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wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010
So Chile is a mess right now, and becoming more of a mess, specifically today.

Customs officials and others went on indefinite strike starting today because, in talks with the government, they were unsatisfied with the mere 6% annual pay raise they were offered. The strike encompasses customs and, possibly (will confirm when not busy trying to figure out how to get goods out of port so I can stay in business. Thanks, Michelle.), municipal workers and public hospital workers.

The unions contend that with inflation running about 5.5% a 6% raise is kind of balls. While that's true, it's also true that Chile is projected to have a fiscal deficit of about 2% of GDP this year, worstening in 2015, and since this is a poor country with a population less than that of the greater NY metro area we can't just borrow the money as would happen in the U.S.. Taxes are already going up (corporate taxes, and misc stuff you wouldn't know existed unless you had to pay them) to pay for EDUCATION REFORM and other huge clusterfucks to be announced so that avenue is a dry hole.

Costs are going up because of taxes, because of the exchange rate (since dollars are fleeing the country like rats on a sinking ship), and because smaller companies that can't cope are being forced out of business. That fuels inflation, which fuels wage demands, which fuel inflation, etc...

And in the middle of that goods can't get into the country, paperwork can't get processed, and in general things don't work because there's no professional civil servive and the political cronies put in place by Bachelet don't know what the gently caress they're doing. SOCIAL JUSTICE is more important than having a functional state. Awesome.

Basically this bullshit is hosed and Simon Bolivar was right to look back on his life's work and despair. IMO a good dose of western imperialism would really spruce the place up because we are pathologically incapable of organizing anything more complex than an asado.

I welcome your thoughts. God bless.

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The Warszawa
Jun 6, 2005

Look at me. Look at me.

I am the captain now.
Okay, the invocation of Western Imperialism has me baffled - what's the argument that Latin America isn't Western?

Also, the pathologizing of institutional misfeasance and malfeasance as a social trait is something I've found pretty common in discussions of Latin America, including and perhaps especially those driven by Latin Americans - I'm sure someone's getting their PhD off a sociological study of how internalizing "we can't organize poo poo" facilitates graft and whatnot, but I'm interested in your perspective on how widespread that sentiment is in the region. For obvious reasons, most of my conversations are with members of various expatriate communities (either immigrant or refugee) and I'm curious how political thought on the region aligns and diverges between stayers and goers.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

Did Chile run out of copper and fish?

Most people in this forum will know absolutely nothing about Chile's economy, I only know a touch because I lived in La Serena briefly as a child. Can you give some more background?

The Warszawa
Jun 6, 2005

Look at me. Look at me.

I am the captain now.

hobbesmaster posted:

Did Chile run out of copper and fish?

Most people in this forum will know absolutely nothing about Chile's economy, I only know a touch because I lived in La Serena briefly as a child. Can you give some more background?

I'm pretty sure (though I may be wrong) that there's a ton of deferred or written off revenues from taxing Codelco because there appears to be an upfront tax deferral because of the capital intensive nature of the industry. So there's still copper it's just difficult to get state revenues out of it.

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.
is the falling price of copper playing any role here?

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

The Warszawa posted:

Okay, the invocation of Western Imperialism has me baffled - what's the argument that Latin America isn't Western?

Also, the pathologizing of institutional misfeasance and malfeasance as a social trait is something I've found pretty common in discussions of Latin America, including and perhaps especially those driven by Latin Americans - I'm sure someone's getting their PhD off a sociological study of how internalizing "we can't organize poo poo" facilitates graft and whatnot, but I'm interested in your perspective on how widespread that sentiment is in the region. For obvious reasons, most of my conversations are with members of various expatriate communities (either immigrant or refugee) and I'm curious how political thought on the region aligns and diverges between stayers and goers.

It is incorrect to say "Western" Imperialism, you really should say "mostly American imperialism."

quote:

is the falling price of copper playing any role here?

It isn't helping, copper make up over 50% of Chile's total exports, and reduced Chinese demand is going to hit them. However, the total drop in prices, is still below 10% this year. That said, much of South America is under pressure, and that is always going to hit Chilean exports.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 16:27 on Nov 26, 2014

rscott
Dec 10, 2009
Getting a distinct "Pinochet at least made the ports run on time" vibe here

Badera
Jan 30, 2012

Student Brian Boyko has lost faith in America.

rscott posted:

Getting a distinct "Pinochet at least made the ports run on time" vibe here

That's because he's a Pinochet apologist, hth

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Badera posted:

That's because he's a Pinochet apologist, hth

Yeah, but if anything his post shows more or less how bitterly divided Chilean politics are, especially since Bachelet is soft center-leftist and is hardly a Marxist firebrand.

