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Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Typo posted:

According to D&D the solution to economic and political problem in every country is to just go more leftwards

The less they know about the issue the more true this is

That is more or less a knee jerk reaction in the other direction.

I am less and less impressed by responses that don't have really concrete economic rationales and just go for ideological tone like it is a football game.

Chile has some serious issues that won't be fixed with lower taxes and labor reforms often happen at a cost to the population itself. You can point to fraud, but there is always the question of why are you getting rid of an entire policy to fight fraud in the first place.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Nov 27, 2014

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Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Badger of Basra posted:

Wow do we have two Pinochetistas in one thread?

This is seriously like the left-wing version of a tea party rally.

Everything left of Reagan/right of Allende is Communism/Fascism respectively.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

Typo posted:

This is seriously like the left-wing version of a tea party rally.

Everything left of Reagan/right of Allende is Communism/Fascism respectively.

That's not really an answer to the question, weon.

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Badger of Basra posted:

Wow do we have two Pinochetistas in one thread?

Keep going right. We're pining for the days of Spanish absolute monarchy and colonialism itt.

The economy sure was great back when when we didn't have to pay pensions or any of that poo poo because we were just working all the natives to death in the copper mines! :spain: :toot:

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

Typo posted:

This is seriously like the left-wing version of a tea party rally.

Everything left of Reagan/right of Allende is Communism/Fascism respectively.

You're in a thread where an open Pinochet fan is whining about worker protections in a country that had a violent US-backed conservative economic revolution.

And you're complaining about leftism in it.

R. Mute
Jul 27, 2011

Typo posted:

According to D&D the solution to economic and political problem in every country is to just go more leftwards

The less they know about the issue the more true this is
Well, Typo, I think that coups, military dictatorships, a sudden massive shift to the neoliberal-ist ideology, etc are actually probably going to have a negative effect on the quality and effectiveness of your administration so it seems kind of odd that the OP both complains about this and supports what happened.

Maybe Chile is some sort of weird exception though and coups are super-good there.

Berke Negri
Feb 15, 2012

Les Ricains tuent et moi je mue
Mao Mao
Les fous sont rois et moi je bois
Mao Mao
Les bombes tonnent et moi je sonne
Mao Mao
Les bebes fuient et moi je fuis
Mao Mao


Perhaps what forum user Typo is alluding to is that former caudillo Augusto Pinochet, much like truth, lies somewhere in the middle.

R. Mute posted:

Well, Typo, I think that coups, military dictatorships, a sudden massive shift to the neoliberal-ist ideology, etc are actually probably going to have a negative effect on the quality and effectiveness of your administration so it seems kind of odd that the OP both complains about this and supports what happened.

Maybe Chile is some sort of weird exception though and coups are super-good there.

Chile's coups were kind of decent, you know, relatively speaking. So there's that, I guess.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Typo posted:

This is seriously like the left-wing version of a tea party rally.

Everything left of Reagan/right of Allende is Communism/Fascism respectively.

"This thread is too left-wing" isn't an argument you know.

Ultimately though you can ultimately argue that any Latin America thread will be the reverse of an Eastern European one. In Latin America, the US was the dominant interventionist force that spread its ideology through authoritarian regimes.

R. Mute
Jul 27, 2011

Berke Negri posted:

Chile's coups were kind of decent, you know, relatively speaking. So there's that, I guess.
Like an Armenian genocide versus Holocaust kind of thing?

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Ardennes posted:

"This thread is too left-wing" isn't an argument you know.

Ultimately though you can ultimately argue that any Latin America thread will be the reverse of an Eastern European one. In Latin America, the US was the dominant interventionist force that spread its ideology through authoritarian regimes.

It is when the name "Pinochet" gets used as an excuse not to have to talk actual economic reforms and zombie Reagan Allende is the solution to all problems.

The 1973 coup and executing people in soccer stadium was pretty terrible, but people honestly seem to care more about reliving the rage than having an earnest discussion about modern day Chile.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

Typo posted:

It is when the name "Pinochet" gets used as an excuse not to have to talk actual economic reforms and zombie Reagan Allende is the solution to all problems.

The 1973 coup and executing people in soccer stadium was pretty terrible, but people honestly seem to care more about reliving the rage than having an earnest discussion about modern day Chile.

When people still trumpet him as the man who saved Chile, and their current president was tortured by his dictatorship, and her father was assassinated for opposing the coup, you can see why people might want to. You can't discuss modern day Chile without discussing Pinochet because his legacy is still tainting the country.

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP
The general idea of 1 & 2 seem reasonable enough, maybe adjust some specific payouts. 3 seems like you just need to allow overtime and the other stuff about working from home.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Badger of Basra posted:

When people still trumpet him as the man who saved Chile, and their current president was tortured by his dictatorship, and her father was assassinated for opposing the coup, you can see why people might want to. You can't discuss modern day Chile without discussing Pinochet because his legacy is still tainting the country.

