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The_Frag_Man posted:Why does Squall think his ring is powerful? I don't get it. The plot of FFVIII is like the bad guys queuing up to attack you one at a time in Arkham Asylum. Once you notice it you’ll wish you hadn’t but ultimately you shouldn’t let it spoil the game for you. It’s a stupid unrealistic thing but without it we wouldn’t have a game.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:37
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I've always been a little more baffled at Ultimecia creating a new GF from scratch out of a figment of Squall's imagination. Since it's never really clear where GFs come from in the first place, at least the way I remember it, there's no way to tell if she's breaking a rule, pulling something out of nowhere, or doing something genuinely impressive.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:53
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Keromaru5 posted:I've always been a little more baffled at Ultimecia creating a new GF from scratch out of a figment of Squall's imagination. Since it's never really clear where GFs come from in the first place, at least the way I remember it, there's no way to tell if she's breaking a rule, pulling something out of nowhere, or doing something genuinely impressive. She's a Sorceress. She's using Actual Magic. Only instead of pulling a giant icicle out of nowhere, she's pulling a GF out of someone's consciousness.
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Nov 2, 2017 20:56
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Plus the big bad making you fight your own worst fear is a common trope
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Nov 2, 2017 21:33
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Slavic Crime Yacht posted:Plus the big bad making you fight your own worst fear is a common trope Of course, that sometimes has complications.
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Nov 2, 2017 21:40
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EponymousMrYar posted:She's a Sorceress. She's using Actual Magic. Beyond just using Actual Magic, mind reading and control magic is basically the backbone of Ultimecia's whole plan. Pulling Griever out of Squall's mind is a lot like what she does to Seifer, using a dream as a weapon. The_Frag_Man posted:Why does Squall think his ring is powerful? I don't get it. It's not the ring Squall thinks is powerful, but what it represents. He thinks of the lion as someone strong enough to be true to themselves and stand on their own. The GF having the same name as the ring is meant to call the connection between the two out explicitly, since a player is unlikely to make that visual link.  Fun fact: some Ultimania also apparently says that lions only exist in Squall's imagination in the FF8 world, so it would also make more sense if that were reflected anywhere in the text.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:03
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So Griever is Squall's ORIGINAL CHARACTER DO NOT STEAL?
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Nov 3, 2017 00:41
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Yes, absolutely.
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Nov 3, 2017 00:56
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No wonder he went full Lion Heart on that bitch.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:26
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now I'm gonna have to replay this game and rename Griever to DonutSteel.
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Nov 3, 2017 01:48
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I'm a nerd and I approve this LP.
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Nov 3, 2017 17:06
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Psion posted:now I'm gonna have to replay this game and rename Griever to FTFY
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Nov 3, 2017 18:44
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I reject your fix  now if you'll excuse me, I need to write a 5000 word dissertation on why Original Character, Donut Steel is in fact the best Original Character ever, and how they are literally perfect in every way except a convenient character flaw which has zero practical impact on their perfection and ....
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Nov 3, 2017 19:04
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Psion posted:I reject your fix Unfortunately, there aren't enough spaces in the name for "Christian Humber."
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Nov 3, 2017 19:10
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I like the concept of naming a ring Donut Steel. It's so literal. 
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Nov 3, 2017 23:25
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I'm still of the camp that Adel's successor hunt was her finding and killing the competition so that she could continue her reign of terror. That camp of thinking does hinge on the "sorceresses are effectively immortal if there's no one to pass their powers to" line of thought, though. (And it would take a special level of Ultimecia-level crazy to want to be unable to die no matter what happens and no matter the injury. By compressing time and collecting all the sorceress powers, she would become The Only Sorceress In Existence Forever.)
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Nov 3, 2017 23:59
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if sorcerers were immortal if they couldnt pass their powers over then the plot would be pretty stupid in a few parts. like ultimecia giving up her powers to edea instead of just living forever. im under the impression if they dont pass their powers it just means they have a lovely afterlife like becoming ghosts or something.