A 2% deficit isn't a nightmare, Chile desperately needs some types of educational reforms and it needs increased revenue/counter-cyclical spending.

hoiyes
May 17, 2007
Yeah but how good are asados? I rest my case. Also, impeach Dilma because she won the election using poor people votes. (Am I doing this right?)

Wistful of Dollars
Aug 25, 2009

Increase alpaca production and exports.

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

hoiyes posted:

Yeah but how good are asados? I rest my case.

And Pebre! And for desert something nondescript and covered in manjar!

Frijolero
Jan 24, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo
Firstly, gently caress you. Imperialism is the reason Latin America has been consistently poor and unstable.

Secondly, it seems like your main gripe is with Bachelet and social democrats. So what?

Thirdly, I feel like the fuel to your anger is "How dare those workers demand more pay in a time like this???" Well you should realize that those wages will be a miniscule part of the budget. Also, there is nothing but benefits by paying people more. Especially people who do important public poo poo.

black potus
Jul 13, 2006
God's not real OP

wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

The Warszawa posted:

Okay, the invocation of Western Imperialism has me baffled - what's the argument that Latin America isn't Western?

There isn't an argument. I'm frustrated as hell, is all. If the US wanted to send a carrier group down here and take over I'd be 100% on board because atm our own government is incapable of keeping things running smoothly.

The Warszawa posted:

Also, the pathologizing of institutional misfeasance and malfeasance as a social trait is something I've found pretty common in discussions of Latin America, including and perhaps especially those driven by Latin Americans - I'm sure someone's getting their PhD off a sociological study of how internalizing "we can't organize poo poo" facilitates graft and whatnot, but I'm interested in your perspective on how widespread that sentiment is in the region. For obvious reasons, most of my conversations are with members of various expatriate communities (either immigrant or refugee) and I'm curious how political thought on the region aligns and diverges between stayers and goers.

LatAm is a big place and I can only really speak to my experiences in Chile and for me and the people I talk to, etc. Dissatisfaction with institutions is common but usually of low intensity. There is a pervasive attitude of "that's the way it is, take your number and get on with it" which helps people cope but also perpetuates and exacerbates problems. Chile is maybe a bit different than other places in the region in that institutions are more honestly incompetent than corrupt. The dude loving up your paperwork and adding weeks to an operation that should take days is just following a (bad) procedure to the best of his limited understanding rather than trying to shake you down.

Lately things have gotten worse, as the Bachelet administration systematically purged the civil service and replaced career bureaucrats with political cronies. To help you imagine what that´s like, idk, imagine the chaos it would cause if the incoming administration replaced everyone in the federal and state judiciaries down to the clerks with people who are ideologically loyal but may or may not know anything about their actual jobs. This is a thing that happens with every administration to some extent in Chile but this cycle it went all the way down the hierarchy.

hobbesmaster posted:

Did Chile run out of copper and fish?

Most people in this forum will know absolutely nothing about Chile's economy, I only know a touch because I lived in La Serena briefly as a child. Can you give some more background?

It's a broad topic but I´ll try to give some background. Chile exports copper and some other minerals, fish, agricultural products and wines, and timber, and imports most of everything else. There is some limited manufacturing here but it's expensive to do it (labor costs are high, tons of regulations to wade through) and quality tends to be bad. the U.S. is Chile's biggest trading partner (I think) and almost all trade is settled in dollars, so the peso/dollar exchange rate is a primary variable affecting and affected by the country's growth and inflation rates. Right now the peso is weak and weakeneing because of a combination of internal and external factors. Internally the political environment has investors nervous and they're parking their money in safer places. Externally, the fed is likely to raise interest rates and chilean central bank is lowering interest rates (due to a slowing economy) and copper is kind of low, all of which weakens the peso. It's a pretty bad combination of factors.

Average per capita GDP here is around 20,000 but really the economy is more two speed. People working in or around mining, financial services, and in a few other fields make much more and most people make much less. People living in the capital tend to make more - the provinces are pretty poor. Median income in Chile is probably around 10 or 12k.

