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Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Gough Suppressant posted:



I feel this is a good start to understanding Argentina.

I'm guessing this refers to the folk legend around here that the seventh male son of a family will turn into a werewolf ("lobezno" is used in this particular instance, even if the word "hombre lobo" already exists). Unless adopted by the president of turn, somehow. It's something that actually happens, they get a little certificate and everything.

TheImmigrant posted:

"Argentina: a country of Italians who speak Spanish and think themselves British."

It's probably the only country that's gone from First World (it sent material and financial aid to Europe after WWII) to arguably Third World.

This are both pretty accurate.

I can try to answer things about Argentina, but my point of view is rather biased and not completely informed (as any point of view might be). Current status: Inflation (I would estimate something like accumulated ten fold in ~8 years); hosed up foreign debt situtation (look up vulture funds); crazy import/export situation to try to balance the foreign currency reserves; imminent election at the end of 2015 with the current political dinasty of the Kirchners on its way out, and every candidate in sight being a crook or a shithead rightwinger/neoliberalist. Also add whatever happened to that prosecutor that people are discussing right now.


E:

Forgall posted:

Anybody from Uruguay here? It seems to be getting pretty good rep, is it justified or just good PR?

TheImmigrant posted:

I did a semester of school in Montevideo. It's the bright spot of South America - super progressive politics (legal marijuana, gay marriage), stable, affluent. Uruguay is also very friendly to foreign investment and foreign residents. I'm seriously toying with the idea of buying a place in Montevideo or Colonia. Population is like Argentina's, but WAY more laid back. Montevideo is like a smaller, less pretentious Buenos Aires.

I've visited Uruguay a fair number of times due to having family there. They are doing pretty well nowadays, but they were hosed during the 90's-early 2000's (like most of the region really). It's a pretty chill place, if you want to experience South America without going to the crazy giant cities or the dirt poor countryside, Uruguay is a good middle ground. It's seen as very "rural" compared to Argentina, laid back like TheImmigrant said would be an accurate description. Consider that the whole country has about the same population as the City of Buenos Aires for example.

Markovnikov fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Jan 19, 2015

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Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Pretty Boy Floyd posted:

I'm about to spend a few months in Argentina and Chile, and I was talking to someone I know in Buenos Aires and she said people are banging pots and pans (one hour ago). Sounds like there are some demonstrations tonight, too.

This is more... common than you would think. It started as a form of protest ("cacerolazo", cacerola = pot/pan) around 2001 when the economy collapsed. But nowadays it's been sort of ran into the ground.


E: VVV Also when the lights get cut off because the city's energy infrastructure is poo poo. I mean, I get it for the few neighborhoods that have no lights for weeks on end, but my neighbors did it after an afternoon once and we've always gotten our electricity back pretty soon.

Markovnikov fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jan 20, 2015

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
I don't think he was murdered really. He lived in one of the most secure ares in Buenos Aires (as in, any strange event would have been caught by a million security cameras), had police custody (which could be a good or bad thing here really), and from the data we've been getting so far it looks like a classic Sherlockian closed-room death. It does go to show that sometimes reality is stranger than fiction.

It will kick up a whole lot of sand, specially it being an election year.


My Imaginary GF posted:

Iranians would. Its certainly an interesting death.
I've always heard the rumour that Menem's (president during the 90's, hosed up the country a whole bunch) son, who died in a helicopter crash, was actually offed/made to crash by them or someone else in Menem's shady arms deals.
If any of you ever want to see what neoliberal politics are capable of, read about Menem.

Markovnikov fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jan 20, 2015

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

El Laucha posted:

Today they found a 3rd, somewhat hidden access to the apartment, where they found a fresh footprint and a fingerprint (from here).

I keep saying this is out of some loving spy thriller. Someone get on that book deal.

Qué país generoso.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Yes. Think of it as the Argentinian Charlie Hebdo for the closest analogue.

