|
Nckdictator posted:I know this wasn't directed at me but If I could share a quote from Lukianoff's book that started this whole thread. This would probably be viewed as an attack on their freedom of speech as well.
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 22:59
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 14:07 |
|
|
I don't see how getting expelled from a voluntary organization like a university for verbally abusing fellow students is "coercion" or "enforced silence". You can go be a bigot somewhere else where you're not bothering people who are coming to learn without being called niggers, dykes, and spics. It's not like UCLA is throwing you into the back of a van and carting you off to Gitmo for wrongthink.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:00
|
|
|
LaughMyselfTo posted:Relative to D&D in general, I probably qualify as an extreme homophobe, but I cannot picture what's going through the mind of someone who would do this. I believe it to be implication by their peers that violence of this sort toward the 'wrong' sort of people is acceptable which leads them to think it a valid outlet for other frustrations in their lives. That, or they are so short on empathy that they don't even consider the impact their actions are having and think it's simply 'funny'. Either way it's loathsome. Perhaps more the culture than the individual. Poizen Jam posted:OK, So Snark, I take it you agree with speech codes and limiting speech as it pertains to bigoted beliefs. But seemingly you have a problem with dismissing such folks outright? And no problem with the bigoted shitheel professor attacking that grad student for something she didn't even do? What hateful slurs did the bigoted shitheel professor attack that poor innocent grad student with again? And to again amend, dismissing is more or less fine. Though you're not going to be able to argue with them doing that, which I would feel is rather important in a public forum at the very least and probably good practice even when not.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:01
|
|
|
VitalSigns posted:Ha, why are conservatives so chickenshit when it comes to their ideas? For people who believe they have ideas on loan from God, they sure are pansies who spend their time hiding behind elaborate smokescreens. The people I disagree with all believe people who are not them are horrible subhumans who don't deserve full and equal rights. The possibility that they might be in favor of human rights for all is... It's really just absurd. That would mean I am wrong, and as we have addressed, I am of flawless thought. Now let me tell you what these horrible people are saying about rights. These aren't the words they're saying of course, but they are what they mean. I know this because the voice told me and this could in no way indicate my own deeply buried resentments. The Snark fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Dec 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:06
|
|
|
Can everyone (well mostly Snark) stop putting words into people's mouths or assume intent and actually get down to what rules they think are ok for a university to have. Snark, in terms of actual clear rules the university can implement what would you support in terms of creating a non-hostile environment for students, or is this even a worthy goal? Can you explain this without the use of "dismissed" or "subhuman" ?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:25
|
|
|
The Snark posted:The people I disagree with all believe people who are not them are horrible subhumans who don't deserve full and equal rights. The possibility that they might be in favor of human rights for all is... It's really just absurd. That would mean I am wrong, and as we have addressed, I am of flawless thought. So are you from a parallel universe where conservatives support equal rights or something? Like, it is their specific, announced, advocated, proudly displayed position that the laws on the books should discriminate against gay people. No one is suggesting conservatives should get disciplined by universities for supporting tax cuts or charter schools or an alliance with Taiwan or whatever. It's only when it comes to poo poo that fellow students who are trying to get an education absolutely should not have to deal with, like a bunch of bullshit about how they're not full people and are valid targets for discrimination to be ground under the boot. But you don't have to take my word for it, let me quote from your link to be sure I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth The First Motherfucking Page of Some NeoNazi Whiner's Blog You Linked posted:Of course, a “campus wide climate study” is going to be a survey to see whether students harbor any politically incorrect attitudes about any politically correct group. Gay and lesbian students will be asked to report instances where anybody let on that they think that homosexuality is not a normal condition, or that homosexual acts are sinful or immoral. The Southern Baptist Convention or the KKK will be perfectly welcoming to shitheels who want to go back to Jim Crow, we don't need them making GBS threads up the classroom with that kind of long-debunked crap. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Dec 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:26
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Can everyone (well mostly Snark) stop putting words into people's mouths or assume intent and actually get down to what rules they think are ok for a university to have. I'm sorry, posting peer, but I believe you meant to ask Vitalsigns that. For what it's worth though I would certainly agree that Straw Men are at best ineffective argument tools. If it bothers you, please direct your complaints to those who seem to be completely incapable of speaking in anything else. God knows I'VE tried.
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:34
|
|
|
katlington posted:This would probably be viewed as an attack on their freedom of speech as well. Based on the blog that Snark is using as "evidence" of liberal censorship of free speech, you would be correct
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:36
|
|
posted:
You can't call me a shitbag for saying gays are subhuman scum for whom a Final Solution is too long overdue! What about my right to be universally praised for my poo poo opinions and my other first amendment right to never be criticized?
Nckdictator posted:I know this wasn't directed at me but If I could share a quote from Lukianoff's book that started this whole thread. It's more respectable than thinking a classroom argument is going to stop racism or sexism or homophobia, but it's also rather ridiculous for someone concerned with freedom of speech to say that it's OK to implicitly say that certain views should be shut up, and the only problem is when they make explicit what is already implicit.