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Nov 4, 2017 00:13
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Iretep posted:if sorcerers were immortal if they couldnt pass their powers over then the plot would be pretty stupid in a few parts. like ultimecia giving up her powers to edea instead of just living forever. im under the impression if they dont pass their powers it just means they have a lovely afterlife like becoming ghosts or something. Yeah, Ultimecia running into Edea did require her to pass on her powers; there was a sorceress in proximity and Ultimecia was mortally injured. If Ultimecia had appeared post-battle in an area without a sorceress, I think she could have delayed death until either that sorceress found her or her "gotta katch them all" mentality drove her to seek her out (to fatal results). But the lovely afterlife theory is more in keeping with the game's Japanese origins.
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Nov 4, 2017 00:24
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Angrboda posted:I'm still of the camp that Adel's successor hunt was her finding and killing the competition so that she could continue her reign of terror. I get the impression any woman can become a sorceress, so if that were the case she would have had to kill literally everyone else. I still think all this might have been explained if Ultimeca possessing her in her youth left some knowledge or obsession with Ellone that triggered the whole hunt.
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Nov 4, 2017 08:06
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I always thought Adel looking for a successor was just the cover for Ultimecia looking for Ellone. But I feel like Cool Ghost has debunked that, didn't he say it was explicitly shown Adel was never under control or something?
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Nov 4, 2017 08:18
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She was at some point because that's how Ultimecia finally achieves time compression, just presumably not during any time we actually see Adel.
Avalerion fucked around with this message at 08:46 on Nov 4, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 08:43
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Cool Ghost posted:The "In Squall's mind..." scan text is a bit vestigial, but apparently Griever's nature is more explicit in Ultimecia's Japanese dialogue: You could substitute another gf for griever - but ultimately yeah, I think the text does debunk the theory, in particular the Japanese version. I just think it would tie together the themes of the game in a more satisfying manner (this depends on your perspective) if they were one and the same. As well as giving the gfs make you forget plot point significance past the point at which it’s revealed. It’s a much more interesting theory than Squall is dead for that reason - it raises the question of the themes of the game and how they’re related. Death theory is pretty much just to poo poo on the game.
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Nov 4, 2017 17:25
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Cavelcade posted:It’s a much more interesting theory than Squall is dead for that reason - it raises the question of the themes of the game and how they’re related. Death theory is pretty much just to poo poo on the game. Was Squall is Dead ever a serious explanation about the plot? I always thought it was just making GBS threads on the plot.
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Nov 4, 2017 18:27
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Weavered posted:Was Squall is Dead ever a serious explanation about the plot? I always thought it was just making GBS threads on the plot. I always read it as the same bull that comes out any time a character might or almost dies in anything.
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Nov 4, 2017 20:18
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OxySnake posted:I always read it as the same bull that comes out any time a character might or almost dies in anything. I don't think the theory is true and is more of convenient way to say, "well this would explain why the story totally goes off the rails", there's certainly more to it than "he almost died BUT WHAT IF HE DID!" Somebody made a website about it. http://squallsdead.com/
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Nov 4, 2017 20:32
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Schwartzcough posted:I don't think the theory is true and is more of convenient way to say, "well this would explain why the story totally goes off the rails", I mean the real problem is it doesn't actually explain anything because it fails basic literary structure 101. We're still playing ff8, a game with a story, and if they decide the protagonist dies on disc 1 and is therefore dead from 2-4, you have to eventually go back to the world they spent a whole disc setting up and close it. the problem is the game itself would close on squall's death as the 'dream' ends - but okay, you still need a denouement. There isn't one, in this case. Meanwhile if we accept the story is what it actually is, that structure is complete and works just fine (the climax is killing Ultemecia, the denoument is, well, the ending) as far as I can tell the general response to this is "yeah but wouldn't it be COOL if they left it up to our interpretation" and, no. It'd be an even worse story than the one we have, because it wouldn't even be a complete story. also it'd be stupid. e: you know what it is? It reminds me of an even worse version of Mass Effect 3 "lots of speculation" years before Bioware went and put their loving foot in it. And at least ME3 had a denoument, no matter how ... uh, less than well-received it was. no wonder I hate this theory  Psion fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 4, 2017 21:01
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I was originally planning to mention Squall is Dead in the R=U post, but decided against it because I think Squall is Dead might be taking the piss. If it's not, though, there's nothing to it other than saying the events of this already-fictional game didn't happen.
