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So, yesterday I started reading Greg Lukianoff's recent book Unlearning Liberty: Campus Censorship and the End of American Debate . It's fairly well written so far though but Greg is president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education so he makes no question of his bias for absolute free speech. I rolled my eyes when he uniroincally used the phrase "Political Correctness gone amok" but some of the incidents he brings up were rather iffy ( http://www.thefire.org/cases/indian...reading-a-book/ http://www.thefire.org/20-percent-of-students-feel-having-unpopular-views-on-campus-is-unsafe/ http://www.thefire.org/cases/university-of-delaware-students-required-to-undergo-ideological-reeducation/ http://www.thefire.org/cases/valdosta-state-university-student-expelled-for-peacefully-protesting-parking-garages/ ) Now, I'm still fairly early in the book but I have two questions: 1. Is this guy and FIRE being truthful or leaving out critical information on the cases it mentions? 2. Has any poster here encountered restrictions of speech on campus or is Lukianoff cherry picking incidents? Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Nov 27, 2014 |
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Nov 27, 2014 23:08
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Jagchosis posted:i actually joined a conservative group that is dedicated to fighting back against the liberal dominance of discourse on campus (because they have really good food). it is literally just a bunch of white people hand wringing about how no one agrees with their lovely ideas. if there was actual systemic oppression of conservative ideology, then good, gently caress these people Young Americans for Liberty? I knew one guy who joined that, of course he was a Paultard. Nice guy but when he handed me a pamphlet about how FDR caused the Great Depression is when I tuned him out.
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Nov 27, 2014 23:53
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icantfindaname posted:What do you think, OP? I really don't know. I don't think there's a vast right/left wing conspiracy to silence dissent on campus but the fact that these individual incidents occurred (even if they were corrected for the most part) is fairly alarming. Maybe I'm just sheltered? I went to a small liberal arts school in the Deep South and never felt harassed or threatened for my left wing views. The only vaguely relatable thing I encountered was a fairly bizarre incident in my senior year. Someone had donated their art collection to the university library. The art was Civil War focused and included a hilariously glorifying portrait of Nathan Bedford Forrest. A student from the Ivory Coast noticed this and started a petition (which I signed) to have the portrait removed from view. Nobody wanted the portrait hanging there, not the library staff, not the various professors, and not the students. It was quietly removed within the week and as far as I know was given back to the donor. Jagchosis posted:well lets see in the first case black coworkers repeatedly told the janitor to stop, and he continued to bring the book to work, and the administration told him to stop and he kept doing it and got fired. say what you will about freedom of thought or whatever the gently caress but we live in an at will employment country, so firing an employee for repeatedly pissing off his coworkers and completely disregarding their feelings doesn't exactly feel like a terrible thing imo. it sounds like he was a stubborn dick about it. do you support employer's right to fire employees at will? Cool,thanks for addressing each case there. I don't know, that first case still seems iffy to me. Yeah, if coworkers asked the guy to stop then it was pretty dickish of him not to stop but I don't see anything fireable in that offense. Employers shouldn't be able to fire employees for any reason they like, especially for reading a book, a anti-racist book at that. The "indoctrination program" seems pretty harmless and upon actually reading it I have to agree with you. If someone is so thin skinned that their hurt by a college orientation then I don't know what to say. Of course systemic racial oppression exists in this country. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Nov 28, 2014 |
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Nov 28, 2014 01:16
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Read some more of the book today, went into "Free Speech Zones" which he describes are often in a isolated part of the campus as to isolate the protestors. Brings up a case at Texas Tech where a FIRE lawsuit got rid of a extremely tiny "Free Speech Gazebo" that the university was segregating anti-Iraq War protestors on/ ( http://www.thefire.org/this-month-in-fire-history-lawsuit-challenges-speech-code-and-free-speech-gazebo-at-texas-tech/ ) He brings up the fact that there are restrictions even in these "Free Speech Zones", Valdosta State University for example confined students to a "small stage" "use of which was restricted to two non-consecutive hours per day—and only on weekdays" (Looking on various sites this seems to have since been overturned by courts). He somewhat went on the attack in the latest chapter I read, writing quote:"Defenders of speech codes will often invoke nightmare scenarios of minority students chased off campus by mobs of bigots shouting racial slurs. These hypothetical examples often include speech that is not constitutionally protected; such as true threats, stalking, or vandalism. In reality the way speech codes are implemented often bears no resemblance to such horror stories, many cases involve nothing more serious then mockery of the university or the administration. Overall I'm finding that sometimes he makes good arguments, other times, 'eh, it's a bit iffy. It is fairly annoying how on every other page it seems he has to remind the reader that "I'M A DEMOCRAT, GUYS!".
