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i feel that if you just surround yourself with people that agree with you then your mind because mushy and you develop an overinflated sense of your own intelligence and a hilarious lack of self awareness
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Nov 28, 2014 00:46
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nah I am talking about the US. I've been to university in France and Uruguay. In both countries, universities skew to the left of general society as well. Lots of flirtation with fashionable leftist stances, e.g. Trotskyism, syndicalism, even the occasional Maoist.
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Nov 28, 2014 00:46
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fanged wang posted:i feel that if you just surround yourself with people that agree with you then your mind because mushy and you develop an overinflated sense of your own intelligence and a hilarious lack of self awareness ironic cat emoji
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Nov 28, 2014 00:47
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CharlestheHammer posted:Nah I am talking about the US. by what criteria are these cases certain and isolated
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Nov 28, 2014 00:49
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A real conservative should be utterly fearless in expressing his or her ideas:
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Nov 28, 2014 00:51
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i agree that it's not the same as systemic racism or w/e it's just the ripest richest poo poo i've seen all thanksgiving to see d&ders regurge up the same "conservatives always cry about free speech when no one is oppressing them" when it has gently caress all to do with the actual topic of the thread
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Nov 28, 2014 00:52
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TheImmigrant posted:I've been to university in France and Uruguay. In both countries, universities skew to the left of general society as well. Lots of flirtation with fashionable leftist stances, e.g. Trotskyism, syndicalism, even the occasional Maoist. fanged wang posted:by what criteria are these cases certain and isolated
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Nov 28, 2014 00:53
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TheImmigrant posted:When was the last time you had your left-wing ideas challenged at college? Have you ever considered attending an Objectivist lecture? Why not? I went to one once, just to see what it was about. I listened, thought about it, and was resoundingly unconvinced; but I was more secure in my rejection of Randianism after leaving than I had been when I walked in. I voted for Bush in college e: more seriously I went to see Jacob Hornberger and Glenn Greenwald at UW right before (I guess during, in retrospect) the Snowden poo poo. The Youth For Liberty or some other ronpaul poo poo hosted it, and the socialists set up a table with literature outside the hallway. but that was years after I went there woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 00:53
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fanged wang posted:i know if i hear about a thing that doesn't immediately flatter my biases i dismiss it completely and regurgitate canned talking points about a nebulous other to reassure myself Seriously when was the last time d d actually debated something.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:08
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well lets see in the first case black coworkers repeatedly told the janitor to stop, and he continued to bring the book to work, and the administration told him to stop and he kept doing it and got fired. say what you will about freedom of thought or whatever the gently caress but we live in an at will employment country, so firing an employee for repeatedly pissing off his coworkers and completely disregarding their feelings doesn't exactly feel like a terrible thing imo. it sounds like he was a stubborn dick about it. do you support employer's right to fire employees at will? second case; a poll. great, who gives a gently caress what a cohort of people who revel in feeling repressed subjectively feel. see, e.g., WAR ON CHRISTMAS, all the poo poo about this "no longer being a christian nation, whatever other bullshit about right wingers feeling oppressed. who cares what they feel, they're not. third one is the "indoctrination program", which here it is: http://d28htnjz2elwuj.cloudfront.net/pdfs/a2e5d0bcaeffab32138e77191c765347.pdf it honestly feels pretty benign to me, and if you're opposed to the sustainability poo poo, well the dorms are the ones footing the utilities bill so maybe encouraging students to consume less power is in their interest? anyway telling people things is not suppressing any ideas, and saying that they should present the "opposite" view is uh yeah just conservative handwringing. what's the opposing viewpoint of the sustainability poo poo? lying to them about accepted facts on climate change because it hurts conservatives' feelings? yeah get hosed. fourth case yeah that's hosed up but that's suppressing students opposing university graft and corruption, which isn't inherently ideological. corrupt university president tries to protect his own financial interests, winds up legally hosed for it, okay, good job, FIRE did something actually useful. but yeah taking the alarmist language of an advocacy group at face value is a good way to know the facts, and points to a lockstep conspiracy of suppression of a class of people. hey so what are your thoughts on systemic racial oppression in america, out of curiosity? does it exist
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Nov 28, 2014 01:10
