Latin America: the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to burn

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Latin America: the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to burn

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i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Ras Het posted:

Interesting conversation to follow from Finland, a country whose relationship with Russia is really quite close to that of Mexico and the US

This would be a mischaracterization, unless you can explain a bit more.

Mexico and US are core allies -- even if they have rocky relationships between different administrations -- the economies are intertwined, there is significant bilateral cooperation, and Mexicans are one of the largest populations in the US.

On the other hand, Finland has far higher living standards than Russia?

# ¿ Jun 15, 2022 08:32

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 00:38

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

'Core allies' is perhaps overstating the point

the relationship between Mexico and the US is characterized by Mexico constantly having to look across the border at the entity that, historically, has come down to militarily dominate them any time they start feeling rowdy, and say 'you're not going to do that again this year, right?'

Mexico is a good friend to America in the same way Finland is a good friend to Russia: they are stuck living next door to the belligerent drunk, and so they do what they can to make sure when he's feeling punchy his ire doesn't get aimed at them. this includes a lot of 'whatever you say, sir's through forced smiles.

hilariously, both entertained a long shot partnership with the Germans to try to get the big guy off their backs, just one world war apart.

I would not call it Finlandization by a long shot, you're totally wrong there. And Finland is not a good friend to Russia: have you not watched the news recently where Finland and Sweden have applied to join NATO?

# ¿ Jun 16, 2022 01:58

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quarantinethepast posted:

In regards to Mexico, another interesting episode from El Hilo:

The episode talks about the rise of independent Facebook groups covering cartel violence in particular in Tijuana, but these groups aren't just concerned citizens. In fact, El Hilo alleges that these groups act as a tool of mass media to support the cartels, by justifying the acts of violence they commit and blaming the victims. Even worse, these groups single out journalists who put the cartels in a bad light, smear them, and put a target on their back to be killed.

What I want to argue here is that this shows how the cartels are effectively their own reactionary class, owning certain means of production, subverting local government and law enforcement, and utilizing a form of mass media to justify and protect their existence.

The government at the national level has some means to protect journalists, like providing them with escorts and a safety net, but it's really not enough. Essentially what we are seeing are certain parts of Mexico become personal fiefdoms of cartels outside the frameworks of the liberal capitalist system (which by no means qualifies as an improvement).

Yes, the drug cartels have significant control in various poorer Mexican states and operate more akin to warlords, as we witness the breakdown of the state and institutions. Journalists are a real target: https://cpj.org/americas/mexico/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_and_media_workers_killed_in_Mexico

I do not understand why you are trying to frame things in terms of means of production and liberal capitalism here. This is a federal government unable to control swathes of its own territory because of various complex reasons that have led to the cartels being able to gain power and remain in power.

EDIT: Also, while criticism against the Mexican federal government is justified for ignoring the violence and targeting of journalists, you do realize that the current President is an elected populist leftist?

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 02:28 on Jun 16, 2022

# ¿ Jun 16, 2022 02:21

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Ras Het posted:

Obviously Finland is a small prosperous country, while Mexico is a large very unequal one, but both have a 200+ year history trying to deal with a much more powerful, aggressive and capricious empire next door. And what I was more generally thinking was: for European leftists, opposition to American imperialism is a standard confession of faith, our sympathies have always been with Latin America, and Cuba, Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua etc etc are all familiar stories to us. So many of us have been quite astonished to see leftists world over equivocating, defending Russia and going full realpolitik after the war broke out. When the US invaded Iraq (to take the most obvious example), only spineless centrists said things like "we shouldn't necessarily provoke the US, there's no benefit in taking sides for us, both sides are bad". So in Finland it makes a lot of us wonder, if it was us instead of Ukraine, would these people be saying "look at how they treat the Roma, remember they allied with the Nazis, it's a racist country, and the welfare state was built on brutal extractivism" - all things that are true, but completely pointless compared to what the monstrous regime in Russia is doing

Thank you for providing your insight. I agree with everything you have said.

quarantinethepast posted:

Yes, although I would say AMLO is more like a social democrat. He's not going to be overthrowing the capitalist system anytime soon. Between the more aggressive stance his predecessors took and AMLO's more hands-off approach it doesn't seem like either is really solving the problem at the root. IMO (as someone who is not Mexican) I think the best approach would probably be a mixture of ramping up social programs to reintegrate impoverished areas back into the country as a whole and getting aggressive and going after corrupt officials and cartels with military force. These cartels are, essentially, fascists.

if AMLO is a social democrat, why is he violating basic democratic norms?