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Nov 29, 2014 04:43
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:This reminds me of what, I believe, Bill Nye once said about debating with climate change deniers. It is simply not worth it because the very idea of "debating" against such an illegitimate argument gives them an air of legitimacy and a podium that they don't deserve. Exactly how Deborah Lipstadt feels about Holocaust deniers. Basically there are arguments that are objectively unworthy of being given the time of day in any respectable forum for discussion in an academic setting. That being said they should absolutely be allowed to spout of their nonsense on a sidewalk or in the middle of the park until their lungs give out but everyone else has the right to laugh in their faces. From what I can tell that's the view the author of the book is trying to express so far. Now, like I said, i'm still fairly early on in my reading.
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Nov 30, 2014 04:32
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Ogmius815 posted:I'm starting to worry that we're doing the OP's homework or something. Nope, graduated already. Just figured it would be a interesting discussion and I was fairly curious to see the forums thoughts. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Nov 30, 2014 |
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Nov 30, 2014 04:51
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420DD Butts posted:
Well, there was this guy http://www.thefire.org/cases/university-of-kansas-anti-nra-tweet-results-in-professors-suspension/ quote:On September 16, 2013, a few hours after shootings at Washington, D.C.’s Navy Yard, University of Kansas Professor David Guth posted a tweet to his personal Twitter account condemning the National Rifle Association, saying “Next time, let it be YOUR sons and daughters. Shame on you. May God drat you.” Following substantial public pressure and criticism, including from Kansas state legislators, KU placed Guth on administrative leave on September 20. FIRE wrote to Chancellor Bernadette Gray-Little on September 22, pointing out that Guth’s expression was fully protected and that a university investigation into his speech on the basis of its content was not acceptable. Chancellor Gray-Little released a statement to the KU community on September 23, clarifying that Guth’s suspension was not related to the content of his expression, but defended his suspension by claiming it was necessary to prevent further “disruption.” It looks like he returned around April of this year though. http://kansasfirstnews.com/2014/04/02/ku-professor-returning-after-leave-over-controversal-tweet/
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Dec 1, 2014 01:59
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Effectronica posted:I don't know why people think that incidents like these are political in nature rather than universities becoming as intolerant and frightened of controversy as any other big business. It's funny to read, but thinking that a grand conspiracy of communists and trans women has taken over the state university system is downright paranoid. You're right there, there are numerous apolitical cases, or even bi-political (is that even a word? maybe bipartisan would be better) http://www.thefire.org/cases/university-of-central-florida-professor-suspended-for-in-class-joke/ quote:On April 23, 2013, Hyung-il Jung, a lecturer in UCF’s Rosen College of Hospitality Management, held a review session for an accounting course, at which roughly 25 students were present. During the session, Jung noted that his students seemed to be struggling with his questions and joked, “It looks like you guys are being slowly suffocated by these questions. Am I on a killing spree or what?” On April 24, after a student complained about Jung’s remark, UCF placed Jung on paid administrative leave, barred him from entering the Rosen College campus, required him to complete a mental evaluation, and prohibited him from contacting any UCF students. FIRE wrote to UCF President John C. Hitt on April 26, calling for Jung’s immediate reinstatement. UCF fully reinstated Jung on May 13, without requiring that he submit to a mental evaluation in advance. http://www.thefire.org/cases/ohio-university-political-flyers-censored-in-dorms/ quote:In September 2012, Ohio University student Jillyann Burns posted a flyer on the door to her residence hall room, criticizing the policy positions of President Barack Obama and Governor Mitt Romney. Shortly after Burns posted her flyer, a resident assistant warned residents that “NO political posters/flyers should be hung in the hallways or on you[r] door until 14 days before an election.” Following a room inspection on September 17, Burns was informed again of this requirement and the possibility of discipline if she did not comply. FIRE wrote to OU on September 28, informing the university that its restrictions on political flyers violated students’ First Amendment rights. On October 1, Burns was informed that she was once again allowed to post political materials on her door, and that OU would revise and clarify its policies. http://www.thefire.org/cases/catawb...ny-on-facebook/ quote:In June 2011, Catawba Valley Community College (CVCC) announced a partnership with the financial services company Higher One to provide debit cards to CVCC students. In response, CVCC student Marc Bechtol and other students criticized the partnership on CVCC’s Facebook page. On September 28, Bechtol posted a critical message in which he joked, “I think we should register CVCC’s address with every porn site known to man.” One week later Bechtol was pulled out of his classroom