Labor relations here are complex and volatile, and could be a post all in itself eventually.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ci.html

CIA factbook has some general Chile info though it's a bit out of date.


The Warszawa posted:

I'm pretty sure (though I may be wrong) that there's a ton of deferred or written off revenues from taxing Codelco because there appears to be an upfront tax deferral because of the capital intensive nature of the industry. So there's still copper it's just difficult to get state revenues out of it.

That, and Codelco produces copper at iirc one of the highest costs in the world. I've heard Codelco is not profitable if copper is below $3.00.

AstheWorldWorlds
May 4, 2011
Man, you gotta be pretty servile to want to be hosed even more by imperialism.

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.
looking up employment by sector statistics, looks like Chile spent the last two decades moving from 20% agricultural employment to 10% employment (this is still very high, as a note)

that's a lot of people to integrate into the non-subsistence-agriculture economy, especially since the economy has already moved past easy mass industrialization into services

the hate for even mild social democrats in Latin America can be explained in this angle rather easily - it is no less passionate than hate for immigrants in the developed West, even when immigration flows are not actually very high and the social problems of integration not actually very onerous. People who are Not Like You are taking your jobs and your politicians are taking their side, yada yada. Take a Western country, any Western country, and tell them that the government wants to add 10% 25% of the native population in desperately poor immigrants in the name of social justice and the natives just have to deal or be condemned as racist, fascist, or both, and you get the middle-class reaction that you'd expect.

ronya fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Nov 26, 2014

wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

ronya posted:

is the falling price of copper playing any role here?

Yes. Copper's the #1 source of foreign exchange and also contributes something like 10% of government revenue, so falling copper prices make everything more difficult.

Ardennes posted:

A 2% deficit isn't a nightmare, Chile desperately needs some types of educational reforms and it needs increased revenue/counter-cyclical spending.

In a large economy like that of the U.S. counter-cyclical spending is doable. A lot of the debt is held internally so essentially the U.S. can pay itself back. In a small economy like Chile's the buyers are external and the dynamic is different. Also, the exchange rate matters a lot. Tools available to large and productive economies are much more limited in Chile.

Beyond that the educational reforms Chile needs are nothing like the ones being mooted, which are focused on elminiating PROFIT in public education (not joking, this isn't hyperbole).

Asados are awesome. If only the government could run like a series of asados we'd be ok. =(

Collected comments:

Keeping order and making sure the lights stay on, that institutions function, etc, is literally the #1 job of a government. If you can't do that it doesn't matter how great your agenda is on paper. The great failure of latin america is having lofty goals but no ability to execute without loving everything else up.

Darkman Fanpage
Jul 4, 2012

hobbesmaster posted:

Did Chile run out of copper and fish?

Most people in this forum will know absolutely nothing about Chile's economy, I only know a touch because I lived in La Serena briefly as a child. Can you give some more background?

Chile also has a ton of agriculture. If you go to the grocery store you'll find a ton of produce originating in Chile.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

wateroverfire posted:

It's a broad topic but I´ll try to give some background. Chile exports copper and some other minerals, fish, agricultural products and wines, and timber, and imports most of everything else. There is some limited manufacturing here but it's expensive to do it (labor costs are high, tons of regulations to wade through) and quality tends to be bad. the U.S. is Chile's biggest trading partner (I think) and almost all trade is settled in dollars, so the peso/dollar exchange rate is a primary variable affecting and affected by the country's growth and inflation rates. Right now the peso is weak and weakeneing because of a combination of internal and external factors. Internally the political environment has investors nervous and they're parking their money in safer places. Externally, the fed is likely to raise interest rates and chilean central bank is lowering interest rates (due to a slowing economy) and copper is kind of low, all of which weakens the peso. It's a pretty bad combination of factors.

So how exactly beyond the issue "scaring away investment with educational reforms" is the situation going to be fixed with American troops on the ground if copper and other exports are taking a hit?

Should you raise interest rates with a economy increasingly coming under pressure? Just deregulate and hope American corporations bring manufacturing...even though you would have to compete with Vietnam for that investment?

quote:

Beyond that the educational reforms Chile needs are nothing like the ones being mooted, which are focused on elminiating PROFIT in public education (not joking, this isn't hyperbole).

