TG December Chat Thread: And Gygax bless us, every one.

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG December Chat Thread: And Gygax bless us, every one.

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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gradenko_2000 posted:

Can someone talk to me about the game design behind "saving throws" and defending against spells in general for D&D-esque games?

I understand that some sort of chance to resist a debilitating effect is necessary, since such things tend to be more powerful than raw damage. I also understand that there's some sort of expectation built around (direct damage) spells being defended against by a stat that's NOT Armor Class.

What I'm not quite getting is "a successful save causes half damage, a failed save causes full damage", apart from simply being the way that such a thing has always been done.

Will it make you feel better or worse to know (if you do not already) that "saving throws" and "armor class" both predate Dungeons & Dragons by decades?

I know the former was from Tony Bath's 1958? wargaming rules; the concept was created to add further delineation between "all of the units in this stack are killed" and "none of the units in this stack are killed." If you "saved" then you consulted the chart and your unit shrank in size instead.

The concept of "armor class" is, if I recall correctly, basically a direct lift from the 1940s "Fletcher Pratt's Naval Wargame," based on the influential Jane's Ships guides started in the late 1800s, and the latter's obsession with chronicling every possible minutiae about the fighting capabilities of vessels. Sort of appropriate.

Yes, I do still sleep with Jon Peterson's "Playing at the World" by my bedside, as you can tell.

Alien Rope Burn posted:

but Gygax was never that strong a designer, as evidenced by his inability to design a successful game after AD&D.

I am only a minor Gygax apologist (really I am just a general apologist), but I know a fair number of people thought Dangerous Journeys had a lot of great ideas ...even if, well, it was apparently even more complicated than AD&D, unsurprisingly. Though I suppose that would speak to his strength as an Idea Man rather than an actual designer, now that I type it out. Certainly I do not know many people who spoke praise of Lejendary Adventure. And certainly nobody liked Cyborg Commando.

For the time, I believe his actual-wargames were fairly well-received? Though that is pre-D&D for the most (entire?) part.

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 02:16

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 07:46

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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AmiYumi posted:

Yeah, if I wanted the "play scrubs who barely scrape by" approach, there's better games for that, like Warhammer. Yet there's this vocal group that feels like that's what *every* game needs to be. I was flipping through old gaming mags recently and was just baffled by all the advertising for the d20 Star Wars RPG: just huge shots of crowds of stormtroopers or ewoks or w/e, and an arrow pointing all "YOU CAN PLAY THIS FACELESS MOOK". Who does that appeal to?

:iamafag:

The people like me who lost interest in Knights of the Old Republic when they revealed you had to be a human/near-human race and had to be a faithful servant of the Rebellion or the Empire. Even Star Wars Galaxies had plenty of stuff to do for people like me who just like generic science fiction and would rather be a Rodian Smuggler going about his business than someone picking sides in the standard conflict.

What IS the best system for playing expendable awful losers? Warhammer? ... Hol? Cthulhu? Haha.

But I also like random rolling so pretty much I am awful

I do like the suggestion I first read here a few years ago though, "everyone rolls a random set of stats and anyone can pick any of the sets," since that is the best compromise between maximizing fun randomness and minimizing awful randomness.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 01:04

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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It...it makes so much sense when presented to me like that. I even played the PC version and loved character creation so much that it probably single-handedly kept me interested days longer than it should have.

Welp, time to find a gaming group.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 02:46

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

Tendales posted:

Quick story: One of the devs (or someone involved in the game, anyway, wasn't too clear) came into the store to pitch the game to us. While we were yammering about rpgs in general, the conversation drifted to the upcoming FFG apocalypse quadrology, and I commented on how they're going to be 'stat yourself in the apocalypse!!!' games, which is like babby's first heartbreaker game pitch. He gave me a dead stare, and started talking about the game he's working on currently, where you stat up yourself in the apocalypse...

Every two months the same discussion comes up where it turns out everyone else but me apparently hates "stat yourself up" games :mad:

Lots of new people in the thread last month, though--any of you new folks also have nothing but good-to-great-to-best-campaign-ever experiences with games that start with something like "O.K., you are all sitting around this table in our gaming room when you hear an explosion outside?"