and told not to return. On October 5, 2011, without a hearing, he was suspended for two semesters for violating the CVCC policy prohibiting any “offense which, in the opinion of the administration or faculty, may be contrary to the best interest of the CVCC community.” FIRE has asked CVCC to immediately abandon its punishment of Bechtol and drop all disciplinary proceedings. Under national pressure from FIRE, CVCC abandoned its punishment of Bechtol but failed to acknowledge that the speech was protected. http://www.thefire.org/cases/sam-ho...th-misdemeanor/ quote:On September 22, 2011, the student groups SHSU Lovers of Liberty, Bearkat Democrats, Young Democratic Socialists, and College Republicans sponsored the display of a “free speech wall,” on which students were invited to write any message they wanted. When SHSU Professor Joe E. Kirk saw that someone had written “gently caress OBAMA” on the wall, he demanded that the student organizers cover up the message. When they refused, Kirk returned with a box cutter and cut out the word “gently caress.” On the advice of an SHSU administrator, the student groups contacted SHSU’s University Police Department to report Kirk’s vandalism. After SHSU police Deputy Chief James Fitch interviewed the students and Kirk, however, he ordered the students to either censor the profanity on the wall or take down the wall altogether. The students decided to take down the wall. Fitch later stated that because Kirk was “offended by the use of the profanity,” its use “qualified it as disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor.” http://www.thefire.org/cases/gainesville-state-college-president-censors-faculty-art-critical-of-confederate-heritage/ quote:Gainesville State College (GSC) unconstitutionally censored a painting critical of Confederate heritage by removing it from a faculty art exhibition. Art instructor and artist Stanley Bermudez’ painting “Heritage?” features images of a lynching and of a torch-wielding member of the Ku Klux Klan superimposed onto a Confederate flag. Two weeks into the exhibition, when critics of the painting contacted GSC President Martha T. Nesbitt, she removed it, claiming that “I have to consider the impact of an action on the health and reputation of the institution. In this instance, I made a judgment call that the negative results would outweigh the positive ones.” FIRE has asked President Nesbitt to announce to GSC’s students and faculty that their protected expression will never again be subject to censorship.
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Dec 1, 2014 04:24
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Effectronica posted:Yeah. Universities are becoming a gigantic business, and they absolutely don't want to hurt their business if they can avoid it. Liberal biases, if they exist, are almost certainly because young people are perceived as generally liberal. That's a pretty good way to sum it up, it doesn't make these incidents right but it certainly helps provide context. Nckdictator fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 1, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2014 04:31
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Poizen Jam posted:So Snark, do you think the cultural shift regarding how inappropriate it is to say 'fag' or 'friend of the family', and the subsequent shouting down and shaming of anyone stupid enough to openly express their bigotry, has played a role in creating environments and a culture where oppressed minorities can actually learn and express their own opinions? Because a lot of these changes came about specifically because of top-down policies like hate speech laws and speech codes at university. I know this wasn't directed at me but If I could share a quote from Lukianoff's book that started this whole thread. quote:"Defenders of speech codes will often invoke nightmare scenarios of minority students chased off campus by mobs of bigots shouting racial slurs. These hypothetical examples often include speech that is not constitutionally protected; such as true threats, stalking, or vandalism. In reality the way speech codes are implemented often bears no resemblance to such horror stories, many cases involve nothing more serious then mockery of the university or the administration. Now, I don't fully agree with that and I think the author there might have a rose-colored view of race relations in this country but it's still a viewpoint worth considering I guess.
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Dec 3, 2014 22:54
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on the left posted:If you mock and shout obscenities to try to drown out a person guilty of politically incorrect wrongthink, you will experience no disciplinary action. If you do the same thing to feminists, you will be disciplined and forced to sit through a bunch of sensitivity training. quote:On Friday, a group of fraternity members at San Diego State University reportedly interrupted a "Take Back the Night" march — an event designed to bring awareness about sexual assault — by screaming obscenities, throwing eggs and waving dildos at marchers. I don't think throwing things at people is protected speech.
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Dec 4, 2014 04:32
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Well, somewhat related news. http://www.sgvtribune.com/social-affairs/20141203/citrus-college-settles-free-speech-lawsuit-by-student quote:Citrus College is modifying its free speech policy and procedures after the college settled a First Amendment lawsuit on Wednesday.
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Dec 4, 2014 06:05
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