Education is a public good, the goal shouldn't be profit but quality and accessibility. The only way Chile is going to work its way out is focusing on industries that require universal and accessible education, it can't compete for low-tech manufacturing, that ship has long for much of the world. Basically, Chile's problem has always been a lack of economic diversity and this goes back a long time. It has improved mildly over time, but mining is still dominate and a declining demand in China and tepid demand in the first world isn't going to help.

Also, the Peso started to devalue back in mid-2013, Bachelet took power in March 2014, maybe she is so bad she caused devaluation under Pinera? The reason she won in the first place was because Pinera was widely seen as corrupt, ineffectual and capricious.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Nov 26, 2014

wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

ronya posted:

the hate for even mild social democrats in Latin America can be explained in this angle rather easily - it is no less passionate than hate for immigrants in the developed West, even when immigration flows are not actually very high and the social problems of integration not actually very onerous. People who are Not Like You are taking your jobs and your politicians are taking their side, yada yada. Take a Western country, any Western country, and tell them that the government wants to add 10% of the native population in desperately poor immigrants in the name of social justice and the natives just have to deal or be condemned as racist, fascist, or both, and you get the middle-class reaction that you'd expect.

I feel like there's a big disconnect between the way political leanings are perceived from abroad looking in and the reality of the situation - for instance in Chile, radical elements have a big seat at the table. The communist party is part of the government for the first time since Allende.. But more than that, leftward leaning governments (in the region) tend to be associated with corruption, incompetence, and a breakdown of order. THAT is why there's a lot of hate for leftist governments.

If somehow competent people got into place and wanted to pursue a socially-democratic agenda I don't think it would be a problem.

In related news a couple of days ago some protesting students chained shut a PDI headquarters (Chilean FBI) and used molotov cocktails to set it on fire. Three police officers were seriously hurt. Government response:*mumble mumble*.

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.
that's normal - poorly-integrated immigrants are prone to populist cronyism and radical politics in the West too. Ethnic city machines have been a thing. The urban poor have political priorities besides eliminating corruption.

it's fair to point out that antipopulist governments in latin america have not, traditionally, been obviously less prone to cronyism. They do choose different cronies, and it's also fair to acknowledge that industrialist cronies are better for material growth than rural agitator cronies. Nonetheless wringing one's hands over corruption per se is a bit unbelievable.

DarkCrawler
Apr 6, 2009

by vyelkin

wateroverfire posted:

I feel like there's a big disconnect between the way political leanings are perceived from abroad looking in and the reality of the situation - for instance in Chile, radical elements have a big seat at the table. The communist party is part of the government for the first time since Allende.. But more than that, leftward leaning governments (in the region) tend to be associated with corruption, incompetence, and a breakdown of order. THAT is why there's a lot of hate for leftist governments.

Uhh, aren't right-wing governments in Latin America associated with all that + military juntas?

hoiyes
May 17, 2007

DarkCrawler posted:

Uhh, aren't right-wing governments in Latin America associated with all that + military juntas?

How can you be expected to run an effective public service without the unfettered ability to kidnap and torture your ideological rivals en masse?

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

wateroverfire posted:

Beyond that the educational reforms Chile needs are nothing like the ones being mooted, which are focused on elminiating PROFIT in public education (not joking, this isn't hyperbole).

You make it sound like this is some insane goal when most other countries do this. Just because Pinochet hosed your education system to hell and back doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Also the idea that left-wing governments in particular are corrupt or incompetent is precious. Uribe, Menem, Collor, and Calderón all beg to disagree.

Badger of Basra fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Nov 26, 2014

hobbesmaster
Jan 28, 2008

hoiyes posted:

How can you be expected to run an effective public service without the unfettered ability to kidnap and torture your ideological rivals en masse?

Why torture when you can just fly an hour out to sea and throw them out a plane?

wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

ronya posted:

that's normal - poorly-integrated immigrants are prone to populist cronyism and radical politics in the West too. Ethnic city machines have been a thing. The urban poor have political priorities besides eliminating corruption.

it's fair to point out that antipopulist governments in latin america have not, traditionally, been obviously less prone to cronyism. They do choose different cronies, and it's also fair to acknowledge that industrialist cronies are better for material growth than rural agitator cronies. Nonetheless wringing one's hands over corruption per se is a bit unbelievable.