Edit: I mean when I found out about the Fantasy Fight Games Quadrology Of The Apocalypse or whatever they call it, I forwarded it along to my classic gaming group and 3/4 of them literally responded like OH MY GOD THIS IS SO AMAZING SOMEONE ELSE FINALLY UNDERSTANDS THAT THIS SHOULD BE FORMALLY PUT TOGETHER

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 15:29

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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ravenkult posted:

It's always been boring as hell. Nobody really wants to play themselves in an RPG because most people are either boring or don't want to reveal their darkest secrets at the table. So while playing a vampire hunter or something, you can come up with an alcoholic dude who killed both his kids in a car accident and is also a detective, but ''John, the GameStop guy'' isn't really that interesting in play.

I will rebut your reply with this reply

Lichtenstein posted:

I'm not sure whether it involved statting oneselves or not in the end (sadly I couldn't attend that particular game), but a fellow goon did a hilarious campy take on "Escape from New York" based on an infamous district of a city we live in.

Let's just say it began with a Tupolev crashing down over the local hive of scum & villainy and the rest is history.

^^^
The argument about how playing yourself is sad/stupid has certainly come up before when I relentlessly pushed this topic, and like, I certainly understand it in theory. Real people are not pulp heroes, wizards, starship pilots, what have you. But even the people in our gaming group who struggle with clinical depression can get behind the absurd power fantasy of starting with "a realistic you" and blasting off in absurd directions from there. It is not that hard to handwave something even vaguely verisimilitudinous to get the campaign going, either--when I ran a supposed-to-be-one-shot play-yourselves game that the players ended up begging to turn into a campaign, I narrated a break where they were throw in prison for the better part of a year in-game, gave them a few sessions' worth of experience, and said "OK, now go!"

But Kai Tave's point is well-taken; about half of my usual gaming group was one of the following: gun nut/survivalist, real-life-jack-of-all-trades, or actually-charismatic local quasi-celebrity, so it was never implausible that a group including some of these people could help the others get up to speed in a poo poo-hit-the-fan scenario.

DocBubonic posted:

Could someone explain why roleplaying yourself would be fun? I spend most of my week being myself and when I game I want to be something else.

I guess if the character you're playing is an idealized version of yourself with all sorts of awesome abilities, then that might be a little fun but then that wouldn't be playing myself.

This is virtually an ideological argument, from what I can gather due to the polarizing reactions to the idea. I never knew anyone disliked "play-as-yourself" games until the topic came up here. I have played in a half-dozen different campaigns that start with "OK you guys so you are all [at a local landmark] and [a dramatic thing occurs], what do you do?" and drat if every single one was not fun at the very least. The group was always different by at least two or three people, so it is not like we ever had literally "oh, another time these same five people are pretending they are becoming superheroes/wizards/post-apocalyptic survivors!" which may have also helped the idea stay fresh. I mean, the e-mail just went out last week informing our current group that we are starting up another play-yourself-crossover game, and the excitement is pretty much palpable. I JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE HATE AHHHHHHH but I still love all of you

Davin Valkri posted:

Is there any sort of setting where "play as yourself!" could work well? I mean, zombies and aliens are probably bad at it, but would something like Golden Sky Stories or Do: Monks of the Flying Temple adapt well to that sort of play? Games where you could ask something like "here's a fantastic problem, how would you use what you yourself know to solve it," I mean.

ProfessorCirno posted:

The real trick is to go full escapist fantasy. Stat some cool hero types. At the start of the game, you play yourselves. Then A Thing Happens and you become those cool hero types (while still also being yourselves).

Pretty much this. My group has played crossovers in these systems that I can recall: Champions, Villains & Vigilantes, Homebrew System Based On Heroclix(!), 3rd Edition, Call of Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, and uhh I think they played a brief Rotted Capes crossover since I moved (edit: I was reminded to add Jumpers and Fuzzy Hero). I am not going to say that there is a system in there that would necessarily change any of the doubters' minds about the concept, but surely either a superhero system or Call of Cthulhu, depending, would appeal--where you can instantly stop being yourself and be Mythical Yourself or where you are going to die no matter what kind of character you are, so why not be you?

The thing that I feel people overlook for the appeal of crossover games is the instant character backstory interconnectedness--you do not have to force a reason for your characters to know each other, or try to figure out why you would work as a team, or be annoyed that someone else is obviously playing the "huge secret background" character. You start from a position of truly knowing and appreciating the other "characters" in the group, and it is fascinating how many directions that can go depending on the feel of the campaign. The same two guys who were basically the inseparable compatible superhero team in Villains & Vigilantes were basically at each other's throats all the time in Call of Cthulhu, all because one of them played up his natural disdain for technology and the other one played up his natural obsession with technology and it became a beautiful battle of hyperparaoia versus normal paranoia. nobody is reading this dude stop

Dr. Quarex fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Dec 9, 2014

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 05:07

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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Alien Rope Burn posted:

Well, another point is that some of us make have physical conditions that make, say, surviving through an apocalypse difficult or untenable. Not "oh, I'm out of shape and don't have firing calluses", but more "well, without modern medicine aiding my condition, my timer starts... now." Obviously that can be ignored or worked around to an extent, and that may be the least of one's issues in a disaster, but there are problems with self-play that can be unique to playing oneself, or that might hit too close to home. Then, does one self-idealize to ignore that issue or remain true?