Look at how he's treated journalists: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mt6AwX9vIM

Or academics: https://www.ft.com/content/2e8fdbce-9fa3-4d1c-b9b3-f53dbf4dcb42

He is no defender of journalists -- and neither are the cartels.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Jun 16, 2022

# ¿ Jun 16, 2022 11:05

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Neurolimal posted:

If this, say, took place in a dimension where Socialist & Communist militias led the vanguard, in which the president compared his country to Palestine, in which West Ukraine took pride in its red history, then you'd see many more leftists change their tune from "the war needs to end as soon as possible to avoid starving out the Middle East and Africa" to "we must do everything we can to protect Ukraine from the Russian invaders".

Personally, I'd likely still side with wanting the war to end as soon as possible to mitigate damage to Africa and the Middle East, even if that meant Russia claimed more territory.

The fight against, at best, irredentism and at worst, genocide, should not be conditional on the political beliefs of the people being displaced and killed. Ukrainians should not have to be leftist to have support from leftists against war crimes. And leftists should not require it.

To do otherwise is to partake in the same realpolitik that you accuse imperialists of doing.

# ¿ Jun 16, 2022 13:37

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Elias_Maluco posted:

It made sense we were talking about the war in relation to latin america, but yeah, it already went ahead of that

https://twitter.com/AlanRMacLeod/status/1537812324651769856/photo/4

Linking Mint Press News? Seriously?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MintPress_News

Nucleic Acids posted:

The best possible advice: take the stance the Economist rejects.

Given how anti-Trump The Economist was, I'm not sure this is even a good generalization.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jun 19, 2022

# ¿ Jun 19, 2022 21:09

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Baronjutter posted:

The US doesn't like Maduro, which makes him socialist. The more the US doesn't like you, the more socialist you are.

This is why leftists hyperfocus on Latin America and Israel/Palestine. There seems to be a lack of care for other anti-authoritarian protests: how often is the conflict in Belarus and Myanmar discussed? Even the use of the term "color revolution" is seen as a pejorative in these circles as manufactured CIA plots.

Elias_Maluco posted:

We are in the west for sure. But no, we are not part of *The West*

We are part of the people they are building walls and fences to keep out

These are meaningless platitudes. Chile, as one example, is a Latin American country granted visa-free access under the US VWP. What walls?

# ¿ Jun 21, 2022 21:50

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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

in the case of Chile, rather than walls, helicopters were used to remove elements of the population deemed undesirable by the US' pet strongman, for which they were rewarded with slightly better access to America than some other countries.

as such, the price tag on that visa-free access is commonly considered a little high, particularly among groups who know they appear on the list of people to be summarily executed to make the Americans happy.

I'm not exactly sure what your reply is talking about, here, being purposely vague. Chile is one of South America's richest countries and given visa free access to the US.

What relevance is your predictable tautology that they are given visa free access because they are a US puppet and doing US pet things?

Marenghi posted:

GDP of Ireland may be high per person, but it's mostly on paper. As a country, it is a neo-colony of the United States. The only people who benefit from the GDP are the comprador politicians, the landlord class, and the associated service industries to US corporations.

I'm not going to say it's as bad as Venuezula, but the streets aren't paved with gold here. Homelessness is sky-rocketing, emigration for better conditions has been near constant, over a decade of neo-liberalism has left a country nobody wants to live in. Everyone I know has emigrated or is planning to, and I have known many people who are or have been homeless.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and...-2008-1.3610709

From my experience in Ireland, there is a significant amount of EU migration into Ireland, particularly from Eastern Europe.

VitalSigns posted:

People voting for a guy who is offering them material benefits in exchange sounds exactly like democracy to me.

GimmickMan posted:

I have to say trying to argue that buying votes is good, actually, is a really weird turn for people to take on their fnox contrarianism crusade.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 00:55 on Jun 23, 2022

# ¿ Jun 23, 2022 00:46

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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Seizing and maintaining political power through force to protect the working class from imperialist subversion is good.

Can you give any examples throughout history where the "working class" has been "protected" through a coup?

Marenghi posted:

2018 was actually a high point of immigration. It's been declining since. Even with the higher wages compared to Eastern Europe a lot aren't bothered any more due to the high cost of rent and living here.

Covid killed migration worldwide. This has nothing to do with Ireland being seen as an undesirable place to live.

fnox posted:

Because this is the exact poo poo you don't want the conservatives to do? It's bad when anyone does it.