That's fair enough. I would be happy amending my complaint to hand wringing over incompetent cronies breaking things. I would be much more relaxed if the agenda were the same but things were running smoothy, the government was paying suppliers on time, etc. edit: To be clear, the best would be to develop a professional civil service and a culture of not forcing that to turn over every election cycle. Failing that, yeah, it'd be good to at least have competent cronies.


Ardennes posted:

So how exactly beyond the issue "scaring away investment with educational reforms" is the situation going to be fixed with American troops on the ground if copper and other exports are taking a hit?

IDK. It's not a serious policy suggestion - just take it as "could we get some competent people running things please".

Ardennes posted:

Should you raise interest rates with a economy increasingly coming under pressure? Just deregulate and hope American corporations bring manufacturing...even though you would have to compete with Vietnam for that investment?

Like I said, Chile has very limited options for dealing with economic malaise compared to the states. Conundrums like "if we lower interest rates we will gently caress with the exchange rate" are real barriers to intervention. A good start would be to moderate the tone and abandon policies that are actively hostile to foreign investment, of which there are several. Modernizing labor laws would be another step. In the long term, as you point out, one of Chile´s major problems is a lack of economic diversity that goes back a long time and there is no facile solution for that. In the short term a lot has happened to scare away foreign capital and that is not making dealing with anything any easier.

Ardennes posted:

Education is a public good, the goal shouldn't be profit but quality and accessibility. The only way Chile is going to work its way out is focusing on industries that require universal and accessible education, it can't compete for low-tech manufacturing, that ship has long for much of the world.

I agree with all of this. The question is how to get there, and the government's plan for education just doesn't do it. The big issue at the moment, for instance, is doing away with subsidies to the hybrid public-private schools - basically private schools where students receive a government subsidy to cover most of their tuition - and possibly buying them outright to make them fully public. Leaving aside the need to find $9-$17 billion dollars to pay for that (depending on whose valuation you accept), everyone hates this plan. Literally everyone. Because as lovely as private schools in Chile are, the public schools are worse and no parent wants their children to attend public schools. So there is a serious problem with quality and availability but it's not being addressed.

Ardennes posted:

Also, the Peso started to devalue back in mid-2013, Bachelet took power in March 2014, maybe she is so bad she caused devaluation under Pinera? The reason she won in the first place was because Pinera was widely seen as corrupt, ineffectual and capricious.

There was a long primary full of revolutionary rhetoric and bad ideas leading up to the election, and as Bachelet's prospective government began to take shape and did NOT moderate leading up to the general people with money got pretty concerned. So yeah, the nueva mayoria (her coalition) was affecting exchange rates back in 2013. Bachelet won partially because people hated the right but mostly because she was a figure of godlike popularity when she came back to Chile and was able to ride that personal appeal into a sweep. It really was a phenomenon.

wateroverfire fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Nov 26, 2014

Ghost of Mussolini
Jun 26, 2011
Hi OP I think you have some legitimate gripes about how things are in Latin America (corrupt parties, weak institutions, etc.) but I think you've misplaced a lot of your anger. Calling for a US carrier group (seriously wtf) is a terrible idea, the Americans aren't going to airdrop liberal western norms into children's minds even if they were so inclined. Foreign intervention in Latin America has almost always been done to serve the worst, and most reactionary, parts of the oligarchy. We are talking about a legacy of hundreds of thousands murdered, "disappeared", tortured, etc. Military governments were also largely quite incompetent at economic matters, and Pinochet's rule was no panacea either (it partly looks so good on economic terms because around it every other dictatorship ran the economy into the ground repeatedly, while Pinochet banked that sweet copper money).

You may not like Bachelet (and there's a lot to criticise about her) but please remember that constitutional rule and human rights are pretty neat things to have and if that means dealing with strikes then that's a small price to pay compared with things like the Plan Cóndor or Operación Charly.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao


Is this the new Chile thread or can we talk about all issues re: Latin America? Because there seems to be a lot of dead people in Mexico and US levels of care appear to be around the level of however Turkey thinks of Kurds.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

wateroverfire posted:

Like I said, Chile has very limited options for dealing with economic malaise compared to the states. Conundrums like "if we lower interest rates we will gently caress with the exchange rate" are real barriers to intervention. A good start would be to moderate the tone and abandon policies that are actively hostile to foreign investment, of which there are several. Modernizing labor laws would be another step. In the long term, as you point out, one of Chile´s major problems is a lack of economic diversity that goes back a long time and there is no facile solution for that. In the short term a lot has happened to scare away foreign capital and that is not making dealing with anything any easier.