"Hope: It is trusted that when prosecutor Nissman's death is explained, it will explain the cover-up that, once explained, will explain the AMIA bombing"
Under that: "Second Edition: Unexpected Twist: The prosecutor might have drawn caricatures of the SIDE (the spy agency)"

Markovnikov fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 22, 2015

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Importing stuff has always been a crapshoot in Argentina. Even until the current attempt by the government to staunch foreign currency flight by stopping internet purchases, like what happened to Azran. Before that, you could import books more or less freely, but most everyone else was subject to import taxes (50% of the value of the object). Of course, that only applied if the customs people realized/were not looking for a bribe. Nowadays is even more complicated. Still, a friend imported a loving PS4 through Amazon by bundling it with a single book and declaring the whole thing to be books. Zero problems, got it in his home in less than two weeks.

~Banana Republic~

I've actually been looking at importing Boardgames since I always liked them and the offer from Gaming Stores here is poor and stupidly overinflated, but gave up. They are just too unwieldy to make it through customs. Really your main choice for importing that kind of thing is waiting for relatives/friends to travel abroad and burdening them with requests.

I think Brazil has their own Amazon website and infrastructure, so they have it better. Too bad that infrastructure doesn't expand to the rest of the continent...

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

Time to recover Uruguay! :hist101:

Gotta get a piece of that sweet sweet pot, abortions and beaches.


I dont know posted:

Shouldn't that be the Malvinas?

FTFY

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Polidoro posted:

You should move to a cool country like Uruguay where the government was forced by the US to allow people to make purchases for under $200 tax free*

Also if Argentina invaded Uruguay it would be a giant fist fight because none of the countries have any weapons.

*5 purchases per year per person

Well they also got some cool Guantanamo prisoners in return :v:

Reminder that we almost went to war with Chile for some border fisticuffs this side of the 1900's until some Pope chilled the situation.
And then they backstabbed us during the Malvinas' war.


papasyhotcakes posted:

This. One would think that having a land border with the USA would make importing stuff to México easier, but in practice is just better to wait for people who are going there to bring that sweet nerd poo poo down here.

It's hard being a nerd in Latin America :japan:


Is this really the only thread on Latin America on the forums? I remember looking for one in LAN or Goon Meets but not finding much. There is one in the Tourism subforum I think, but that's mostly yanks getting robbed and drinking bad water or somesuch.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

hecko posted:

There's one too in The Ray Parlour.

Fútbol :effort:


King Metal posted:

What kind of items? I haven't had any problems yet importing stuff from Chinese sites (just takes a while, and depending if customs is on their monthly strike), and they don't charge the vat. I've been afraid to try amazon, they charge tax, and it seems like it'd be more likely to get held up in customs.

Which items? What Chinese sites?
Yeah, packages from Amazon might get a little more looked at by our benevolent customs overlords than others.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Eh, depends on who you ask. The Kirchner's did some good things (pulled the country out of the ashes of the economic crisis) and some bad things (ton of shady poo poo). Still better than Menem. Still better than most of the possible candidates in the upcoming elections. Seriously, Macri is going to win and the roaring 90's will be back in full force.

Polidoro posted:

Every Argentinean president since Perón has been a sleazy, corrupt, authoritarian shitheel.

You joke, but half the country thinks this of every non-peronist president, while the other half thinks this about every peronist president. I find it disgusting that 40 years after his death, his handless corpse still warps the political landscape of the country.

E:

Azran posted:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1765084-jorge-capitanich-ahora-rompe-notas-de-clarin-en-vivo

Capitanich, Chief of the Cabinet of Ministers (also a huge corrupt inept), decided to tear apart a newspaper stating that in a public press conference. Some days ago, he also decided to showcase his acting talent

Clarin is such garbage that I don't blame him. It's quality has nosedived (if it ever had any, too young to remember) to near Cronica-like reporting.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Ardennes posted:

Not according to the polls even before the scandal, and I can't think of this helping FJ or Scioli at this point. It looks like it might be wraps for the left in Argentina and as another poster said, a return to the 1990s.

I wouldn't call the current government the left. Maybe the "not the right".


Azran posted:

First of all a disclaimer - I don't have sympathy for any side of the Argentinian political spectrum. That said, I don't think anyone should take Menem as the bar one has to clear to be a "good president" because holy poo poo that's a low bar. I do agree some good things happened during the Kirchner governments - I mean, I did vote for Cristina's re-election. (:shepicide:)

Well there are not many presidents I can compare to in recennt history. This side of the end of the military regime you've got Alfonsin, Menem, de la Rua (lol), and the however many presidents we had between de la Rua taking the last helicopter out of the Casa Rosada and the Kirchners. So a lot of very bad ones, and Alfonsin who I think is viewed in a rather positive light, rampant inflation during his period notwithstanding.