I don't have an answer, and obviously the situation would be different if everybody becomes psychics or the like, but it's something to consider regarding self-play games, especially if they're being published.

That is such a good point that I feel suitably ignorant for not considering that. I can hardly blame anyone for not really wanting to have an elaborate fantasy riff on something (s)he does not appreciate in real life. We have had discussions about where to draw the lines with personal things--we do not have anyone who, say, needs insulin or is in a wheelchair, but we are careful with some of the standard RPG tropes; I do not think anyone has ever had a family member killed off "on-screen," as it were, as that would just sort of leave you with the dilemma of either role-playing that accurately or hand-waving it and saying "O.K. I spend several weeks crying most of the day, moving on." Even in games where we were still on "Earth" it has been a touchy subject since obviously everyone immediately tries to see if their families are safe first, so then you pretty much either say "yes, there they are, awesome" or "hmm, no sign of them, but certainly no bodies or anything, nope!"

The only role-playing supplement I ever planned to actually write was sort of inbetween Fantasy Flight Games' "Zombie Apocalypse" and "Wrath of the Gods" releases, as I had great success running games with "turns out many of your friends and acquaintances have been sleeper agents of a cult for years" as a hook, but obviously even if it needed to be written before it certainly does not need to be now.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 05:39

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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Kai Tave posted:

Let alone the fact that my first reaction to "you're sitting around the gaming table when suddenly you hear an explosion nearby! What do you do?" would, in all likelihood, be "look outside the window to see what's going on, maybe call 911," not "band together with my gaming group and form a mystery solving team," and I'm pretty sure that holds true for the people I've gamed with over the years as well. Which means even sans superpowers the premise of these scenarios seems to hinge on you playing "yourself," but a "yourself" that responds to things in Default RPG Protagonist mode instead of, y'know, how you'd actually react to horrifying disasters and apocalypse scenarios.

I know this topic has run its course since I remembered to come back here, but I wanted to say that this always comes up if your group is being honest with what they would actually do--so either 911 is jammed and you ramp up reasons for people to stop hiding and go investigating until one takes, or the police/ambulance response unit becomes the first victims of whatever is going on in order to show the party that poo poo JUST GOT REAL. Or, I suppose, you just let them stay and hide forever! Haha.

Mormon Star Wars posted:

s t a t y o u r s e l f a n d f a c e t o b l o o d s h e d

Basically this

clockworkjoe posted:

so like this? http://viridiancitypokecenter.tumblr.com/

Also I know thinking up "gritty Pok�mon reboot" is an idea that has likely occurred to many over the years, but my friends and I are all sad that this exists now because we had plotted out at least a couple of episodes of something very similar and clearly should have made it first. With our collective 0.7 people who are motivated and skilled enough to draw anything.

ALSO WHY DOES THIS PROPOSED MAP/HANDOUT/ACCOUTREMENTS/PARAPHERNALIA THREAD NOT EXIST YET

# ¿ Dec 12, 2014 02:49

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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Ugh, gross. Sorry you had and undoubtedly have to deal with that.

That is another thing I have never encountered, and it is an obvious potential hindrance to enjoying "play yourself" games. drat. Jerks ruin games in so many ways.

Most of our crossover games start by heading the intelligence debate off at the pass, saying "O.K. great you all have (higher than average) Intelligence and nobody can change it until the game gets underway," haha. Though I am surprised you encountered that problem with Wisdom, as most of our group agreed they would be below average at best, haha. I mean, we ARE choosing to pretend to be ourselves but with magic powers instead of (insert productive non-nerdy pastime here).

