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I'd probably lean towards simplifying the cards instead of making the deck more complex, and having the complexity come from your character (eg, hits fill boxes on your sheet, which has an effect. The effect is determined by your character class or something else unique to you).
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Dec 2, 2014 12:25
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Myself, I'd skip the damage altoghether. I'd do something like a track of 3-5 wounds, with every hit hurting the same and you being knocked out once you have no more boxes to fill. The difference from simply having 3-5 HPs would be that each wound would come with some sort of debuff - decided by cards, dice, Apocalypse World-style list, whatever - that steals all the focus of damage-taking. So it's not as much HP-counting as "ok, you took an arrow to the knee, guess you can't run and jump until you've healed". Basically making the act of getting hurt an event into itself.
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Dec 2, 2014 12:39
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So basically FATE consequences?
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Dec 2, 2014 13:18
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Yeah, just a bit more restrictive and fine-tuned for a proper feel I feel like evoking.
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Dec 2, 2014 13:28
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Kai Tave posted:Gygax was basically just making poo poo up on the spot though, he wasn't really sitting down and concerning himself with things like unified task resolution. Saving throws were basically "ugh fine, even though the medusa should totally just petrify you I'll let you roll a die and if you roll the right number then it won't," which then got codified as a standard thing probably because the other players present suddenly all wanted the same consideration. Also Gygax was an inelegant a designer as you could imagine, where if somebody came up with a ruling, he just threw it into the game, which is why early versions of Dungeons & Dragons and Advanced Dungeons & Dragons are such an incoherent mess. (Which isn't just hindsight or from the perspective of modern design, people like Greg Stafford or Ken St. Andre said as much at the time.) AD&D itself didn't even start to be properly organized as a rules set until after Gygax left the picture with 2e. It's a testament to the strength of the role-playing concept that it thrived despite AD&D being a practically unreadable mess, as the grand majority of people played it ran it based on fan interpretations of the rules rather than the actual rules. Gygax and Arneson certainly deserve the credit due, and it's not as if Gygax didn't make some powerful ideas, but his game design mostly consisted of throwing things at a wall and seeing what stuck. Some things became powerful pillars of game design (XP, classes, levels), and many more did not (class level limits by race, weapon AC modifiers, random psionics), but Gygax was never that strong a designer, as evidenced by his inability to design a successful game after AD&D.
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Dec 2, 2014 14:43
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Lichtenstein posted:Myself, I'd skip the damage altoghether. I'd do something like a track of 3-5 wounds, with every hit hurting the same and you being knocked out once you have no more boxes to fill. The difference from simply having 3-5 HPs would be that each wound would come with some sort of debuff - decided by cards, dice, Apocalypse World-style list, whatever - that steals all the focus of damage-taking. So it's not as much HP-counting as "ok, you took an arrow to the knee, guess you can't run and jump until you've healed". Basically making the act of getting hurt an event into itself. The alternate AW harm rules are pretty boss, IMO, but if you want something a bit more formal the standard clock works well too.
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Dec 2, 2014 14:50
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I can kind of understand the reasoning behind saving throws working the way they do mechanics-wise, other than the whole "half-damage on a save" bullshit. If D&D wasn't so ludicrously tied to its archaic binary pass/fail systems it would be trivial to add a third case - full damage on a miss, half damage on a save that beats the DC by less than 5, no damage on a save that beats the DC by 5 or more and gives the defender an additional effect to reflect it (e.g. a Dex save against a fire spell could have you instantly rolling out of range and leave you prone, you take the brunt of a cold spell to your clothes/armor so you don't take damage but have 5ft less movement next turn, that kind of thing.)