Modernizing labor laws is usually a code work for reduced worker rights and lower pay and benefits. It also unclear if Chile reduced worker rights to the bone what investment they would actually see beyond usual industries.

quote:

I agree with all of this. The question is how to get there, and the government's plan for education just doesn't do it. The big issue at the moment, for instance, is doing away with subsidies to the hybrid public-private schools - basically private schools where students receive a government subsidy to cover most of their tuition - and possibly buying them outright to make them fully public. Leaving aside the need to find $9-$17 billion dollars to pay for that (depending on whose valuation you accept), everyone hates this plan. Literally everyone. Because as lovely as private schools in Chile are, the public schools are worse and no parent wants their children to attend public schools. So there is a serious problem with quality and availability but it's not being addressed.

They sound pretty similar to American style "vouchers" which is worse than even charter schools. "No one wants to go to public schools" but exactly how many of the poorest of the poor people afford these private schools because they aren't free. Basically, public schools have been so undercut that the middle class is now pushed to support private schools, but ultimately it is going to led to predictable social divisions because not everyone can afford private schools, and if something isn't done then the public system completely fails.

quote:

There was a long primary full of revolutionary rhetoric and bad ideas leading up to the election, and as Bachelet's prospective government began to take shape and did NOT moderate leading up to the general people with money got pretty concerned. So yeah, the nueva mayoria (her coalition) was affecting exchange rates back in 2013. Bachelet won partially because people hated the right but mostly because she was a figure of godlike popularity when she came back to Chile and was able to ride that personal appeal into a sweep. It really was a phenomenon.

This sounds all like a lot of emotional charged wishful thinking, it is very clear Pinera was in big trouble.

Basically, it more or less sounds like VERY similar to arguements I hear in the states all the time.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Nov 26, 2014

sugar free jazz
Mar 5, 2008

Hola mis amigos! Soy de Chile! Yo quiero un American Carrier Group y deseo mi nacion convertirse Grenada! Me encanta Ronald Reagan! Ciao!

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!
What are these radical things Bachelet talk about that is scaring away investors?

Becuase outside of nationalization of all property I can't think of what it could be that would seriously effect investors.

Unless this is like the US thing were having taxes is destroying industry.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

Maybe you guys should import some weed from Uruguay and :chillout:.

England Sucks
Sep 19, 2014

by XyloJW
Oh shut the gently caress up so what a little loving governmental strike goes on and suddenly you're crying all over the place going paranoid, bitching non-stop, and are unable to cope.

poo poo is the status quo in any nation in south america and happens on a monthly basis. Colombia has a judicial strike currently going on meaning that no criminals can be placed in prison. You're country is one of the smoothest running and most well managed nations on the continent and Bachelet has done a fine job. Just because some people are bitching and putting up a fight over some wages means jack loving poo poo.

Oh and the whole "The foreigners are taking their money and running" bullshit stinks to high heaven. Where the gently caress would they take their money to even? There's nowhere else on earth that provides the advantages Chile does to the people investing there. She raised taxes, oh dear! Guess what. Every single other country in the hemisphere has higher taxes.

And Chile is a poor nation? Chile is among if the not the single richest nation in South America with massive amounts of fertile land and a seasonal climate that exists nowhere else in South America that permits it to export millions of tons of food to every single other country on earth. The people live quite well compared to the rest of the South America. Average food intake per day is over 3000 calories while in most of south america its just under 2000.

You sound loving privileged as gently caress TBQH and incapable of understanding latin culture or latin america. Move to Europe or America I'm sure you'll have fun standing 5 meters away from everyone else at the bus stop or driving your own gas guzzler alone to the loving suburbs.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

Berke Negri posted:

Is this the new Chile thread or can we talk about all issues re: Latin America? Because there seems to be a lot of dead people in Mexico and US levels of care appear to be around the level of however Turkey thinks of Kurds.