Don't Google what Chavez was up to in 1992.

It's only bad when the people I disagree with do it; see:

Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:

i am referring to the fact that that bit of good treatment at US hands was purchased via a US-installed military dictator who spent several years violently purging Chile of all suspected of being insufficiently right wing. the signature terror move of his administration was murdering suspected left sympathizers- trade unionists, academics, homosexuals, you know, the usual roster of people deemed undesirable by the right- by throwing them out of helicopters. you may have heard some right wing shitheads referring to something about 'bring back helicopter rides?' they are referring to Chile, and an era they look back on as a golden age of American domination of those they consider less than human.

as such, particularly among members of the targeted groups, the price tag on that 'free access' is considered unacceptably high.

On February 28, 2014, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) announced that Chile became the latest country to be eligible to participate in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP).

So tell me where the quid pro quo with Chile began for VWP access, given Pinochet was kicked out in 1990. You're connecting dots that don't exist just for a favorable narrative about imperialism.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jun 25, 2022

# ¿ Jun 25, 2022 06:55

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WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Yes, Burkina Faso under Sankara. Mozambique under Samora Machel. Egypt under Nasser.

It's certainly not the most likely way to end up with a dictatorship of the proletariat, but if there is popular will for the overthrow of a government, and the military takes part, it's not a given that the bourgeoisie will continue to maintain class rule just because of the circumstances of the initial overthrow of the state.

It does seem lost on you that you are suggesting these examples of enlightened despots are a role model for Latin America, particularly since it already has a history littered with military governments and puppet/narco states.

You think it's totally fine to turn a blind eye to Castro and Chavez suppressing all civil society and ruling with an iron fist, but Pinochet is unacceptable when he does the same thing?

# ¿ Jun 26, 2022 11:31

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

It's all the CIA managed to pull off because the Venezuelan military, intelligence and people are firmly behind the government. You see the succesful results of hard work and can only imagine incompetence from the other side.

WhiskeyWhiskers posted:

Our 'fists' should form the very basis for the revolutionary armies and security forces we need to protect ourselves. Do you think you can loving stop an invasion, coup or colour revolution with witty placards?

You're accusing the west/CIA of fomenting a color revolution when these dictatorships hold sham elections and send the police to crush any dissent like this guy; what do you think happened in Belarus, in Kazakhstan, and in Myanmar? Or all the way to Tiananmen Square? What makes you think Venezuela is any different?

EDIT:

Let me be more explicit: in Belarus, the Russian military stepped in to suppress widespread dissent in "Europe's last dictatorship": https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/03/04/belarus-lukashenko-protests-election-russia-putin-brutal-crackdown-weapons-ammunition-bypol/

They did the same in Kazakhstan: https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-59894266

Guess who supported the military junta's coup in Myanmar after fair legitimate elections were held on their transition to democracy: https://www.cfr.org/blog/chinas-support-myanmar-further-shows-world-dividing-autocracy-versus-democracy

Yet here in Venezuela, you're seeing a victory of the "people" over Great Satan. I would suggest you talk to some real life Venezuelans refugees that are all across South America.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 26, 2022

# ¿ Jun 26, 2022 11:38

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fnox posted:

This is what upsets me about this thread, there�s never any sort of way to advance debate because it�s all stuck relitigating the loving Bay of Pigs. Developments from 2020 onwards like Maduro privatizing companies doesn�t matter because the aforementioned propaganda sources don�t talk about it. We have the same crowd regurgitating the same things into each other�s mouths, refusing to address anything and recurring to lovely snipes when confronted. The guy who posted about the riots in Ecuador went completely unnoticed, for example.

The obnoxious Marxist Leninist larping by people who are stuck in the past has made this thread suck and it�s never been addressed.

This is an forum-wide problem, because of a subforum that shall not be named has spill-over from their posters. The nihilism and historical materialism has been blatant with the growth of certain podcasts; activism is much easier when it's from the comforts of a Williamsburg apartment. Also posting is praxis.

I was in El Salvador earlier this year during Bitcoin Week and boy was that some entertainment.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Jun 26, 2022

# ¿ Jun 26, 2022 12:25

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

fnox posted:

Seriously can at least one of you look up why the Venezuelan economy �recovered�? You�re not even remotely going to question if there even is a socialist state if Maduro is pursuing neoliberal policies, such as dolarization and privatization to remain in power?

It's OK to be a petro-state burning the environment, so long as it's in the name of the revolution and not for neoliberalism, duh

GoutPatrol posted:

This I want details about.