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:36
|
|
|
If I call someone a friend of the family at work, I'm definitely getting fired that loving day, but at university my classmates just have to deal with it, didn't they come here to get their dignity as humans challenged by fresh new ideas about the Negro?
|
|
#
?
Dec 3, 2014 23:41
|
|
|
The Snark posted:I'm sorry, posting peer, but I believe you meant to ask Vitalsigns that. For what it's worth though I would certainly agree that Straw Men are at best ineffective argument tools. If it bothers you, please direct your complaints to those who seem to be completely incapable of speaking in anything else. God knows I'VE tried. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 00:02
|
|
|
joepinetree posted:I don't know which country you live in, but the notion that postmodernism is mainstream in either sociology or political science in the United States is absolutely false. Just like the notion that "public policy, electoral analysis..." are being "sidelined for critical publications that create a dialogue, but don't get anything done" is also absolutely false in the American academic context. Funny that you cite Brian Leiter. There's probably no one more reviled by practicing attorneys than Brian Leiter. If he were burning to death, I would cross the street to piss on him, so that he would die more slowly. I'm not an angry person, but I hate Brian Leiter with the fire of ten million suns. TheImmigrant fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Dec 4, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 00:10
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Funny that you cite Brian Leiter. There's probably no one more reviled by practicing attorneys than Brian Leiter. If he were burning to death, I would cross the street to piss on him, so that he would die more slowly. I'm not an angry person, but I hate Brian Leiter with the fire of ten million suns. Cool. Doesn't change the basic fact that the whole "postmodernists are taking over the academy" drama is bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 02:09
|
|
|
TheImmigrant posted:Funny that you cite Brian Leiter. There's probably no one more reviled by practicing attorneys than Brian Leiter. If he were burning to death, I would cross the street to piss on him, so that he would die more slowly. I'm not an angry person, but I hate Brian Leiter with the fire of ten million suns. Why? I haven't heard an opinion of Leiter or really any other academic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 02:14
|
|
|
The funny thing is that the klan did have a rally at my university in the last decade or so and its not like the usual suspects haven't stopped bitching that the place is overrun by PC police
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 03:26
|
|
|
If you mock and shout obscenities to try to drown out a person guilty of politically incorrect wrongthink, you will experience no disciplinary action. If you do the same thing to feminists, you will be disciplined and forced to sit through a bunch of sensitivity training.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:21
|
|
|
wow really sympathetic example free speech is criminal assault perpetrated by rape supporters. okay good thanks for proving to me your view is stupid and bad Homura and Sickle fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Dec 4, 2014 |
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
on the left posted:If you mock and shout obscenities to try to drown out a person guilty of politically incorrect wrongthink, you will experience no disciplinary action. If you do the same thing to feminists, you will be disciplined and forced to sit through a bunch of sensitivity training. quote:On Friday, a group of fraternity members at San Diego State University reportedly interrupted a "Take Back the Night" march — an event designed to bring awareness about sexual assault — by screaming obscenities, throwing eggs and waving dildos at marchers.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:23
|
|
|
Jagchosis posted:wow really sympathetic example Oh no, the evil men used really bad words like gently caress directed at the demure women. Surely public universities should punish this terrible oppressive speech.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
I showed up HR training today, waved a dildo around at women, and called them whores and I got fired. When can I get a talk radio show, my company is censoring my right to express myself.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:25
|
|
|
katlington posted:PC gone mad. It is PC gone mad, iit's nothing but a political disagreement. Identity politics turns it into a direct attack on feminists, but that's not really the fault of the fraternity. Remember earlier in the thread when people were talking about the right to free speech isn't a right to be free from people disagreeing with you? VitalSigns posted:I showed up HR training today, waved a dildo around at women, and called them whores and I got fired. It's not the job of the university to pick a political side and then punish people on the wrong side.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:27
|
|
|
hah yeah threatening rape victims is how we settle our differences here in the political arena much to be gained
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:28
|
|
|
on the left posted:It is PC gone mad, iit's nothing but a political disagreement. Identity politics turns it into a direct attack on feminists, but that's not really the fault of the fraternity. On Friday, a group of fraternity members at San Diego State University reportedly interrupted a "Take Back the Night" march — an event designed to bring awareness about sexual assault — by screaming obscenities, throwing eggs and waving dildos at marchers. The next night, a woman reported she was sexually assaulted at a party near the school's campus; she's the seventh such person to come forward this semester. A few hours after that, a 19-year-old woman alleged that six men attempted to force her into their car. In response to the deplorable claims, all social events at fraternities have been suspended indefinitely, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune, which was also the first outlet to report on the weekend's incidents. The decision came from leaders of the school's Greek community after they met with school administrators and the campus Sexual Assault Task Force. "It was time to really address these issues," said J. Cole, president of the Associated Students, in what is perhaps the understatement of the century. Members of fraternities and sororities on campus will now undergo sexual assault prevention training. "Sexual violence is a problem in fraternities and the Greek system," Tommy Reid, president of the Inter-Fraternity Council, told the Union-Tribune. "We don't want to hide that. ... It's upsetting to admit."