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icantfindaname posted:What do you think, OP? I really don't know. I don't think there's a vast right/left wing conspiracy to silence dissent on campus but the fact that these individual incidents occurred (even if they were corrected for the most part) is fairly alarming. Maybe I'm just sheltered? I went to a small liberal arts school in the Deep South and never felt harassed or threatened for my left wing views. The only vaguely relatable thing I encountered was a fairly bizarre incident in my senior year. Someone had donated their art collection to the university library. The art was Civil War focused and included a hilariously glorifying portrait of Nathan Bedford Forrest. A student from the Ivory Coast noticed this and started a petition (which I signed) to have the portrait removed from view. Nobody wanted the portrait hanging there, not the library staff, not the various professors, and not the students. It was quietly removed within the week and as far as I know was given back to the donor. Jagchosis posted:well lets see in the first case black coworkers repeatedly told the janitor to stop, and he continued to bring the book to work, and the administration told him to stop and he kept doing it and got fired. say what you will about freedom of thought or whatever the gently caress but we live in an at will employment country, so firing an employee for repeatedly pissing off his coworkers and completely disregarding their feelings doesn't exactly feel like a terrible thing imo. it sounds like he was a stubborn dick about it. do you support employer's right to fire employees at will? Cool,thanks for addressing each case there. I don't know, that first case still seems iffy to me. Yeah, if coworkers asked the guy to stop then it was pretty dickish of him not to stop but I don't see anything fireable in that offense. Employers shouldn't be able to fire employees for any reason they like, especially for reading a book, a anti-racist book at that. The "indoctrination program" seems pretty harmless and upon actually reading it I have to agree with you. If someone is so thin skinned that their hurt by a college orientation then I don't know what to say. Of course systemic racial oppression exists in this country. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:16
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I think it's pretty lame that there are a lot of incidents in recent years where there'll be a speaker some group hired to come in, and then people who disagree with that person will go there and try to yell and drown them out every time they say something.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:57
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-Troika- posted:I think it's pretty lame that there are a lot of incidents in recent years where there'll be a speaker some group hired to come in, and then people who disagree with that person will go there and try to yell and drown them out every time they say something. It is a little lame but it isn't exactly a free speech issue. tsa posted:Seriously when was the last time d d actually debated something. All the time but really there isn't much to debate here. Though I assume he was talking about the nebulous other being the dastardly liberal trying to censor speech.
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Nov 28, 2014 01:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:It is a little lame but it isn't exactly a free speech issue. Uh how is it not a free speech issue, especially when a university punishes people for some speakers but not others? You don't get to use your speech to drown out and prevent other's speech.
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Nov 28, 2014 02:04
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-Troika- posted:Uh how is it not a free speech issue, especially when a university punishes people for some speakers but not others? You don't get to use your speech to drown out and prevent other's speech. You don't know what free speech is HTH
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Nov 28, 2014 02:09
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Slanderer posted:You don't know what free speech is HTH 
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Nov 28, 2014 02:12
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Nov 28, 2014 02:22
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-Troika- posted:Uh how is it not a free speech issue, especially when a university punishes people for some speakers but not others? You don't get to use your speech to drown out and prevent other's speech. Well I mean free speech only really applies to the government, so unless it was a pubic uni9versity it literally can't apply. Though then again that is somewhat different then what you said before. If anything, removing hecklers seems to violate the free speech you seem to believe exists.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:15
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People who show up to drown out a speaker arn't there to exercise their right to free speech, they're there to impede someone else's.
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Nov 28, 2014 04:52
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-Troika- posted:People who show up to drown out a speaker arn't there to exercise their right to free speech, they're there to impede someone else's. a cogent constitutional analysis
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Nov 28, 2014 05:11
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The 1st amendment protects you from the government censoring you, everyone outside the government can censor just as much as they want. So if people tell you to shut the gently caress up, they aren't violating your rights.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:29
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Free Speech Zones!
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Nov 28, 2014 05:30
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-Troika- posted:People who show up to drown out a speaker arn't there to exercise their right to free speech, they're there to impede someone else's. Incidentally, impeding free speech is also free speech. For instance: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/18/AR2006021801422.html
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Nov 28, 2014 05:45
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Are linkbaity headlines that pose edgy-sounding but actually-rhetorical questions terrible, or am I overreacting? For content, though, I thought this thread would be about the "perception management" component of the corporatisation trend in universities: the fact that most staff have to go through the PR department to voice an opinion, the enormous and growing marketing budgets, and so on. But no. 