Without giving too much detail to doxx myself; the main event was held at the Sheraton Presidente San Salvador Hotel, which is in the city's richest enclave. The attendees were a mix of a lot of foreigners, but the biggest contingency was probably Germans, not Americans. And it was pretty much 99% white male delegates. Lots of tech and BTC journalists as well. Everyone all seemed to also be very impressed by the Minister of Tourism, which was an attractive young woman hand picked by Bukele (Morena Valdez) who was been pushing the BTC strategy significantly.

There were also offsite events at "Bitcoin Beach" (Playa El Zonte). The moment you land at the airport there were a lot of ads and messaging relating to BTC so it's a government directive state-wide.

The problem is it became exceedingly obvious in El Salvador that even simple payments for things like coffee, food, etc. where just not very practical using BTC/blockchain or its finance derivatives. Much of El Salvador relies on cash, and for electronic payments, it would be credit card. So they had to find and convince skeptical merchants to onboard onto a BTC platform to sell things so the event could publish lists of BTC-friendly vendors. It was clear that it was more hassle than worth it for simple transactions.

In any case, those are innocent times because Bukele has lost millions in public treasury money with this stupid gimmick.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2022 14:12

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PT6A posted:

Castro, though he did some bad poo poo, was better; even Chavez was better. Morales is better. AMLO, frankly, has not sufficiently addressed domestic concerns, so I'm hard pressed to say he's doing an acceptable job, but he's not the worst. There is a path between being a US stooge and being a repressive, murderous fuckup.

That's the thing with populists: you get either enlightened despots or megalomaniacs. And if they manage to stick around long enough, they get to whitewash their record.

Chavez, Morales, all had issues with just wanting to stay in power and entrench their rule and change state institutions meant to act as a balance and counteract that.

Castro, having taken Cuba via revolution, did not need to. But Cuban history is filled with examples of offenses like their atrocious gay rights record, only to have it be pinkwashed in recent history with Mariela Castro, becoming a wedge issue to confuse the left.

EDIT: Let's not forget AMLO here: cancelling CDMX's new airport half way through construction, to build his own airport on the outskirts of town that not a single commercial airline seriously uses.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2022 01:02

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Spice World War II posted:

or one might come to think you might not be posting from a position of good faith

Considering he has actually lived in Venezuela, compared to most posters in this chat, and has been more than transparent about his politics, I'd be less concerned about readers with his "position of good faith" than many of the drive-by posters that this thread attracts who simply mouth off about anti-imperialism and quote Grayzone News.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2022 01:09

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Evo Morales interviewing on Argentinian TV and calling Cuba the best democracy is (rightfully) making the rounds today.

https://twitter.com/madorni/status/1547179439573782528

https://eldeber.com.bo/pais/evo-morales-en-cuba-esta-la-mejor-democracia-que-dictadura_286026

# ¿ Jul 14, 2022 05:02

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fnox posted:

Lastly, crime seems to have actually gone down quite a lot. I say that even though I got pickpocketed at the airport (someone nicked my headphones from my pocket). I�m pretty sure this isn�t some magical action by Maduro but rather a consequence of there being a whole lost generation that now lives elsewhere. Obviously, things in the slums are a lot more different, but at least the city doesn�t feel like a pressure pot anymore with the constant risk of being mugged everywhere you walk.

I've heard the same: high oil prices have somewhat stabilized things in Venezuela and it's no longer a de facto warzone from previous years where even airline crew were refusing to fly to Caracas.

Thanks for sharing your experience and I hope you stay safe.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2022 04:45

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

The "socialism" that is often transposed on states like Venezuela, Iran, and even North Korea is very much a fake narrative and part of the bizarre socialism<>anti-imperialism (anti-US) mantra dating from the USSR period.

For example (and apologies for linking fake Grayzone News): https://thegrayzone.com/2017/09/05/sony-obama-seth-rogen-cia-regime-change-north-korea/

Take the opposite side of America and legitimize it: in this case, North Korea is being bullied by the US by a Hollywood film. Just bizarre.

And here's Venezuela doing it:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Saab

Socialism with Venezuelan characteristics requires a lot of charter flights to Iran.