I'd like this to be a general Latin America thread, I've always wanted one :unsmith:

José Mujica called Mexico a failed state and had to apologize, even though he's totally right.

wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

Ardennes posted:

Modernizing labor laws is usually a code work for reduced worker rights and lower pay and benefits. It also unclear if Chile reduced worker rights to the bone what investment they would actually see beyond usual industries.

Chilean labor law is pretty dumb in a lot of ways. Below are just a few:

1) It is very expensive to lay an employee off. Employees on a fixed term contract have to be paid out to the end of their terms whether they're performing or not. Employees on an indefinite contract accrue a month of severence plus one month per year worked. If an employee challenges their lay off as "unjust" (which they will) and wins (which they will) they can get another 50% in penalties and might even get their job back so that the whole process starts again. This creates some really perverse incentives compared to, for instance, an American style unemployment insurance system or even a more generous european system. But it's rooted in the cultural animosity between workers and management and so is untouchable.

2) Medical leaves of absence may be taken at any time, with doctors' permission, for anything from injury to stress, for an indefinite sequence of 1 week periods. While on leave an employee can't be replaced and they're entitled to return to their old job at their old pay plus whatever seniority they accrued while on leave. In theory this would be sort of ok but FONASA (the state insurance plan) gives no shits about fraud and the system is rampantly abused at great cost to the state and employers. When an employee decides they're outie it's not uncommon for them to take a year's worth of paid leave to pad out their eventual mandatory severence payment.

3) Chileans have to work a fixed schedule set by contract, and deviation from that without a bunch of paperwork is a violation for the employer if the employee complains (whether it was to the employee's benefit or not). Flex time is legally dubious. Allowing people to work from home is legally dubious. Allowing alternate schedules is illegal. Basically, we can't be modern about how people work. It frustrates everyone and yet it's untouchable because ARE WORKER PROTECTIONS.

1 and 2 are expensive for employers and actually contribute to lower wages because those things get factored into offers. They protect lovely employees, somewhat, but everyone gets payed less as a result. Awesome. 3 is a pain in the rear end for everyone.

Ardennes posted:

They sound pretty similar to American style "vouchers" which is worse than even charter schools. "No one wants to go to public schools" but exactly how many of the poorest of the poor people afford these private schools because they aren't free. Basically, public schools have been so undercut that the middle class is now pushed to support private schools, but ultimately it is going to led to predictable social divisions because not everyone can afford private schools, and if something isn't done then the public system completely fails.

You have to understand the context. The U.S. has a pretty functional public school system in places that aren't poor. Chile does not have a functional public school system and hasn't since ever, really. The voucher schools are a lovely alternative to a functional public school system but they're still BETTER than Chile's public schools. The poorest of the poor (rural Chile) are hosed, yeah. It sucks to be poor. Bachelet's plan will not make it suck any less. No one is talking about quality at this point - it's literally an ideological putsch against the concept of profit.

Ardennes posted:

This sounds all like a lot of emotional charged wishful thinking, it is very clear Pinera was in big trouble.

With respect, bro, you weren't here and you haven't followed the issue from inside the country. The right was going to lose but could have lost to a center-left figure like Andres Velasco, who was Bachelet's finance minister during her first term. Bachelet had huge star appeal that was pretty much unparallelled in Chilean politics. Now she's polling down around 50% iirc.


Berke Negri posted:

Is this the new Chile thread or can we talk about all issues re: Latin America? Because there seems to be a lot of dead people in Mexico and US levels of care appear to be around the level of however Turkey thinks of Kurds.

I'm talking about Chile but talk about whatever you want re: LatAm. I think "lots of dead people in Mexico" is probably so common by this point it doesn't really register.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

So essentially you're saying workers are treated too well, and they should just shut up and take what they're given so that your Yanqui overlords will invest more?

wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

England Sucks posted:

You're country is one of the smoothest running and most well managed nations on the continent

Which is not saying much, but sure, ok.

On the rest I disagree, clearly.

Radbot
Aug 12, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 4 years!
Those worker protections sound fantastic.

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wateroverfire
Jul 3, 2010

Badger of Basra posted:

So essentially you're saying workers are treated too well, and they should just shut up and take what they're given so that your Yanqui overlords will invest more?

No, I'm saying that the way things are set up is counter productive as hell and contributes to low wages and low productivity. We should do things in a way that does that less is what I'm saying.

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