I do love how his son (grandson?) tries his hardest to look like him and pretend the UCR still has a chance at anything.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
No joke someone posted a young picture of her in the D&D pics thread and :drat:

The whole Nissman investigation has been a real shitshow so far though.

Also I'm really pissed that we are going to have to vote something like 6 times this year, some of them spurious extra elections (open primaries that no one asked for, and the separation of the city and national elections for political maneuvering). Keep wasting people's time and those taxpayer's bucks guys.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Every time I see anything about Carrio she just seems deranged. Is she peddling some coup fears now or something?

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

I don't think that sort of bait would work however. As trollish as it is (and it would be effective in that regard) I believe that at the decision-making level of the opposition parties, cooler heads would prevail. Carrio might make a huge fuss about it now (and would make a huge fuss about it when/if it happens), but she wouldn't actually go through with any sort of action that is unconstitutional or anti-democratic. I think that Macri, Sanz, etc. would all also refrain from such things. Everyone knows that the K wing of the party is done, and anyone who supports them by now will have to wait at least one or two electoral cycles before they can come back from being mayor of Resistencia. This move would not be done by a powerful Christina fresh from elections and with years to go in power, but by someone in a horribly deteriorating position who everyone knows will be out of office sooner rather than later. Any designation of laws or positions that are not done through the proper codified channels (i.e. not as law through Congress but through executive powers etc.) can be reversed just as easily as they are implemented. All the people that have been appointed through such methods during the K years will just be removed and replaced as they replaced the ones before them, and so on and so on. If Christina does do something completely ridiculous like re-staff the entire judicial branch through emergency commissions then its all going to be paralyzed by strikes and such action. Maybe I'm missing something but I just don't see what constructive moves are left from the position of the Presidency and its rapidly-shrinking base of support.

The rats are just leaving the boat because there is no possibility of continuity. Political allegiances and parties are a loving joke. "Peronism" or "Kirchnerism" mean nothing more than "Menemism" ever did. Everyone would suck Macri's dick if it'd get them a position.


Polidoro posted:

If the boots come back you will be relieved of your voting obligations!


Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Reminds me of a story I read on the NYT about some Brazilian senators from the past, who were of course very corrupt. One senator tried to kill another one with a gun during a senate session, but ended up killing a third unrelated one. He did not go to jail, since the judge decreed that his intention had been to kill the first senator and not the one he actually murdered, so it was all OK.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Sephyr posted:

That trigger-happy senator was the grandfather of one of our presidents. Political dynaties are very much a thing here.

Still about Aecio, his popularity is a mix of factors. He's young, and relatively unknown by most people outside of his home state, which means that they tend to go with their positive first impression. He's also not from the crusty, older generation of PSDB politicians that A) borked the country something fierce in the 90s, and B) failed again and again to sway the elections back to their side.

He's not particularly charismatic, but also not a stick in the mud lie, say, SP governor Geraldo Alckmin. And his last name, Neves, is due to him being the grandson of legendary brazilian politician Tancredo Neves, a bigshot across several governments from the1940s and onward, the guy who negotiated the end of the dictatorship in the 1980s with himself as the transition president, then promptly keeled over dead and left the country with his insanely corrupt vice-president Jose Sarney in one of the biggest anticlimaxes in the history of ever.

So he's fresh, has the right political pedigree, the media backing and the cash to be the great white hope.

Yeah, the article also mentioned his descendency I think. Is there more on that story? Or some names attached. I just find it extremely hilarious, coming from a country that has had (and still has) its fair deal of corruption.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

the hundred dollar bill of my heart


I think those may be going out of print? There's a series of $100 with Evita on them, and if I remember correctly they are going to replace them.