State airline Conviasa has previously been used for years to smuggle weapons from abroad under ghost flights that they list as commercial flights that are impossible to actually book as a passenger.

https://businessinsider.com/aeroterror-venezuela-iran-and-latin-america-2015-3/

# ¿ Aug 20, 2022 13:14

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fnox posted:

I�m gonna ask my Chilean friends for some sources, but from the outside it seems like it�s more a reaction to Boric than a reaction to the actual text of the plesbicite. I don�t think there was anything in there that was particularly egregious like trying to abolish term limits or something like that, it�s all pretty standard progressive platforms like indigenous rights, reproductive rights, gender equality and so on.

I wouldn't call the proposed constitution "standard progressive" and generally speaking, constitutions are quite limited in their scope.

They were ambitious here: there were clauses about animal rights, ecology and nature rights, and things found not in any other state constitution in the world.

Boric took a big risk and IMO it backfired, particularly since this was a mandatory vote and not simply his electoral base.

# ¿ Sep 5, 2022 18:39

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

https://twitter.com/netblocks/status/1575701908253470720

Looks like the Cuban government cut off the internet. Rumors of protests and disruption coming out.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2022 07:44

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Polidoro posted:

Latin America ('s thread) is poo poo because of the US (posters).

Not all US posters. Just the ones that link Jacobin and ones that try to turn every discussion here about America. Or that democracy in Latin America is not real because CIA. Except for when their preferred candidate wins.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2022 21:42

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fnox posted:

There's things to talk about.

There's things in Latin America to talk about, but unless it relates to "anti-imperialism" and the left, it loses the attention of many people who come in only to look at issues transposed onto the American culture wars.

For example, there was hyperfocused attention around the presidential elections of Chile and Colombia where left-wing candidates won for the first time in a while. After the election, there's very little follow up or attention given to these places again: many people tuned in simply not because they care about Chile or Colombia, they just wanted to rehash about socialism, imperialism, CIA, etc. We see the same/will see the same with the elections in Brazil.

It's incredibly toxic.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2022 23:14

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V. Illych L. posted:

i am quite confident that the gold would do more to benefit the venezuelan people if not stolen by a foreign actor, because the leader of venezuela needs some base level of legitimacy among his constituency, and that constituency cannot be limited entirely to the military/political capitalist elite to which the PSUV seems to have reverted in the face of crisis and extreme outside pressure.

Why do you assume leaders need legitimacy among their constituency? They just need control of the military: that's how autocratic regimes like Iran and North Korea operate.

quote:

applies to the pathos-filled poverty of some area or failure of individual project doesn't actually demonstrate anything other than "this place is poor and corrupt", which was never in question - 100% theft is an extraordinary claim and you really are going to have to justify it with something other than your contempt for people with whom you disagree. 100% theft means that *every* public works initiative exists for *nothing* except stealing money, and not just skimming stuff through bad building contracts and -practices, just outright embezzling all the funds. this is a tall order

i appreciate that you've gotten a fair amount of unreasonable pushback, but you do actually have to present some form of argument or there's really no point to any of this

I'm confused here�he's posted his first-hand accounts, and there's plenty of reporting on corruption within the Venezuelan regime. The only pushback I see that's unreasonable is from you, challenging that 100% embezzlement number. What level of embezzlement is acceptable? 50%?

V. Illych L. posted:

paying a bunch of people to do useless work has, on its surface, greater social utility than having the money seized by foreigners. that is what you need to disprove, and i deliberately constructed the premise in this way for reasons i have previously stated. what i mean is, as far as i can tell, pretty straightforward: it is better for a country to not have its money stolen by foreigners, even if that money would be very poorly spent. the reason i'm interested in making this statement and why i'm being so anal about this is what i tried to explain in the previous post. "close to zero" doesn't cut it - the criterion is deliberately structured as "actually zero".

This is a false dilemma presented as an argument: it's not a choice between Venezuelan misspend or the assets seized by England.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Nov 16, 2022

# ¿ Nov 16, 2022 00:04

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Marenghi posted:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/haiti/haiti-needs-help

US still trying to manufacture consent for sending troops into Haiti. The problem remains that the US wants the force lead by African, Caribbean and Latin American countries to avoid it appearing as white America being world police again.

Within the article they let on the actual reason for intervention. The US puppet is unpopular and a military intervention would go a way to propping up his regime.

The article concludes that intervention is the best humanitarian option. The article written by Deputy Program Director for Latin America and Caribbean at International Crisis Group. ICG has been previously described as "styles itself as independent and non-partisan, but has consistently championed NATO's wars to fulsome transatlantic praise".

Is that why Russia is stepping in?

https://tass.com/politics/1524055

"Meddling in the political processes in Haiti, bringing the country under the control of ambitions of known regional players, which consider the American continent as their interior court, is unacceptable," First Deputy Permanent Representative to the UN Dmitry Polyansky said.