But this discussion isn't even about the legacy of Pinochet, however terrible it was. There are plenty of threads in D&D where we talk about how terrible he was.

It seems like OP proposed some right wing policy and since it is Chile it automatically set off the rage factor, and everyone decided to just call the OP a Pinochist and call it a day. If you think the policies he's outlining are bad (and some of it seems to be) or unreasonable or you have a better solution, you should post it. But right wing+Chile=Pinochet is just lazy debating.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Typo posted:

It is when the name "Pinochet" gets used as an excuse not to have to talk actual economic reforms and zombie Reagan Allende is the solution to all problems.

The 1973 coup and executing people in soccer stadium was pretty terrible, but people honestly seem to care more about reliving the rage than having an earnest discussion about modern day Chile.

It most likely kicked off because the OP started the thread asking for the US military to kick out a center-left moderate because of educational reforms. He has walked back from it, but it is pretty directly comparable to how the Eastern Europe thread reacts to pro-Russian posters (though Putin is ironically right-wing), just the shoe is on the other foot.

Anyway, I have gone over his points and most of them see unsustainable beyond some pretty basic things like "workplace fraud isn't good." Spending money on educational is a super left-wing idea I know, but is going to be needed.

Ultimately, the present government in Chile is quite center-leftist, and the Communists are a very minor part of the coalition compared to Christian Democrats.

Typo posted:

It seems like OP proposed some right wing policy and since it is Chile it automatically set off the rage factor, and everyone decided to just call the OP a Pinochist and call it a day. If you think the policies he's outlining are bad (and some of it seems to be) or unreasonable or you have a better solution, you should post it. But right wing+Chile=Pinochet is just lazy debating.

I have been doing that, and by and large I think his argument is flawed on its basis or at least the problems he cites can be fixed relatively minorly. You don't have to get rid of sick leave because someone rampantly abuses it, and there may need to be more flexible contracts but having those protections for the existing system can be maintained.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Nov 27, 2014

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

computer parts posted:

The general idea of 1 & 2 seem reasonable enough, maybe adjust some specific payouts. 3 seems like you just need to allow overtime and the other stuff about working from home.

Is there any real disadvantage of a generous unemployment welfare system vs rigorous regulation of hiring/firing in the chilean context or in general?

VitalSigns
Sep 3, 2011

Complaining about Pinochet is lazy. Put some effort in and post something substantial: like ignoring all substance and complaining that an argument is too left-wing

R. Mute
Jul 27, 2011

Thanks for the meta-discussion, Typo.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Ardennes posted:

It most likely kicked off because the OP started the thread asking for the US military to kick out a center-left moderate because of educational reforms. He has walked back from it, but it is pretty directly comparable to how the Eastern Europe thread reacts to pro-Russian posters (though Putin is ironically right-wing), just the shoe is on the other foot.


Granted I'm not a big expert on D&D user political views but I thought the "US carrier group" thing was a joke, though I guess if he was serious yeah it's not exactly a good idea for obvious reasons.

quote:

Anyway, I have gone over his points and most of them see unsustainable beyond some pretty basic things like "workplace fraud isn't good." Spending money on educational is a super left-wing idea I know, but is going to be needed.

Ultimately, the present government in Chile is quite center-leftist, and the Communists are a very minor part of the coalition compared to Christian Democrats.

What's wrong with having a more flexible labor market and better unemployment benefit vs a more rigid one?

Zeitgueist
Aug 8, 2003

by Ralp

Typo posted:

But this discussion isn't even about the legacy of Pinochet, however terrible it was. There are plenty of threads in D&D where we talk about how terrible he was.

It seems like OP proposed some right wing policy and since it is Chile it automatically set off the rage factor, and everyone decided to just call the OP a Pinochist and call it a day. If you think the policies he's outlining are bad (and some of it seems to be) or unreasonable or you have a better solution, you should post it. But right wing+Chile=Pinochet is just lazy debating.

The OP is being called a Pinochist because we've argued with him before, and we know he is.

Several people in the thread have argued the policies he is complaining about aren't bad.

Complaining about the hivemind and then saying other people are being lazy in a debate is just hilarious.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Typo posted:

What's wrong with having a more flexible labor market and better unemployment benefit vs a more rigid one?

One issue is revenue, and Chile doesn't have corporate taxes in a classical sense which has where the government gets revenue. It does have a progressive income tax and profits from business are suppose to be included under it but the government still doesn't have enough money to work with it.

Also, losing your job by getting sick isn't going to be really replaced by unemployment benefits which likely aren't going to cover your full costs. Basically, the employer is going to gain an advantage over their employees because the unemployment system is likely never going to be a replacement for an actual job.