When I went to the numismatic museum (I know, I know) in Buenos Aires, they told the story of all the currencies we had had. One in particular was pretty funny: they started doing the bills with the faces of presidents on them, in chronological order. But then, good ole Inflation started, and they had to keep printing bigger bills with newer presidents. Until they actually ran out of presidents/caught up with the present.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

Yes they're to be replaced by the Evita ones. The same with Sarmiento being replaced by the Malvinas one. The entire point of them being issued is that they can re-issue the entire serial number set, and therefore they can keep printing bills and increasing circulation in order to meet inflation, without having to print higher than 100 peso nomination.

What you are referring to here is the Austral, the highest denomination was 500,000 with Manuel Quintana (formally withdrawn in 1993), and its not so much that they caught up to the present, but rather that they ran out of presidents that were politically acceptable/non-controversial to put on the money. Thankfully Carlitos came along.

Hrm, haven't seen the Malvinas' bills at all. Maybe because nowadays you don't much get to handle lower denomination Bills. Sarmiento was also kind of a dick too so good for him being shoved aside?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't the australes, but some previous currency, we've had a bunch. I do remember seeing a series of old gardening magazines my mother has, that were priced in australes, and as the numbers went by you could see the price going up up up.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

God gave every Argentine three virtues, from which he could choose any two: intelligence, honesty, and peronism

Holy molly, I had never heard that one, golden.

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

"Uno por uno" was Cavallo trying to have it both ways. If you want parity with the dollar, then you need to run an extremely tight fiscal regime, which Argentina obviously did not do. The other possibility is to just go all out and dollarize the economy completely. Ecuador has done this fairly well, although you essentially cede monetary policy unilaterally.

The thing to remember about the uno a uno was that the middle class loving loved it. They were finally able to buy all the fancy poo poo they wanted, and take their trips to Europe and Miami like the good nouveau riche they aspired to be. The counterbalance to that was the lower classes suffering, due to the loss of competitiveness of the local industry and agriculture that employed them. I was a child of the 90's, so I still behave somewhat spoiled when nowadays with our hosed exchange rate I can't get all the shiny toys I would like to (as mentioned before in the thread, importing things is also a nightmare due to stricter customs controls too).

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

It's also definitely Australes since that was the only currency to display so many heads of state on the bills. All the other ones are much more conservative and stick to Belgrano, San Martin, and one or two other ones, to minimize any potential political fallout. The Austral is also the one to have suffered the most inflationary period.

Oh yeah seeing those bills you are right, it was probably the Australes.



DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:

Interesting perspectives. My wife is from Argentina, and fled with her parents after her father (a journalist) got out of jail. She has family members who hid dissidents Anne Frank-style from El Proceso. One odd consequence of this is that despite being a member of the far, hard left for her entire life she loves Margaret Thatcher and was genuinely stricken at her death.

Margaret Thactcher was a bad person, and the Malvinas war was a bad war (if the concept of a good war even exists). You don't have to root for one or the other.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Reminds me of a macro I saw on FB the other day.
"Daddy, what is 'History'? "
"I don't know son, I'm a right winger/conservative" (de derecha, in the original)

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

rockopete posted:

Heh, even the short NPR story on Brazil's protests this morning pointed out how white the crowds were. They interviewed a mom holding a 4 month old who repeatedly declared that the military needed to step in. "So you want the military to take over?" "Well, if that's what it takes to get rid of this president, yes." Don't think most US listeners were expecting that one. They even noted that the protesters were singing songs originally used to protest against military rule :psyduck:

Unfortunately the piece didn't do any analysis at all of the inequality situation. I get that breaking it all down like that would be a tall order for Morning Edition, but that tax burden chart alone would make any American's jaw drop. Even our right wingers who complain that the poor "don't pay taxes" insist at most on a flat tax (which would effectively tax the poor more, and ignores payroll taxes, I realize, but they try to present it as fair).

Anyone in Latin America who calls for a military takeover should have their genitals connected to a car battery until they understand/remember what the latest coups in the region were like. Or maybe I'm misremembering and the last one in Brazil wasn't so bad?

Has there ever been a "righteous coup" in the history of humanity? A coup that deposes a genuinely corrupt leader, without bloody purges or civil wars, and that doesn't overstay its welcome? I'll even be generous and give them a couple of freebie kills on coup day.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Badger of Basra posted:

From an outsider's perspective, whatever's going on now will probably change after the next president is inaugurated. Macri and Scioli are more market oriented than Cristina and things will probably open up, especially if Macri wins. I'm not sure if there will be a crisis, but if it does it will probably happen relatively soon.