And why China continues to push for more involvement in Haiti?

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/US-China-rivalry-hangs-over-Haiti-a-month-after-president-s-killing

How did Haiti manage to find Russia and China as states to back them up against the US?

# ¿ Dec 2, 2022 16:31

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cat botherer posted:

Sure every other foreign intervention in Haiti justified on humanitarian grounds has been has wound up being a horrible disaster in the long run that was really all about naked imperial oppression, but this time is different.

"Naked imperial oppression" from the richest country in the Americas against the poorest country? Heavy rhetoric here.

Nobody gains from Haiti collapsing, especially not the US wanting to deal with more migrants coming across the border while political capital for immigration reform is nonexistent.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2022 22:34

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Marenghi posted:

I've been following Haiti news through twitter long before the assassination.

Is there a reason why you're using Twitter as your preferred news source?

quote:

The consensus was that Mo�se was using gangs to suppress dissent armed with US weapons. But that was becoming too big a problem for the US so they had him killed and replaced with a new puppet, which they hoped would quell some of the unrest. The assassination was planned by men in Miami which tends to be where US coups in the Caribbean are launched from. Again it's conjecture but that's all we really have from Haiti, the gangs are supposed to be looking for the same arrangement they had with the assassinated president as an extra state police force.

If it's conjecture, then why are you treating it like truth? Do you have any evidence of other "US coups in the Caribbean" launched from Miami?

quote:

The new guy is regarded as a puppet and wouldn't survive without US support. Which is why they need the intervention to solidify his position.
https://twitter.com/ComradeKimDawn/status/1570395166636384256

Nowhere in The Nation article did it say that.

Whether or not he survives has nothing to do with US support or not. The US supported Guaido in Venezuela and where did that end up going?

The proposed solution by this author in The Nation:

quote:

During that time, the United States and Haiti�s �friends� in the international community have supported Henry�s continuation in office�in spite of the fact that Clesca�s Haitian Solution commission, which is associated with a broad coalition called the Montana Accord, has been offering a respectable civil-society and grassroots alternative to Henry the entire time.

As ever, the country that claims the mantle of democracy is terrified of anything that smells democratic, for example the Commission for a Haitian Solution�s Montana Accord, backed by scores of popular organizations, agricultural communes, labor unions, some segments of the private sector, various political factions, health workers, artists, grassroots organizations, shantytown associations, student groups, and human rights organizations�all working together for a Haitian solution to the downward spiraling situation. Apparently, the United States just can�t wrap its mind around something that includes so many people and groups and therefore might not be susceptible to influence and control. US officials have said that they support a Haitian solution to the crisis�but don�t seem to want to support the Haitian Solution to the Crisis. The State Department clearly thinks a �Haitian solution� looks more like Ariel Henry, a de facto official supported by Washington, untroubled by the ballot, hugely unpopular, useless, supine, and negligent, and ruling without anything that could qualify as a functioning legislature or judiciary.

Has anyone ever looked at the Montana Accord? https://www.haitiwatch.org/home/commissionforhaitiansolution

It's nice and feels good, but how is that going to stand up to armed gangs and a government with a military? Who's guaranteeing security?

Here is the current Congressional briefing on Haiti: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF12182

It notes: "The Biden Administration�s political approach to Haiti has evolved from supporting the Henry government to pushing Henry, the Montana Group, and other stakeholders to reach an inclusive political accord. In a July 6, 2022, Miami Herald editorial, Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs Brian Nichols said, �the time has come for ... steps that will allow Haiti to restore democratic order.�"

That doesn't read as hard fast support for the Henry government to me.

Here's the reality: Henry controls the government and armed forces. Moise's assassination had already created a power vacuum with gangs expanding and taking over large sections of Haiti's economic activity.

How is ousting Henry and putting in a provisional government by nonprofits and civil society going to help? Do you think Henry is just going to sit there and let this happen? No, it's going to devolve into civil war.

Which is why the current approach is to have peacekeepers/multinational forces to present a security alternative before any political reform is even possible. The US is not risking US lives on another country's internal affairs, which is why the task is being pushed to other countries to share that risk. The UN is deeply unpopular in Haiti for its past scandals so now the alternative is a multinational force. Canada is taking a leadership role partly because Haiti is a significant source of illegal immigrants over the US-Canada border over the years.

The Montana Accord requires security before there is any peaceful transfer of power and elections to be held.