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Dec 2, 2014 14:52
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Ryoshi posted:I can kind of understand the reasoning behind saving throws working the way they do mechanics-wise, other than the whole "half-damage on a save" bullshit. If D&D wasn't so ludicrously tied to its archaic binary pass/fail systems it would be trivial to add a third case - full damage on a miss, half damage on a save that beats the DC by less than 5, no damage on a save that beats the DC by 5 or more and gives the defender an additional effect to reflect it (e.g. a Dex save against a fire spell could have you instantly rolling out of range and leave you prone, you take the brunt of a cold spell to your clothes/armor so you don't take damage but have 5ft less movement next turn, that kind of thing.) half-damage on a miss is because casters can't suck for any reason, hth
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Dec 2, 2014 14:59
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I know you're joking about CASTER SUPREMACY, the apparent cornerstone of "real" D&D, but that's just it: if you shoot a spell and the target manages to save against it, that doesn't actually mean the wizard sucks, it means that they sent the target scrambling and they barely got through unscathed. The fact that the target makes the save (rather than making the wizard make a roll and miss) means that the wizard is still getting to be Super Wizard, the target just got particularly lucky.
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Dec 2, 2014 15:05
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Remember the whole shitstorm that started because of 'hit-on-a-miss' on martial classes? Good times.
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Dec 2, 2014 15:13
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Ryoshi posted:I know you're joking about CASTER SUPREMACY, the apparent cornerstone of "real" D&D, but that's just it: if you shoot a spell and the target manages to save against it, that doesn't actually mean the wizard sucks, it means that they sent the target scrambling and they barely got through unscathed. The fact that the target makes the save (rather than making the wizard make a roll and miss) means that the wizard is still getting to be Super Wizard, the target just got particularly lucky. I wasn't joking
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Dec 2, 2014 20:48
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I've recently started playing in a 7th Sea game. As far as I know the system's mostly about being flambouyant and cinematic and piratey, but does anyone have any particular words of wisdom to share about it?
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Dec 4, 2014 02:04
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Yeah. Sorcery sucks. Swordsman schools either suck or are broken, depending heavily on the school. One of the most effective things to do is to invest solely in basic hitting people skills. Panache and Finesse, together, are better than most any other stat. Panache is the best of the lot, though, with its extra actions. Oh, and be careful about spending Drama Dice because they are your XP.
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Dec 4, 2014 02:08
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gradenko_2000 posted:Can someone talk to me about the game design behind "saving throws" and defending against spells in general for D&D-esque games? I know the former was from Tony Bath's 1958? wargaming rules; the concept was created to add further delineation between "all of the units in this stack are killed" and "none of the units in this stack are killed." If you "saved" then you consulted the chart and your unit shrank in size instead. The concept of "armor class" is, if I recall correctly, basically a direct lift from the 1940s "Fletcher Pratt's Naval Wargame," based on the influential Jane's Ships guides started in the late 1800s, and the latter's obsession with chronicling every possible minutiae about the fighting capabilities of vessels. Sort of appropriate. Yes, I do still sleep with Jon Peterson's "Playing at the World" by my bedside, as you can tell. Alien Rope Burn posted:but Gygax was never that strong a designer, as evidenced by his inability to design a successful game after AD&D. For the time, I believe his actual-wargames were fairly well-received? Though that is pre-D&D for the most (entire?) part.
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Dec 4, 2014 02:16
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I feel the need to tell more people that I made a Maid class for Dungeon World. The good (?) news is that I'm starting some freelance work so I'll have less time to put into increasingly weird little RPG things.Quarex posted:I am only a minor Gygax apologist (really I am just a general apologist), but I know a fair number of people thought Dangerous Journeys had a lot of great ideas ...even if, well, it was apparently even more complicated than AD&D, unsurprisingly. Though I suppose that would speak to his strength as an Idea Man rather than an actual designer, now that I type it out. Certainly I do not know many people who spoke praise of Lejendary Adventure. And certainly nobody liked Cyborg Commando.
