022 21:32

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Hadlock posted:

Will the keel fall fall off just floating in the slip? Probably not?

Ingrids are full keel so that'd be a sight, not sure I'd trust the rigging to hold the mast up if it left the slip tho. :haw:

# ¿ Feb 2, 2022 23:52

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

I've always thought that buying some classic cruiser and burying it to the waterline on a rural property would give me that hella cozy underground living space I want, for pretty cheap compared to any other housing in the province. :hmmyes:

# ¿ Feb 5, 2022 19:57

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 10:50

Rime: Nov 2, 2011; by Games Forum

Rime fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Aug 6, 2022

# ¿ Feb 8, 2022 01:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Automotive Insanity > Nautical Insanity: That's not a leak you're sinking

«‹›2 »