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So, yesterday I started reading Greg Lukianoff's recent book Unlearning Liberty: Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate . It's fairly well written so far though but Greg is president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education so he makes no question of his bias for absolute free speech. I rolled my eyes when he uniroincally used the phrase "Political Correctness gone amok" but some of the incidents he brings up were rather iffy ( http://www.thefire.org/cases/indian...reading-a-book/ http://www.thefire.org/20-percent-of-students-feel-having-unpopular-views-on-campus-is-unsafe/ http://www.thefire.org/cases/university-of-delaware-students-required-to-undergo-ideological-reeducation/ http://www.thefire.org/cases/valdosta-state-university-student-expelled-for-peacefully-protesting-parking-garages/ ) Now, I'm still fairly early in the book but I have two questions: 1. Is this guy and FIRE being truthful or leaving out critical information on the cases it mentions? 2. Has any poster here encountered restrictions of speech on campus or is Lukianoff cherry picking incidents? Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 23:08
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| # ? May 2, 2024 09:07 |
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Phone-posting, but it is 100% guaranteed that what anyone who unironically says "political correctness run amok" means by free speech being under attack is "my trash Republican comments were met with anything other than fawning approval".
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Nov 27, 2014 23:11
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Is this like the big boy version of people frothing about the kid with the gun-shaped pop tart? Because the same arguments apply. It's not an issue.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:14
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I'm fine with clubs inviting whomever they want on campus, however I also feel that the campus should in no way be required to police who comes to the event the speaker is speaking at, and the speaker is barred from preventing dissenting voices from asking questions. Yeah I don't think that's what the right would actually want.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:31
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conservatives allegedly emphasize personal responsibility but get pissy when challenged for their views, news at eleven.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:35
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AmiYumi posted:Phone-posting, but it is 100% guaranteed that what anyone who unironically says "political correctness run amok" means by free speech being under attack is "my trash Republican comments were met with anything other than fawning approval". If emptyquoting were allowed here I would do so. Instead, I will add that you could pretty much read that this was going to be the issue from the thread title. That's not to say that freedom of speech isn't a problem in some places but rear end in a top hat conservatives who head organizations with "clever" acronyms for names are pretty much the only ones who complain about it.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:35
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R. Mute posted:Is this like the big boy version of people frothing about the kid with the gun-shaped pop tart? Because the same arguments apply. It's not an issue. i did some light googling and the stuff that is referenced in those links seems to have happened, why is it not an issue?
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Nov 27, 2014 23:37
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AmiYumi posted:Phone-posting, but it is 100% guaranteed that what anyone who unironically says "political correctness run amok" means by free speech being under attack is "my trash Republican comments were met with anything other than fawning approval". You obviously weren't on campus in the early 90s, when 'speech codes' were in vogue. Even today, you're crazy if you think that there's a right-wing bias on the university campus.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:42
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TheImmigrant posted:You obviously weren't on campus in the early 90s, when 'speech codes' were in vogue. Even today, you're crazy if you think that there's a right-wing bias on the university campus. Right wing bias is a thing in University campus. Because the US is a thoroughly right wing country. That doesn't mean they agree on everything. Though he is right, generally when people do the free speech thing it is generally "why won't they just agree with me?"
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Nov 27, 2014 23:49
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i actually joined a conservative group that is dedicated to fighting back against the liberal dominance of discourse on campus (because they have really good food). it is literally just a bunch of white people hand wringing about how no one agrees with their lovely ideas. if there was actual systemic oppression of conservative ideology, then good, gently caress these people ive seen actual people in their twenties wearing BOWTIES.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:51
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fanged wang posted:i did some light googling and the stuff that is referenced in those links seems to have happened, why is it not an issue?
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Nov 27, 2014 23:52
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Jagchosis posted:i actually joined a conservative group that is dedicated to fighting back against the liberal dominance of discourse on campus (because they have really good food). it is literally just a bunch of white people hand wringing about how no one agrees with their lovely ideas. if there was actual systemic oppression of conservative ideology, then good, gently caress these people Young Americans for Liberty? I knew one guy who joined that, of course he was a Paultard. Nice guy but when he handed me a pamphlet about how FDR caused the Great Depression is when I tuned him out.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:53
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*reads about a guy whose livelihood is threatened because he read a book about the history of the school he works for* sounds like a rethuglican shitlord to me, hope he dies.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:54
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CharlestheHammer posted:Right wing bias is a thing in University campus. Universities are solidly left-wing zones.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:07
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There is absolutely no way that's the whole story
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Nov 28, 2014 00:08
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Actually, free speech is constantly under attack at universities all over the US. FIRE spends most of it's time dealing with such things, in fact.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:13
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Nckdictator posted:Young Americans for Liberty? I knew one guy who joined that, of course he was a Paultard. Nice guy but when he handed me a pamphlet about how FDR caused the Great Depression is when I tuned him out. I heard YAL was started around the same time Heritage and the National Review came into existence, and yeah they're basically another College Republicans group. I remember sophomore year after Obama won, they kept putting up fliers around campus saying "Uncle Sam wants YOU to end the nanny state"
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Nov 28, 2014 00:13
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i know if i hear about a thing that doesn't immediately flatter my biases i dismiss it completely and regurgitate canned talking points about a nebulous other to reassure myself
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Nov 28, 2014 00:15
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I like their header graphic. "Thanks to FIRE, I don't have to feel sad when truculent women, minorities and SJWs try to tell me how racist I am. Focus on me; the world is about me."