So if major reforms are instituted (like actually cutting those protections) it is almost certainly a net loss for workers, and to be honest, I don't think Chile's issue really are those protections in the first place.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Nov 27, 2014

rscott
Dec 10, 2009

Typo posted:

But this discussion isn't even about the legacy of Pinochet, however terrible it was. There are plenty of threads in D&D where we talk about how terrible he was.

It seems like OP proposed some right wing policy and since it is Chile it automatically set off the rage factor, and everyone decided to just call the OP a Pinochist and call it a day. If you think the policies he's outlining are bad (and some of it seems to be) or unreasonable or you have a better solution, you should post it. But right wing+Chile=Pinochet is just lazy debating.

when you have a neo liberal pining for a carrier group to park itself off the coast and it's chile we're talking about the association flows naturally, not to mention the poster in question has done the defending pinochet thing in the past. As far as the policies go what is there to really discuss? A business owner suggesting that the rights of labor should be trampled on? Surely you jest! Are we supposed to take a poster who doesn't believe in the marginal propensity to consume seriously?

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Ardennes posted:

One issue is revenue, and Chile doesn't have corporate taxes in a classical sense which has where the government gets revenue. It does have a progressive income tax and profits from business are suppose to be included under it but the government still doesn't have enough money to work with it.

Also, losing your job by getting sick isn't going to be really replaced by unemployment benefits which likely aren't going to cover your full costs. Basically, the employer is going to gain an advantage over their employees because the unemployment system is likely never going to be a replacement for an actual job.

So if major reforms are instituted (like actually cutting those protections) it is almost certainly a net loss for workers, and to be honest, I don't think Chile's issue really are those protections in the first place.

Since you do seem to know more about modern Chile than me, how does corporate taxes in Chile work?

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Typo posted:

Is there any real disadvantage of a generous unemployment welfare system vs rigorous regulation of hiring/firing in the chilean context or in general?

I guess to prevent hiring scabs? It makes punishment for strikes harder, for sure.

Badger of Basra
Jul 26, 2007

I guess if this is a general Latin America thread, a little post about Uruguay's elections can't hurt. Forums poster SickBoy did a good write up of the last one (and Uruguayan history) in LF, but I can't find it.

The current president is José Mujica, of the left-wing/center-left Frente Amplio (Broad Front). He's probably best known for legalizing pot, looking like your cool grandpa, and driving his old VW Beetle instead of the official state car. He's a former guerrilla, but (like Dilma in Brazil) has been more moderate in power.


He is unable to run again because of term limits (one term at a time, though he could theoretically run again in the election after this).

The first round of the election was held on October 26. Tabaré Vázquez, Mujica's immediate predecessor as President and also of the FA, won the first round. It was expected to be close, but he outperformed the polls at got 49.5% of the vote. Most polls now say he's going to beat his opponent, Luis Alberto Lacalle Pou of the center-right Partido Nacional (National Party, also called the Blancos or the Whites), by around 14 points in the second round on Sunday.


Tabaré Vázquez


Luis Alberto Lacalle Pou

rscott
Dec 10, 2009
The thumbnail of that second picture makes it look like he's missing an eye

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

Typo posted:

But this discussion isn't even about the legacy of Pinochet, however terrible it was. There are plenty of threads in D&D where we talk about how terrible he was.

It seems like OP proposed some right wing policy and since it is Chile it automatically set off the rage factor, and everyone decided to just call the OP a Pinochist and call it a day. If you think the policies he's outlining are bad (and some of it seems to be) or unreasonable or you have a better solution, you should post it. But right wing+Chile=Pinochet is just lazy debating.

To be fair, the are bringing up Pinochet because water has literally defended Pinochet in the past.

Though I guess it is more that he hated Allende and tolerated Pinochet than liked him.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Typo posted:

Since you do seem to know more about modern Chile than me, how does corporate taxes in Chile work?

I am not an Chilean tax accountant but I believe distributed profits are basically "passed through" to income tax where they are taxed at 20% (at the individual level) but they don't have a traditional tax on the corporations themselves. The proposal is to raise it to 27% and then introduce a more formal corporate tax on dividends.

It certainly will increase taxes on all domestics and foreign corporations in Chile, but the argument is over the benefits of education funding versus any lost in investment. My argument is that worrying about any changes in foreign investment in the short term should be trumped by the fact that Chile needs to diversify if it wants to position itself better in a future where copper make not be king.