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Dec 4, 2014 02:31
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Mors Rattus posted:Yeah. Sorcery sucks. Swordsman schools either suck or are broken, depending heavily on the school. One of the most effective things to do is to invest solely in basic hitting people skills. Panache and Finesse, together, are better than most any other stat. Panache is the best of the lot, though, with its extra actions. The best houserule you can make for 7th sea is to just rule that 'if you spend a drama die on other things it converts immediately to XP' so you don't have to choose between "Can swash bucklers" and "Can improve stats" And even then it's not great. ...Come to think of it, -is- there a good piratey/swashbucklery RPG that's actually out yet? unseenlibrarian fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Dec 4, 2014 |
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Dec 4, 2014 02:46
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unseenlibrarian posted:The best houserule you can make for 7th sea is to just rule that 'if you spend a drama die on other things it converts immediately to XP' so you don't have to choose between "Can swash bucklers" and "Can improve stats"
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Dec 4, 2014 03:10
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unseenlibrarian posted:The best houserule you can make for 7th sea is to just rule that 'if you spend a drama die on other things it converts immediately to XP' so you don't have to choose between "Can swash bucklers" and "Can improve stats" I'm a big fan of Honor + Intrigue
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Dec 4, 2014 03:14
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Zereth posted:Hm. I wonder how a game where your drama dice/points/whatever were XP, but you had to spend them as the dice/point/whatever in order to convert them into XP would work. That sounds like a great version of the mechanic, honestly.
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Dec 4, 2014 03:15
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Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies is pretty good for the sort of thing the title suggests if you like A). the PDQ system and B). airships.
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Dec 4, 2014 03:25
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LeSquide posted:I'm a big fan of Honor + Intrigue Holy poo poo that site design.
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Dec 4, 2014 03:32
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Zereth posted:Hm. I wonder how a game where your drama dice/points/whatever were XP, but you had to spend them as the dice/point/whatever in order to convert them into XP would work. Torchbearer does exactly this. You are required to have spent at least X persona and Y fate points to level - there are two spaces on the sheet, one for points available and one for points spent.
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Dec 4, 2014 03:59
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xiw posted:Torchbearer does exactly this. You are required to have spent at least X persona and Y fate points to level - there are two spaces on the sheet, one for points available and one for points spent. Also, Old School Hack, a neat little indie hack and slasher, has this to an extent: the fame's big metagame currency is Awesome Points, which are awarded to you by the rest of the group for pulling awesome stunts, saying just the right cheesy line and so on. You can spend them on various thing, like bumping your damage up, recharging your daily and per arena powers on the fly and so on, and whenever you do you get an experience point. Once all the members of the group have spent enough Awesome Points they all gain a level together. It's a neat system: the players have a pool of Awesome Points from which they can reward each other, but said pool also acts as a way for the GM to add to the challenge. The GM has a number of things they can do by adding more points into the bowl, such as calling reinforcements and giving monsters nastier abilities or damage. Also, once players realize they all have to do awesome things for the group to level up they start encouraging each other to pull crazier and crazier stunts. Things tend to go pretty mental whenever I run it.
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Dec 4, 2014 09:57
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Kai Tave posted:Swashbucklers of the 7 Skies is pretty good for the sort of thing the title suggests if you like A). the PDQ system and B). airships. Seconded. Also pretty easy to strip out the airships and run it in a more boring setting if you want it to be an actual age of sail thing.
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Dec 4, 2014 10:03
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Quarex posted:Will it make you feel better or worse to know (if you do not already) that "saving throws" and "armor class" both predate Dungeons & Dragons by decades? If I recall the whole "HP" thing also came from the same naval wargame, which is why combat in D&D - and combat in almost every other ttg since because this hobby is little more then copy the leader followed by TRADITION! - is more or less two sides broadsiding each other and seeing who survives the volley.
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Dec 4, 2014 10:25
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DigitalRaven posted:Seconded. Also pretty easy to strip out the airships and run it in a more boring setting if you want it to be an actual age of sail thing. Or just use the free PDQ# rules that are already airship-free. The duelling rules are really quite elegant and genre appropriate.
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Dec 4, 2014 10:27
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Tulpa posted:Or just use the free PDQ# rules that are already airship-free. The duelling rules are really quite elegant and genre appropriate. The airship rules themselves actually still work extremely well for ship-to-ship combat (air or not). In fact, it's generally a decent way to handle any sort of mass combat.