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Nov 28, 2014 00:19
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Jagchosis posted:ive seen actual people in their twenties wearing BOWTIES. http://www.theonion.com/video/gop-maintains-solid-hold-on-youth-that-already-loo,36778/
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Nov 28, 2014 00:21
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:I heard YAL was started around the same time Heritage and the National Review came into existence, and yeah they're basically another College Republicans group. That's their free speech.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:22
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TheImmigrant posted:Universities are solidly left-wing zones. More left wing then more rural parts yeah, but that doesn't really mean anything by itself. It is more a mixture of both. TheImmigrant posted:That's their free speech. He never said anything different?
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Nov 28, 2014 00:23
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What do you think, OP?
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Nov 28, 2014 00:28
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It's incredibly plain to the outside world. That YOU. America, are, as a country are collectively sliding into a volcanic pit of sin and abandonment.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:28
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CharlestheHammer posted:More left wing then more rural parts yeah, but that doesn't really mean anything by itself. It is more a mixture of both. It tilts heavily to the left, certainly more so than any other milieu in the US. quote:He never said anything different? It's an odd argument, mocking the speech of right-wingers on campus on a thread about censorship on campus. Right-wingers are heavily outnumbered on most university campuses, and subject to strong social ostracism. It's not per se censorship, but there's little direct honest engagement of their ideas and more dismissal by argumentum ad populum. TheImmigrant fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 00:29
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TheImmigrant posted:It tilts heavily to the left, certainly more so than any other milieu in the US. Comparatively yeah, but on pure numbers not really. TheImmigrant posted:It's an odd argument, mocking the speech of right-wingers on campus on a thread about censorship on campus. Right-wingers are heavily outnumbered on most university campuses, and subject to strong social ostracism. It's not per se censorship, but there's direct honest engagement of their ideas and more dismissal by argumentum ad populum.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:32
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nah that doesn't really happen. Strange that you say that on this thread, where the sneering has already begun. Universities are very tolerant places when it comes to superficial things like skin color or piercings or sexual orientation, so long as everyone has similar ideas.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:35
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Strong social ostracism? Get over yourselves. Or you know, participate in social activities with people who aren't conservatives. Oh that's right you can't because you fear and despise them. Who is promoting the ostracism?
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Nov 28, 2014 00:37
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sounds like conservatives just need to toughen up and live in the real world like the rest of us grownass adults
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Nov 28, 2014 00:38
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in my opinion, they are less than human. i'm insanely progressive.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:39
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Do you motherfuckers not understand that college is where you go to get your ideas challenged?
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Nov 28, 2014 00:39
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TheImmigrant posted:Strange that you say that on this thread, where the sneering has already begun. This forum is not representative of anything really. Though literally nothing you say is true so I think you might be trolling, right wingers do not have to deal with any real mocking at campuses. No doubt people do mock them, but it isn't that prevalent. Hell they engage in the same behavior just with the switch of who is being mocked.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:39
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Lukianoff is a public interest lawyer. He presents his public cause as especially important and urgent, because it is his. There are situations arising on college campuses where the administration or the faculty impairs freedom of speech, by direct prohibition or by abuse of authority. FIRE offers legal resources to people in such situations. It's what they do all day. But I don't see evidence that anyone similarly spends all day creating all of these situations in a coordinated way. Lukianoff notes that FIRE offered assistance to Ward Churchill when he was under a very coordinated attack, which Churchill did not accept. Lukianoff's take how that case developed later on is a frustratingly liberal one, either ignorant or indifferent to the way that the misconduct investigation against Churchill was politically constructed.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:40
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SedanChair posted:Strong social ostracism? Get over yourselves. Or you know, participate in social activities with people who aren't conservatives. Oh that's right you can't because you fear and despise them. Who is promoting the ostracism? I'm not a conservative, although I do have conservatives in my social circles. Do you have any that you'd call friends? The social ostracism goes both ways, but since there are no conservatives on this thread (and very few on D&D in general), there's no point in debating them.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:40
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SedanChair posted:Do you motherfuckers not understand that college is where you go to get your ideas challenged? When was the last time you had your left-wing ideas challenged at college? Have you ever considered attending an Objectivist lecture? Why not? I went to one once, just to see what it was about. I listened, thought about it, and was resoundingly unconvinced; but I was more secure in my rejection of Randianism after leaving than I had been when I walked in.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:42
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CharlestheHammer posted:Comparatively yeah, but on pure numbers not really. If you're talking about with regards to the whole world, then maybe? But within the U.S. itself, college campuses slide very heavily left.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:42
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i love how instead of addressing any of the specific cases mentioned in the op people are just beating up some imaginary conservative they thought up who is a real jerk, it takes a strong mind to outwit a strawman imo
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Nov 28, 2014 00:44
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4th Asclepiadean posted:If you're talking about with regards to the whole world, then maybe? Nah I am talking about the US. I can't speak about the rest of the world, I don't know much about their cultural quirks in this case. fanged wang posted:i love how instead of addressing any of the specific cases mentioned in the op people are just beating up some imaginary conservative they thought up who is a real jerk, it takes a strong mind to outwit a strawman imo It was addressed, in certain isolated cases it can happen, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of any coordinated purposeful attempt at censorship.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:44
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fanged wang posted:in my opinion, they are less than human. i'm insanely progressive. this but un
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Nov 28, 2014 00:45
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| # ? May 2, 2024 09:07 |
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Universities, with the possible exception of right leaning ones like Bob Dole and religious colleges, don't pressure people into actively supporting political causes, right or left. You can be completely apolitical if you want and will run into no trouble. It is true that right wing ideology is usually not welcome around universities, but you don't actually have a right to have your ideology be welcome anywhere, only that the government can't restrict your ability to speak So yes, it does boil down to 'other people should be required to humor my terrible ideas'
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Nov 28, 2014 00:46
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