I'm pretty sure it'll take at least a minor crisis to get out of the rut we are in. And lol if you think Macri will make things better, at best we would get another 90's.

Deep 6 posted:

I've also been entertaining the notion of moving to Uruguay instead. I've visited there a bunch of times and pretty much everybody I've met there/talked to about it has had a lot of great things to say. On paper it seems like a pretty stable and well-rounded place to live, but there must be more to it than that that I'm not aware of. Like a page or two back when someone mentioned how Uruguay genocided its native population. Are there any big negatives about Uruguay that you would have someone like me know before deciding to move there? Are there any good reasons not to move there?

Genociding aboriginals is like a rite of passage for any American nation so I don't really know why people are so shocked by it when even the U S of A did it.

RE: Uruguay, yeah, their main problem is that poo poo is very expensive there. Things were like twice the price they were here in Bs As last time I visited. I have family in Uruguay, and when they come here they are always buying books and clothes and bathroom supplies (parfum, shampoo, etc) and taking it back. Otherwise, they are doing well nowadays, but LA countries are always caught up in some boom-bust cycle. They are far ruraler/chiller than Argentina, and you wont get the cosmopolitan-esque quality of Bs As even in Montevideo.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
That happens everywhere. Argentinians are all the time comparing themselves with Europe (we are all just temporarily embarrassed Europeans, you see), and making GBS threads on "the browns" around them. Maybe those movements that try to talk about a LA unity aren't all that mistaken.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Yggdrassil posted:

Exactly. He has been interviewing politicians during these last years. He sucks at it, but he does get to interview some interesting people, like Martin Lousteau.

Yeah wasn't he more of a gossip jounralist than anything else?


Badger of Basra posted:

Speaking of Martin Lousteau, can someone explain to me what's going on with ECO/UNEN/FAP/CC? It seems like every month Carrió is doing something crazy.

That's pretty much her whole gimmick really.

E:

Yggdrassil posted:

UNEN still exists, Binner and Solanas are still working together, and for them to work with Macri would be political suicide. Macri is pretty much a populist-conservative, a 21st century Carlos Menem. Binner, and even more Solanas, are completely opposed to that political current.

This reminds me, RIP the UCR (Union Civica Radical). The originally were the first proper political party, opposing the corrupt elites that conducted fraudulent elections. They did so both through intransigence (refusing to participate in the elections) and violence. They were the first party to have a turn at governing after the last military regime, and Alfonsín did more or less well. Now they are allied with PRO/Macri. How the mighty have fallen...

Markovnikov fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Apr 27, 2015

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Nonsense posted:

What are the odds of toppling the Argentinian dictator and electing a competent human being?

I don't think there is a candidate that is less garbage than the current president. So, zero.

On the next city elections in july (or June, can't remember) we'll apparently change to electronic voting. That is going to be such a clusterfuck.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
What people who hate on the Kirchners need to understand is that they did some good things. The country post 2001 was in shamblers, and things got much better. Nowadays, not so much, be it because the new model was unsustainable, or because Cristina doesn't have the abilities Néstor had, or whatever. There were also a bunch of shady deals along the way, of course. But in this country you are either for someone, or completely against them, there is no middle ground. So now that the government is doing poorly, all the rats are abandoning the ship and hating on the K's.

I'm (studying to be) a scientist, and I can tell you that things are much better in that field nowadays for example. In the 90's-200X period, there were almost no PhD scholarships available, and the few brave enough to study sciences would flee the country on graduation, or try and find a job in the moribund national industry. We also have a professional scientists thing going on around here (I think France has a similar system) were you actually end up employed by the government to do research and such, and don't depend entirely on your University and tenure like in the US. That system was also all kinds of hosed up in that period, and has gotten way better nowadays. I am convinced that the whole things is going to collapse in the next few years, be it because of an economical collapse once Cristina is no longer in power to hold the Jenga tower together, or because Macri gets the presidency and we get a Menem-2-Electric-Bogaloo situation. But it was very good while it lasted.