Some, like the author of the Nation, read that as the US arming and putting support behind Henry. But what has Henry done at all to earn that support, and what evidence is there?

Framing the situation in Haiti as US imperialism vs Haiti civil society and right wing vs left wing along that tangent is incredibly reductionist and very unhelpful.

PS: Haiti recognizes Taiwan over the PRC and even China made overtures at the UN to push for a blockade on Haiti; they deny any motivation for political transition in Haiti to coincide with a switch of foreign relations

# ¿ Dec 5, 2022 23:36

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

i say swears online posted:

we've invaded countries because a banana company told us to

Marenghi posted:

The US invaded and occupied Haiti for 20 years because Citibank told them too.

Is the discourse in this thread ever going to move beyond CIA/Chiquita/Contras involvement decades ago? Or do some keep continuously bringing this history up like a Brooklyn podcast to shut down discussion of current events and developments?

You can relitigate slavery, French vs Spanish colonialism, that's not the purpose of this thread.

quote:

Okay you're just trolling now.

You literally linked a Twitter account with a hammer and sickle.

EDIT:

Owling Howl posted:

Should the US then aim for regime change instead? What would it entail for the US to pull support from the Haitian government and how would that force the current president out of office?

Exactly. Apparently it's not a regime change if it's a government they prefer.

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Dec 6, 2022

# ¿ Dec 5, 2022 23:54

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

For those who want to understand why the Montana Accord is not an immediate solution, I suggest reading the following: https://www.csis.org/analysis/avoiding-disaster%97-narrowing-path-forward-haiti

It's a good overview of the challenges and current status of dealing with the Henry government and touches also on Latin American affairs.

Koos Group posted:

Which countries are you referring to?

Edit: Nevermind, I looked it up and we did indeed invade Guatemala at the very least for that reason. It was United Fruit Company, which later merged with other companies to become Chiquita Banana.

Yes, I briefly mentioned it here:

i fly airplanes posted:

Is the discourse in this thread ever going to move beyond CIA/Chiquita/Contras involvement decades ago?

Marenghi posted:

And then they say forget the past, as though these things haven't been happening and aren't still happening. I mean it's barely a few years since the semi-successful coup in Bolivia kicked off by the US controlled OAS saying there was voted fraud based off the vibe of the vote.

No one said forget the past, but you're bringing up these things to kill discussion of anything relevant and useful with your obsession with American imperialism over Latin American politics. Particularly as you are making everything centered around America and denying agency to everything else.

What do you think a Haitian-led solution looks like? Why do you think the Biden Administration is only passively involved in Haiti and not having the US lead on peacekeeping?

Saying the US launched a coup in Bolivia through OAS while ignoring the clear context of Evo Morales seeking unprecedented terms and shutting down opposition and media�do you think the rest of Latin America wanted a repeat act of Maduro? Who do you think forms the OAS?

For example, Nicaragua, under Ortega's fourth sham elections, claims the OAS as part of American hegemony�why is it that only authoritarian regimes seem to dislike it?

Where is the outcry from newly socialist governments like in Chile and Colombia?

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Dec 6, 2022

# ¿ Dec 6, 2022 03:10

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Neurolimal posted:

How about Lava Jato, the Bolivian coup, the '04 Haiti coup, or everything about Colombia prior to this year?

Like, "that's old history" would be easier to accept if there existed a real break where the US was no longer heavily involved in manipulating states in South America & the Carribean.

Can you explain what the US involvement in Lava Jaro was? It's why Lula was jailed and involved the Paradise Papers and embezzling Petrobas funds, but I'm not making the connection to the US here.

For the 2004 Haiti coup, are you suggesting that the US funded the rebels which took over the country and started sieging PAP, or funding the head of state that got flown out on US military aircraft and they had previously supported?

Likewise, why do you make an arbitrary cut off about US involvement in Colombia "prior to this year"? Did US involvement stop only this year because Colombians elected a socialist government, and you define US foreign policy only by interfering against socialism?

These events are all quite unique and complex and you're brushing them all in the same stroke as part of some general US agenda.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2022 05:58

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Staluigi posted:

You could have a humanitarian mission from the UN, or even one that could actually work, even if that's just improvement relative to the present condition in Haiti.

Right now I'm very partial to the conclusions on the Montana Accord but not completely, because I think their blueprint for reformed governance presumes too much instantaneous legitimacy over a domestic condition of gangs being the dominant force in most of the country.

"but America is the biggest warlord of them all!"