A couple of my old group have been trying to get me to run a play-yourself game at Gen-Con for a few years, maybe I will finally do that next year and beg for Goon Attendance. Goontendance. Goontendo

# ¿ Dec 13, 2014 04:16

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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Kai Tave posted:

It's not even a failure of simulation in and of itself, like a game that tacks on crunchy and fiddly rule after rule to account for every possible situation until you end up with GURPS by way of Hybrid and things become an unusable mess, it's a failure of the writers to actually stick to what they want their own guidelines to be, i.e. "A rating of 2 is average" and then giving Joe Beat Cop 4 dots in everything (as was the case in the nWoD's core rulebook, for example).

You would think this means it would be the easiest thing to do it right ... using BAYESIAN INFERENCE you start with the numbers/dots/donuts that you want characters to use to represent their innate characteristics/abilities/knowledges/brainpool/arm-movement/whatever, then you start playing the game, and when you discover your numbers make it impossible for an average person to do things that average people do all the time, you either raise the "average" number or change how the system works. Then you repeat until something makes sense.

But then again, as ProfessorCirno basically just said, "or you could not try to have them unnecessarily try to mirror to real life in the first place and solve that problem."

# ¿ Dec 13, 2014 20:40

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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Mormon Star Wars posted:

Just think, we could have had a Neuromancer RPG if only the designers had been able to come up with a quasi-element plane of krill and poo poo.

http://youtu.be/owZx2zNlyng

Also everyone would love a Bad Gamemasters thread, but I imagine most of those stories go on the Notable Gaming Experiences thread.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2014 23:51

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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It really is insane to think about the final antecedents of Dungeons & Dragons, and how in a lot of ways things like Dave Arneson's Blackmoor campaign pretty much were rules-light free-form storygames complete with important prop usage (I mean, poo poo, they had a newsletter). Then Gary Gygax was like "you know it would be cool if anyone but you actually knew HOW to run this game" and codified things. And for as much as his games did not reflect it, he did seem pretty ardently in favor of his own proclamation that if you do not like a rule you should just toss it or make a new one. HE WAS THE MOST CHILLAX GAMING BRO

sometimes

# ¿ Dec 16, 2014 03:41

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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WordMercenary posted:

Most videogame devs haven't actually heard of any modern games at all. I once got to ask Chris Avellone what he played, and the answer was basically just 2e and Ars Magicka. The only storygamey game he seemed familiar with was Mouseguard.

Well, he has certainly heard of at least one modern game; when I was talking to him about gaming at the Wasteland 2 release party :smug:

he mentioned how much he loves the frequent games of Numenera he gets to play (I assume with other people at Obsidian Entertainment, not just for his own amusement). I am sure I can imagine the reaction in this subforum to that, though.

Kai Tave posted:

I can't imagine that whoever it was that was churning out all those lovely Avalanche Press pseudo-historical d20 sourcebooks with stripperiffic cover art went into that going "yes, this is the culmination of all my game design aspirations, my heart and soul is being poured into this."

I am utterly shocked that I never saw any of these back in my D20 IS AWESOME days. They really are as bad as you made them sound!

Also for as much as D20 seemed to sink the gaming universe from like 2005-2008, I still wish it were possible to ever live in as exciting a TIME FOR GAMING again as the first few years of D20. It was probably the last time actual newly-released physical books were by and large a better solution to a problem than the Internet!

Mormon Star Wars posted:

At least the best character type, Erudite Necromancer, could get night vision amulets pretty quickly.

I would have agreed up until they allowed Erudites to be Shadow Knights, then I enjoyed my ultra-sophisticated necromantic murder machine. Well, until level ~12, when all MMORPGs get boring.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2014 18:20

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

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PuttyKnife, have you told your story somewhere? Downward spiral to homelessness plus having the money to afford $10,000 on gaming in one year sounds like a pretty interesting tale.

Also I enjoyed reading this Ethan Gilsdorf 5th Edition piece and seeing that 4th Edition will apparently always be remembered by history as "the video-game one."

# ¿ Dec 28, 2014 01:11

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 07:46

Dr. Quarex: Apr 18, 2003; I'M A BIG DORK WHO POSTS TOO MUCH ABOUT CONVENTIONS LOOK AT THIS

TOVA TOVA TOVA

moths posted:

Listen Mac, you ain't the new bee stomper in the Big Flippy without Duke Suzi Knifetongue's say-so, so I'll lay it out in the vaguest terms possibly.

Hahahahahahahahahaha

I did not realize I had repressed memories of picking up a Vampire Clanbook at my local gaming store in the 1990s, reading a paragraph on the way to the counter to buy them, and then putting them back as a result of reading a paragraph. That I did this more than once is even more amazing.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2014 19:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG December Chat Thread: And Gygax bless us, every one.