The main problem nowadays is what someone justly called the "cult of the dollar". With 30% annual inflation, the peso is wothless, so people try to save in dollars. To staunch the bleeding of dollars, a bunch of restrictions on imports and currency exchange were imposed, which of course don't sit well with the middle class (the upper classes are too rich to care, the lower ones too poor). There is currently a restriction on changing pesos into dollars, but that restriction also established a price that is not in accordance to what it should be (so we are back into some sort of 90's convertibility), so many exporting industries have lost competitiveness. What's the point in exporting, if the dollars they get can only be changed into a meager amount of pesos because the official exchange rate is lower than it should be? You could raise the exchange rate, but then the middle classes would cry bloody tears and inflation would shoot up again, since we still rely on a lot of imports. The situation is not easy, and whoever the next government is is going to have a general clusterfuck in its hands.

TL;DR: The Kirchner's did do some good things, but now that things are getting worse the rats are leaving the ship and it's hating time. Also Cristina does seem to have a very bad image on the outside, what with someone here calling her a dictator.

Also, when has Macri ever called himself anything close to a Peronist?

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
The main problem with the currency is really inflation. Without inflation, the peso is as stable as any other currency. I really don't know what is to blame for inflation. Currency printing by the government to pay for poo poo? Speculation? Imports? If you could find a way to control that, you could slowly get out of the dollar restrictions and regain some semblance of normality. This country is no stranger to hiperinflation really.

Alternative comedy solution: Abandon the national currency and go full on dollar, like that Central American country did. And I think an African country did too.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

wateroverfire posted:

Cutting back spending is necessary but not sufficient on its own, no. It would have to be one of many steps toward convincing both foreign and domestic investors that the country is not reeling drunkenly toward another crisis and debt default, and that Argentina is a place they can make money. I was in Buneos Aires last year and while I love the city lots, and in many places things are clean and have a fresh coat of paint, anything that required the least amount of actual money to get done seemed to have been deferred. I don't think the city has had a new metro car or a track upgrade since the system was installed. That's not "a middle income trap" unless that means "hilarious mismanagement and squandering decades of accumulated social capital".

There have been a couple of subway stations opened in the last decade. Mostly the H line that connects the other lines, and some stations that extend pre existing lines (like new stations for the B line). There have also been many reworkings of bus traffic, with some avenues reserved for it and the (in?)famous "metrobus", another fast lane for buses. A couple of tunnels under train tracks got built, for faster crossings. And many of the downtown streets were turned into foot-traffic only. Also also, the bike lanes, if you believe those make any quantitative difference. Still, much more is needed, the city dies from 8-10 and 5-7 due to rush hour.

You'd think that would all be praises to the Macri administration, but there have been many more shady developments. Much less investments in education and social policies, and accusations of diverting city funds to self serving propaganda advertisements (it's very obvious how the colour design for the city government took up the colors of PRO, and just how much more propaganda there is, even if it's only for reminding you when to take out your trash). But now you can go borrow bikes from government stands and bike around useless lanes that take up precious car space I guess, so the middle class is happy as pie.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
From my point of view, Peron and his brethren were an answer to the rising socialism/communism that happened in LA (and the rest of the world) in the first half of the 20th Century. As much as people hate him, many of the social achievements we take for granted were originally started during one of Peron's mandates: work regulations, aguinaldo, vacations, divorce law, further separation of State and Church (took some burning tho'), women suffrage, etc. All that along some of the better economic times in the country. Did he do it to appease the unwashed worker masses and not out of a sincere belief? Sure, but maybe the ends justify the means. He wasn't the president we deserved but the one we needed, or some other bullshit.

As I've said before, in Argentina (or maybe the world at large), there is a very strong us vs them mentality. You are either for Peron, and thus a dirty peronist who wants to nationalize everything and give free money to those smelly poors; or against him, and thus a dirty gorila that only wants cheap dollars to go vacation in Miami and send your spoiled kids to private schools. There really is no middle ground in peoples' minds. In my opinion, Peron did some good things and bad things. I don't like his handless zombie corpse still rotting our politics and stalking in the background, but neither do I want to damnatio memoriae his legacy.