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Nov 5, 2017 00:21
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From what I understand, the guy who originally came up with the theory for Squall is Dead wasn't really serious about it, but a bunch of people online latched on to the idea really hard. And because of how subtle the game is with some of its storytelling and world building, it's a lot easier for some of these people to accept an inane "the protagonist was really dying/dead all along" twist than it is to just assume, "Oh, they must have given him medical attention off-screen so that he could be interrogated."
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Nov 5, 2017 00:39
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"Character X is actually dead" is generally just pretty lame, because it's like the lowest form of fan theory. It's basically just rejecting everything about a given story, usually in a fantasy, sci-fi or otherwise supernatural setting. It's an incredibly boring way to look at fiction, imo. Why would you want to jump through a ton of mental gymnastics just to prove that fictitious events in a fictive story aren't real? Like no poo poo, things in a story aren't real? Who would have thought? "Well actually all the weird stuff is explained by so-and-so being dead/in a coma/dreaming."  Attestant fucked around with this message at 12:57 on Nov 6, 2017 |
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Nov 6, 2017 12:55
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Attestant posted:"Character X is actually dead" is generally just pretty lame, because it's like the lowest form of fan theory. It's basically just rejecting everything about a given story, usually in a fantasy, sci-fi or otherwise supernatural setting. It's an incredibly boring way to look at fiction, imo.
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Nov 6, 2017 13:13
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I've shotgunned through this OP over the last month. Thank you for everything you've done for this game, Kool Ghost. VIII was my first and is my favorite of the series, and I'm happy to see it given its due. That ending always kills me.
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Nov 6, 2017 17:31
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agent blue posted:That ending always kills me. It’s one of the best in the franchise. I give the edge to XV, probably because my expectations had been thoroughly lowered by that point. VIII is a much better, more complete game.
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Nov 6, 2017 21:07
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Schwartzcough posted:Or it could just be part of the game's rather clumsy storytelling, like why Edea can still use innate magic like a sorceress even after she supposedly passed on her sorceress powers. To be fair, Quistis and Selphie can also innately use magic. It seems to be a thing with female characters in VIII's universe.
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Nov 8, 2017 19:34
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And Rinoa can summon her dog from literally any time or place and have her appear instantly. I'd kill for that magic power
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Nov 8, 2017 19:40
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Not quite, you can't use Angelo in space.
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Nov 8, 2017 20:18
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Cool Ghost posted:Not quite, you can't use Angelo in space. Squall can still using Blasting Zone when he's on a spaceship, though. Has nothing to do with the current conversation but it looks silly.
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Nov 8, 2017 20:21
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Cool Ghost posted:Not quite, you can't use Angelo in space. That's only because there's no dog sized space helmets
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Nov 8, 2017 21:35
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Psion posted:I mean the real problem is it doesn't actually explain anything because it fails basic literary structure 101. We're still playing ff8, a game with a story, and if they decide the protagonist dies on disc 1 and is therefore dead from 2-4, you have to eventually go back to the world they spent a whole disc setting up and close it. the problem is the game itself would close on squall's death as the 'dream' ends - but okay, you still need a denouement. There isn't one, in this case. Meanwhile if we accept the story is what it actually is, that structure is complete and works just fine (the climax is killing Ultemecia, the denoument is, well, the ending) Mass Effect 3 has its own "Squall is dead" theory that says that Shepard is dominated by the reapers at the end or something and the ending didn't happen.
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Nov 9, 2017 01:23
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AdmiralViscen posted:Mass Effect 3 has its own "Squall is dead" theory that says that Shepard is dominated by the reapers at the end or something and the ending didn't happen. The theory about the gas leak makes more sense there since apparently the writers locked themselves in a room to finish the script
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Nov 9, 2017 01:36
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AdmiralViscen posted:Mass Effect 3 has its own "Squall is dead" theory that says that Shepard is dominated by the reapers at the end or something and the ending didn't happen. INDOCTRINATION. I haven't even actually played that game and I know about its stupid loving fan theory because ME players won't stop loving whining about the ending. People want to complain about how a game fucks up its own lore, look at Lighting Returns. I didn't even finish the first main story quest because it's so jarring. (Also what is it about 13 and people latching onto the WORST characters? Snow and Hope were loving awful from the word go and I only barely tolerated either one in 13-2.)
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Nov 9, 2017 07:06
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