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-63707429.amp

By the way, neighboring Dominican Republic started deporting enmasse people suspected to be Haitian (black, obviously) and the only people who spoke against it was the UN HCR and the US.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/11/24/dominican-deportations-to-haiti-fuel-growing-fears-frustration

Nucleic Acids posted:

The only intervention that might have actual humanitarian goals would something led by, like, Cuba.

Like when Cuba tried to invade the Dominican Republic?

i fly airplanes fucked around with this message at 01:44 on Dec 7, 2022

# ¿ Dec 7, 2022 01:40

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Eric Cantonese posted:

I think Cuba has come up in the discussions in this thread because they're one of the few nations in the region that is (from what I can tell) not totally crippled right now and not very beholden to US influence.

Cuba is under an embargo�one that the regime continuously lobbies against�how does that not make them beholden to US influence? It's not just carrots in foreign policy, it's also sticks.

Both countries are major sources of migrants: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/09/15/historic-numbers-cubans-haitians-travel-to-usa/10358418002/

# ¿ Dec 7, 2022 12:27

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Marenghi posted:

This is nonsense. North Korea are under sanctions, does that make them beholden to US influence?

In the case of North Korea, the sanctions are global and enforced throughout the world, save for some exceptions from regimes like China or old allies like Lao PDR. Quite different from Cuba which is unilaterally sanctioned from the US.

Other posters have already addressed the other issues with your response.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2022 23:57

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

The transport situation and pollution is awful in Lima. But it's one of Latin America's greatest cities for food: such an amazing culinary scene there.

# ¿ Dec 17, 2022 09:26

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

i say swears online posted:

lima's going to be like 99% fine, i would even think cuzco is okay for tourists

Saw this come up on the news: apparently trains have stopped running up to Machu Picchu and there are some stranded tourists

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/machu-picchu-tourists-stranded-amid-protests

# ¿ Dec 18, 2022 11:26

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

Your questioning is already uh, on a pretty slanted note.

But no, the US gains not much from invading the poorest country in North America.

The objective is to stop the situation from Haiti devolving into a mass migrant crisis, moreso than it already is.

Viewing Haiti as solely some prize to be exploited (or not) is deeply reductionist and simplistic.

This is akin to some people trying to paint Afghanistan as some trove of natural resources to explain the invasions.

# ¿ Dec 27, 2022 07:39

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

We don't know Bolsonaro's credentials to stay in the US but he potentially risks deportation, so he's saving face to cover his own rear end.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2023 09:58

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

i fly airplanes posted:

We don't know Bolsonaro's credentials to stay in the US but he potentially risks deportation, so he's saving face to cover his own rear end.

As I speculated previously..

https://twitter.com/pinstripebungle/status/1612475171348021249

# ¿ Jan 11, 2023 11:10

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

V. Illych L. posted:

what i'm saying is, if the US doesn't want a leader overthrown in a transparent military coup in their own backyard - and that's what was on the table as a supporting action to this clownish uprishing - that leader is not getting overthrown in a transparent military coup. letting the military hardliners take down lula for no apparent reason other than that they don't like him would be worse for the US than letting him do his thing, and the US really does have a voice in this kind of matter. the previous ouster of the PT was also basically a kind of US-backed coup, but a much more genteel one and almost certainly one which had US blessing.

basically, imagine that you get a military government proclaimed in brazilia on january 8th on what are transparently nonsensical grounds - if the US government declines to recognise such a government, it is in serious trouble, and for the US to recognise it would be a big problem, both in terms of international prestige and because the present US government was targetted by a ridiculously similar uprising

I'm not sure why you're speaking in hypotheticals here as the US congratulated Lula and recognized the legitimacy of the Brazilian elections without question?

# ¿ Jan 13, 2023 02:05

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-22/brazil-and-argentina-discuss-common-south-american-currency

LOL yeah that's not going to happen, and hopefully for Brazil's sake

# ¿ Jan 23, 2023 04:08

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 00:38

i fly airplanes: Sep 6, 2010; I STOLE A PIE FROM ESTELLE GETTY

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/mexican-govt-inks-deal-buy-mexicana-airline-brand-383-mln-union-says-2023-01-06/

AMLO has apparently decided to set more money on fire, after having wasted billions on commercially unviable Santa Lucia Airport (which no airline will fly to without massive subsidies), and halting construction mid way on the new Mexico City Airport from his predecessor.

# ¿ Jan 23, 2023 21:39

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Latin America: the fires immediately died down, because they needed socialism to burn

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