E: Quoting this again because it applies and it's still too accurate

Ghost of Mussolini posted:

God gave every Argentine three virtues, from which he could choose any two: intelligence, honesty, and peronism

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Elias_Maluco posted:

And still I hear the "panelaços" (how could we say that in english?) everytime Dilma goes in TV and everywhere I hear people talking about how PT are all thieves and etc. The impeachment movement really lost steam, and nobody serious really believe it can happen anymore, but PETROBRAS scandal is still everyone's mind, and its been a lot more than a few weeks already. And nobody's forgot mensalão either.

Also, there is a very probable recession coming (maybe already starting) that ought to hit the lower classes harder, as always, and it will be blamed on Dilma and PT.

At the same time, I still see no possible opposition candidate with enough nationwide popularity to face Lula, so who knows.

Is that your equivalent of cacerolazos? I doubt there is a direct translation, enjoy our little socio-linguistic oddity.


TheLovablePlutonis posted:

Speaking of recession, where can I see the inflation numbers because holy poo poo the prices have been skyrocketing lately.

Continent's hosed. Was good while it lasted.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
I hope all football executives everywhere get sent to jail and the barrabravas are enclosed in their stadium of choice to rot away.

Seriously I loving hate football and what it does to peoples' minds and all the shady businesses around it that people ignore because their preferred eleven random dudes are kicking a ball. This FIFA thing is the best thing to happen since last year when Argentina lost the final of the world cup and people started rioting in downtown Buenos Aires. Honorable mention to River's players getting pepper sprayed by Boca fans not a month ago midways through a match, and Boca only getting a slap on the wrist for it. So much schadenfreude, so little time.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Isn't there ballotage? We have ballotage for everything and not this?Also from what I saw two candidates were extremely close (less than 1%) while the other was farther away, but not by that much.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Happy Noodle Boy posted:

This is actually terrible news.

Football schadenfreude best schadenfreude.

Actually it's the political kind that is the best, but that one only comes every so often. Like today! PS: gently caress Buenos Aires.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
A couple of months (weeks?) ago a mining company in Argentina released a bunch of cyanide contaminated water. Nobody (that matters) cares, I mean, Volkswagen sold contaminating and fraudulent cars to people who actually matter and they are going to get just another slap on the wrist.

At least cyanide is easier to clean up than heavy metals :/.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
:rip: Argentina

That's usually what happens from one government to the next really. I'd be surprised if you managed to NOT find dirt on someone after four years in power. I thought she was a candidate for the PARLASUR? The Mercosur parliament or some other bullshit. She's had plenty of health problems lately so who knows if she (or the country) can survive another four years.

E: At least the schadenfreude from both sides right now is glorious

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

ArfJason posted:

and apparently almost the entire staff of La Nacion protested against that article that tried to redeem the 70s military coup

For those not in the know, the editorial(?) of La Nacion posted an article basically saying that the Montoneros (leftist guerrillas during the 70's that existed before and during the military dictatorship and did the usual guerrilla fighting and bombing) were exactly the same as ISIS and their European attacks. This is one of the main newspapers in the country, FYI. I would expect that from Cronica, were at least it would make me laugh.



Polidoro posted:

Nah, when the economy blows up in Macri's face they will take the Plaza de Mayo and someone will die and Macri will leave Casa Rosada in a chopper and Cristina's retarded son will be president.

This but unironically and hopefully we will get someone decent out of the new round of economical Russian roulette. (no it needn't be a peronist)

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

ArfJason posted:

encuentro is gonna get ravaged like a nubile young woman on a viking raid and that makes me upset

Yeah Encuentro is legit good. Specially since the other documentary channels (Discovery and Co., Nat Geo, History Channel) have gone to poo poo many years ago.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010

Azran posted:

unbiased media

lol, pretty sure this hasn't existed for the past like 15 years.






Maybe Cronica.

Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
Yeah, didn't you also have a meltdown during the 90's/early 00's? I'd hardly think the last years have been that bad. My Uruguayan cousins seem to be doing well enough.

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Markovnikov
Nov 6, 2010
This does make me wonder, what can be done to stop corruption? Because I think it is not endemic only in LA or under developed nation, it's just rampant there, but it it present everywhere. Maybe it is just a part of the bureaucracy associated with democracy, that we will have to live with forever?

I foresee a lot of retroactive purges with the new government in Argentina. Corruption scandals will start popping up everywhere.

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