I think Chile's real problem may be caught in a "middle income" trap where wages will still be way too high to attract manufacturing but its education and infrastructure won't really allow it to compete at the high end.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Nov 27, 2014

Stalins Moustache
Dec 31, 2012

~~**I'm Italian!**~~

Badger of Basra posted:


Luis Alberto Lacalle Pou

What the gently caress is it with south-american right wing politicans always looking like sleazy caricatures of the typical western rich man? :psyduck:

computer parts
Nov 18, 2010

PLEASE CLAP

Stalins Moustache posted:

What the gently caress is it with south-american right wing politicans always looking like sleazy caricatures of the typical western rich man? :psyduck:

The rich Spaniards didn't mix races much.

ronya
Nov 8, 2010

I'm the normal one.

You hate ridden fucks will regret your words when you eventually grow up.

Peace.
and sleazy caricatures are constructed along racist lines in Western media

Diversification will continue to be difficult for as long as copper is attractive to export. Chile should probably not use the general fund to store copper revenue.

Furthermore, taking the goal of diversification as given, when your country still has upwards of a million people to shift from agriculture to industry, it is not the time to let environmentalists and rural farmers start screaming that the present allocation of water rights and population distribution is sacrosanct.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

ronya posted:

and sleazy caricatures are constructed along racist lines in Western media

Diversification will continue to be difficult for as long as copper is attractive to export. Chile should probably not use the general fund to store copper revenue.

Furthermore, taking the goal of diversification as given, when your country still has upwards of a million people to shift from agriculture to industry, it is not the time to let environmentalists and rural farmers start screaming that the present allocation of water rights and population distribution is sacrosanct.

I always thought they were more stuck (dress and hairstyle wise) in the 1980s.

Granted, much of it may not be industry but services, and water-rights issue are a separate ball of wax if your saying what I think you're saying.

icantfindaname
Jul 1, 2008


So how many middle class Americans do we have now saying wateroverfire is a Nazi for criticizing labor laws and that they clearly know what's wrong with LAmerica better than people who live there? 4? 5?

Flectarn
May 29, 2013

icantfindaname posted:

So how many middle class Americans do we have now saying wateroverfire is a Nazi for criticizing labor laws and that they clearly know what's wrong with LAmerica better than people who live there? 4? 5?

drat! loving ownedddd!!

England Sucks
Sep 19, 2014

by XyloJW

tsa posted:

Yea, and there are some interesting issues in how public unions should be treated vs. private company unions. At least in the vast majority of countries nurses and doctors can't go on strike just because, and even strikes among transportation workers is limited. It seems perfectly reasonable to have restrictions on what public unions can do when they are performing tasks vital to the infrastructure of the state.


More worker rights = automatically better seems to be the axiom around here, but that really does seem ripe for abuse. I'm really not sure why I should cheer on rights that could very well hurt the majority of people for the benefit of people who abuse the system.

Like number 3 is just nonsense in the global economy, I have no idea why people are mindlessly nodding along to that one. It's completely antiquated, like it presumes everyone is still on a factory assembly line or something. 1 and 2 have generally good ideas that probably just need to be reworked a bit.

It probably has something to do with Chile being in a privileged position in South America of having a great amount of exportable goods and a very small population with comparably low unemployment, crime, and high education standards. Of course for a American it's probably a utter shithole with few redeeming qualities which needs to be more like America. But most South Americans wish to live in a country like Chile.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

icantfindaname posted:

So how many middle class Americans do we have now saying wateroverfire is a Nazi for criticizing labor laws and that they clearly know what's wrong with LAmerica better than people who live there? 4? 5?

It doesn't really work with Chile, took you until page 3 though.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Nov 27, 2014

England Sucks
Sep 19, 2014

by XyloJW
I'd also like to point out that such a large percentage of work in South America is informal and has zero government oversight that labor laws are about as effective here as drug laws.

Typo
Aug 19, 2009

Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

England Sucks posted:

It probably has something to do with Chile being in a privileged position in South America of having a great amount of exportable goods and a very small population with comparably low unemployment, crime, and high education standards. Of course for a American it's probably a utter shithole with few redeeming qualities which needs to be more like America. But most South Americans wish to live in a country like Chile.

The same is true of Argentina and natural gas, it's just that the government seems to be distinctively less successful there.

Ardennes
May 12, 2002

Typo posted:

The same is true of Argentina and natural gas, it's just that the government seems to be distinctively less successful there.

Argentina still has obviously other issues, for example vulture funds.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010

Typo posted:

The same is true of Argentina and natural gas, it's just that the government seems to be distinctively less successful there.

Literally every time I read more about Argentinean government my :ughh: gets longer and more intense.

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CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!

icantfindaname posted:

So how many middle class Americans do we have now saying wateroverfire is a Nazi for criticizing labor laws and that they clearly know what's wrong with LAmerica better than people who live there? 4? 5?

People are being snide but I will bite, Water isn't criticizing the labor laws from some special Latin American place, he is criticizing it from a distinctly right wing point of view, because he is well right wing. Sub your typical American and you would get roughly the same argument.

So nice try?

Also while being from a country can give you insight, it doesn't make you perfect.

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