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:28
|
|
|
one side says sexual violence is bad and one side says they're dirty whores and throws objects at them maybe... maybe the truth is in the middle
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:30
|
|
|
Jagchosis posted:hah yeah threatening rape victims is how we settle our differences here in the political arena It might be stupid, but it's not against the law and not really even offensive speech. There was no mention of gendered slurs or other hatespeech, it was just the fraternity using their right to free speech to drown out and counterprotest another group using their right to free speech.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:31
|
|
|
on the left posted:It's not the job of the university to pick a political side and then punish people on the wrong side. But, much like my company, it is the job of the university to be able to attract employees and customers, something that tolerating harassment of rape victims would seem to undermine. Unless you think that universities alone of all businesses are free from the necessity of needing a good reputation to sell their product.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:32
|
|
|
on the left posted:If you mock and shout obscenities to try to drown out a person guilty of politically incorrect wrongthink, you will experience no disciplinary action. If you do the same thing to feminists, you will be disciplined and forced to sit through a bunch of sensitivity training. quote:On Friday, a group of fraternity members at San Diego State University reportedly interrupted a "Take Back the Night" march — an event designed to bring awareness about sexual assault — by screaming obscenities, throwing eggs and waving dildos at marchers. I don't think throwing things at people is protected speech.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:32
|
|
|
It's almost like they haven't read the article at all.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:32
|
|
|
on the left posted:It might be stupid, but it's not against the law and not really even offensive speech. There was no mention of gendered slurs or other hatespeech, it was just the fraternity using their right to free speech to drown out and counterprotest another group using their right to free speech. They can exercise their right to free speech at the SBC or the KKK, just like any other business would tell a customer or employee to do if they showed up and started harassing rape victims on the premises. But I guess your average fashionable college rightist doesn't understand things like PR, profitability, and business sense when it comes to pushing ideology
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:33
|
|
|
Jagchosis posted:one side says sexual violence is bad and one side says they're dirty whores and throws objects at them maybe... maybe the truth is in the middle To quote you from earlier in the thread, maybe they shouldn't "get pissy when challenged for their views" VitalSigns posted:But, much like my company, it is the job of the university to be able to attract employees and customers, something that tolerating harassment of rape victims would seem to undermine. Haha yea, identity politics and _______ studies programs is really what draws alumni recruiting. Good one.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:34
|
|
|
assault is actually not lawful
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:35
|
|
|
Jagchosis posted:assault is actually not lawful Call the police then
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:36
|
|
|
on the left posted:To quote you from earlier in the thread, maybe they shouldn't "get pissy when challenged for their views" Why do you think universities are doing it? Some grand Feminists conspiracy?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:36
|
|
|
on the left posted:Haha yea, identity politics and _______ studies programs is really what draws alumni recruiting. Good one. I mean, not having to worry that your daughter will be assaulted if she attends a school may have an effect on alumni donations and recruitment. But once again fashionable college rightists don't really have much of a head for financials do they
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:36
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Why do you think universities are doing it? According to the article they linked, they're doing it because the leaders of the frats think its a good idea. quote:The decision came from leaders of the school's Greek community after they met with school administrators and the campus Sexual Assault Task Force. "It was time to really address these issues," said J. Cole, president of the Associated Students, in what is perhaps the understatement of the century. Even the people on the left is defending(from horrid feminists) think on the left is wrong.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
There have been big public blowups about sexual assaults at the universities I attended for undergrad and graduate school and based on the extensive emails the administrations have sent to the alumni distribution lists, they're definitely concerned about how this stuff is affecting the donor pool.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
katlington posted:According to the article they linked, they're doing it because the leaders of the frats think its a good idea. Frats should really go on the offensive against people who want to shut them down and not give an inch to those people. VitalSigns posted:I mean, not having to worry that your daughter will be assaulted if she attends a school may have an effect on alumni donations and recruitment. It's like the police don't even exist as an option to prosecute crimes.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:44
|
|
|
Baronjutter posted:Can everyone (well mostly Snark) stop putting words into people's mouths or assume intent and actually get down to what rules they think are ok for a university to have. This is probably the most important question for public university speech codes. How can you write a code that is broad enough to catch all harmful speech without being so broad that its application looks more like targeted punishment of disfavored speech rather than uniform punishment of harmful speech? That is, even if you want a speech code, how do you phrase it? How do you enforce it?
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:46
|
|
|
on the left posted:Frats should really go on the offensive against people who want to shut them down and not give an inch to those people. Child, when you get older you'll see that adults have to worry about things like "reputations", and "money" to pay "expenses" and they can't afford to sacrifice their financial responsibilities just to pander to your desire for a free venue to harass and assault rape victims. Maybe instead of whining and demanding a handout, you should bootstrap your own university where you can allow all the rape support speech you want 
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:50
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 2, 2024 14:07 |
|
|
on the left posted:
The police are a separate from the University, so they wouldn't really help the U in this case, the case being the U looking proactive.
|
|
#
?
Dec 4, 2014 04:53
|
|