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Nov 28, 2014 05:51
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Alexzandvar posted:The 1st amendment protects you from the government censoring you, everyone outside the government can censor just as much as they want. Schools are generally pretty lenient towards leftist "no platform" activists, and generally allow them to use physical resistance and blockade buildings where wrongthink is occurring. If hard-right groups were allowed to use the same tactics while the administration turned a blind eye, there wouldn't be nearly the same perception of bias or censorship.
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Nov 28, 2014 05:55
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on the left posted:Schools are generally pretty lenient towards leftist "no platform" activists, and generally allow them to use physical resistance and blockade buildings where wrongthink is occurring. If hard-right groups were allowed to use the same tactics while the administration turned a blind eye, there wouldn't be nearly the same perception of bias or censorship. as clearly evidenced by yosbutt
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Nov 28, 2014 05:59
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Are linkbaity headlines that pose edgy-sounding but actually-rhetorical questions terrible, or am I overreacting? no that sounds interesting though i would click on that thread
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Nov 28, 2014 06:20
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So what does free speech being attacked (by a non-government source) actually look like?
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Nov 28, 2014 07:37
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-Troika- posted:I think it's pretty lame that there are a lot of incidents in recent years where there'll be a speaker some group hired to come in, and then people who disagree with that person will go there and try to yell and drown them out every time they say something. Yell back, I say. Rhetoric used to be an art form, and if you want to call yourself a public intellectual you should be prepared to have impromptu back-and-forths with hecklers. Death to stuffy canned speeches, lets see some enthusiasm out there on the agora.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:49
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paranoid randroid posted:Yell back, I say. Rhetoric used to be an art form, and if you want to call yourself a public intellectual you should be prepared to have impromptu back-and-forths with hecklers. I think the point isn't that they are just heckling and trying to upstage you, it is that they deliberately try to drown out everything you say so no one can hear you. Even if you have a clear speaking voice and an appropriate volume microphone/amp system, they are going to make it uncomfortable or a hassle for people to listen. Blocking people's view of view with signs and other obstruction/distraction tactics. Flying dildo-copters excluded of course.
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Nov 28, 2014 07:54
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saying things is hard when people don't like you
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Nov 28, 2014 08:26
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I read the preface to a book entitled Denying the Holocaust: The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory. It talked about how 'holocaust revisionist' (read: denialist) ads would be vilified and yet remain up due to newspaper editors feeling it to be a case of free speech. The author, Mrs. Lipstadt, also remarked on how she refuses to engage in debate with holocaust revisionists, as she believes that the last thing such a topic warrants is more attention drawn to it. To her, more exposure means more legitimacy is implied. I wish more people held Mrs. Lipstadt's views, and not just on holocaust deniers.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:29
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icantfindaname posted:Universities, with the possible exception of right leaning ones like Bob Dole and religious colleges, don't pressure people into actively supporting political causes, right or left. You can be completely apolitical if you want and will run into no trouble. It is true that right wing ideology is usually not welcome around universities, but you don't actually have a right to have your ideology be welcome anywhere, only that the government can't restrict your ability to speak Bob Dole wants you to know that it's Bob Jones, not Bob Dole. Bob Dole.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:31
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Luigi Thirty posted:Bob Dole wants you to know that it's Bob Jones, not Bob Dole. Bob Dole. That joke is now roughly 20 years old.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:38
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Skeesix posted:That joke is now roughly 20 years old. this is what suppressing speech looks like.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:40
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Skeesix posted:That joke is now roughly 20 years old. bob dole doesn't like this
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Nov 28, 2014 08:45
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Skeesix posted:That joke is now roughly 20 years old. That means it's ripe for a big budget Hollywood remake.
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Nov 28, 2014 08:48
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Groups runs by libertarian/right-wing nutjobs are probably not the best standard bearer in the fight for the free exchange of ideas on college campuses. Thankfully, there are liberal groups like the ACLU willing to take a stand against both left-wing and right-wing authoritarianism and protect freedom of expression.
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Nov 28, 2014 09:45
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Do Americans just not know what the 1st Amendment is or something? I'm a dirty limey bastard but even I know the first amendment applies to government attempts to censor free speech only. Any random Joe can tell you repeatedly to shut the gently caress up and could follow you around with the world's greatest sound system and constantly drown out all your speech for the rest of your life and he wouldn't be violating your right to free speech.
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Nov 28, 2014 15:58
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Ddraig posted:Do Americans just not know what the 1st Amendment is or something? I'm a dirty limey bastard but even I know the first amendment applies to government attempts to censor free speech only. It becomes more of an issue for publicly funded universities though.
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Nov 28, 2014 16:07
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