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Dec 4, 2014 11:29
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ProfessorCirno posted:If I recall the whole "HP" thing also came from the same naval wargame, which is why combat in D&D - and combat in almost every other ttg since because this hobby is little more then copy the leader followed by TRADITION! - is more or less two sides broadsiding each other and seeing who survives the volley. I know GURPS doesn't do init like this, but lol if you play systems with init rules anyway
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Dec 4, 2014 14:12
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I do recall reading somewhere that armor class was descending because as it was derived from naval wargaming, it was a measure of rank. That is, an armor class of 1 meant "first-class, top-quality" armor. Also, THAC0 was purely a fan-made invention from people that didn't want to work with a matrix/write down the to-hit number for multiple sets of armor classes. D&D just ran with it in later editions. One wonders what might have happened if people thought of "Target 20" first/instead.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:20
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gradenko_2000 posted:Also, THAC0 was purely a fan-made invention from people that didn't want to work with a matrix/write down the to-hit number for multiple sets of armor classes. D&D just ran with it in later editions. One wonders what might have happened if people thought of "Target 20" first/instead. It was absolutely a fan-invention.
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Dec 4, 2014 15:23
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ProfessorCirno posted:If I recall the whole "HP" thing also came from the same naval wargame, which is why combat in D&D - and combat in almost every other ttg since because this hobby is little more then copy the leader followed by TRADITION! - is more or less two sides broadsiding each other and seeing who survives the volley. Whoa, I had no idea about this but when I read it it makes total sense. Thanks!
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Dec 4, 2014 15:25
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gradenko_2000 posted:I do recall reading somewhere that armor class was descending because as it was derived from naval wargaming, it was a measure of rank. That is, an armor class of 1 meant "first-class, top-quality" armor.
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Dec 4, 2014 16:20
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unseenlibrarian posted:The best houserule you can make for 7th sea is to just rule that 'if you spend a drama die on other things it converts immediately to XP' so you don't have to choose between "Can swash bucklers" and "Can improve stats" Actually the best houserule for 7th Sea is All Aliens All The Time.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:08
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7th Sea just needed a mechanic where you randomly roll up a secret society and assign it to the players but they don't know. Five years into a campaign, you are finally allowed to inform your players they were *rolls* crab-men from *rolls* the moon and have a plan to *rolls* destroy all freedom through *rolls* a photonic virus.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:23
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Alien Rope Burn posted:7th Sea just needed a mechanic where you randomly roll up a secret society and assign it to the players but they don't know. Five years into a campaign, you are finally allowed to inform your players they were *rolls* crab-men from *rolls* the moon and have a plan to *rolls* destroy all freedom through *rolls* a photonic virus.
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Dec 4, 2014 19:25
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Yawgmoth posted:Every game should have some "roll up a secret society" charts. Someone make this, I need some more crazy poo poo for my Mage game. Toolcards: Cults 30 double-sided cards with various cultic themes, names and aims. Shuffle, flip, cut, draw, mix and match. I love the whole series for GMing Dungeon World. My improv needs a few seeds.
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Dec 5, 2014 07:49
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Alien Rope Burn posted:7th Sea just needed a mechanic where you randomly roll up a secret society and assign it to the players but they don't know. Five years into a campaign, you are finally allowed to inform your players they were *rolls* crab-men from *rolls* the moon and have a plan to *rolls* destroy all freedom through *rolls* a photonic virus. Isn't that actually the Metaplot, though? I have such a chip on my shoulder about 7th Sea's metaplot because I was in a 7th Sea campaign that was pretty awesome right up until the GM bought all the books, excited, and decided he would follow the goddamn metaplot to the letter and killed the game right quick by doing it.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:23
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I am legit curious to know if anyone out there played in a 7th Sea game where the big metaplot reveal came into play and it was greeted as a positive addition. Someone out there had that happen and thought it was the most amazing goddamn thing and I want to hear that person's story.
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Dec 5, 2014 08:37
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I really enjoyed reading the metaplot, but I played 7th Sea for maybe a year and ran it for two more and it remained entirely irrelevant the whole time.
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Dec 5, 2014 09:38
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Which big metaplot reveal? Cause there were like...30. Though the worst was "By the way except for two schools every PC-facing variety of magic is slowly destroying the world, but especially this one"
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Dec 5, 2014 12:48
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