"Everything is problematic" - McGill activist's story about deradicalizing

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "Everything is problematic" - McGill activist's story about deradicalizing

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

This particular brand of politics begins with good intentions and noble causes, but metastasizes into a nightmare.

quote:

High on their own supply, activists in these organizing circles end up developing a crusader mentality: an extreme self-righteousness based on the conviction that they are doing the secular equivalent of God�s work. It isn�t about ego or elevating oneself. In fact, the activists I knew and I tended to denigrate ourselves more than anything. It wasn�t about us, it was about the desperately needed work we were doing, it was about the people we were trying to help. The danger of the crusader mentality is that it turns the world in a battle between good and evil. Actions that would otherwise seem extreme and crazy become natural and expected. I didn�t think twice about doing a lot of things I would never do today.

That sounds familiar.

http://gawker.com/psycho-frames-ex-with-fake-racist-facebook-posts-1665418226

Nutshell is that there's a Tumblr focused on outing racists on social media, and encouraging online crowd-shaming to get them fired from their jobs. Then a vindictive man creates a fake Facebook profile of his ex-girlfriend and submits it to the activists. They harass her employers. A lot of people stopped after learning it was a set-up, but of course, not everyone got the message. And the original mistake means that those faked images are going to show up on Google whenever anyone searches her name, from now on.

That's what the crusader mentality produces. This stuff also happens because no one in these spaces are really accountable to anyone else except the panicky mob, and the mob isn't trustworthy and it certainly isn't accountable to itself. If it was this easy to unleash a witchhunt based on easily fabricated images, then you can imagine political opponents of the left using similar tactics as a weapon in the future; like right-wing activists igniting left-wing mobs as a means to discredit them and attack their own. But they really don't even need to because the Tumblr activists discredit themselves.

icantfindaname posted:

Well the circular firing squads and ideological purges definitely hurt the left's ability to effect change, but I don't think you can make value judgements about it, IE activists should shut up and take what they can get. That might very well be the best option for them, but still

There's a difference between right and wrong. Can we at least agree on that? One might say that it's wrong to engage in circular firing squads and ideological purges. I mean, as an ideological praxis with the stated goal of expanding human freedom, it's a quite a recipe for some pretty monstrous repression. This is the practical end-result of a not-insignificant chunk of the radical left.

Anyways, I think it's an excellent piece and has a lot in common with cult deradicalization. But slippier than a lot of cults.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:01 on Dec 3, 2014

# ¿ Dec 3, 2014 09:33

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 07:34

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woes_of_the_Pharisees

# ¿ Dec 4, 2014 09:07

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Minarchist posted:

Tumblr leftism is really creepy and seeing the poo poo they do in the name of "justice" is outright disturbing. I'm okay with helping out institutionally disenfranchised people (despite my username im more of a syndicalist/mutualist) but the hashtag crowd and "check your privilege" sorts really irk me since they operate in a super authoritarian fashion and brook no dissent from the established curriculum of "right" thinking.

This /pol/ post kind of sums up what I think of the SJW crowd:

I'm really worried about my little cousin, she's 12 and is already into self harm, homestuck, and ponies and is on the internet ALL DAY and its a matter of time before she finds these people and I don't want her growing up with that kind of toxic mindset

This is pretty much how I feel about it too, but I also tend to find mainstream political organizations creepy. Maybe you won't get purged, but there's definitely group-enforcing behavior mechanisms. I'm really not much of a joiner. Basically, I think of organized politics like organized religion. A mainline Protestant or Catholic organization is probably better than a UFO cult, but count me out in either case.

ryonguy posted:

Yeah, when people are talking about "all whites are racist" it means "whites are privileged and need to be made aware of that fact because most don't realize it". Unless you got some sort of PC education camp in mind for that, that's not really separatism or genocide. Racists can change.

It's worth asking whether individual white people being aware of their privilege has ever actually changed anything ever. Like in my uber-progressive city the white people trip over themselves to tell people how they're aware of their privilege, but I haven't seen that effect the behavior of the city's police department. The system is really indifferent to white liberals' own moral and psychological turmoil about their racism and privilege. Really, the system and the institutions couldn't care less. And the ironic thing is this city is the whitest major city in the state and the black population is falling off a cliff. They're not moving to a city where the whites are more aware of their privilege. Though I suppose being aware of it is appreciated.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Dec 5, 2014

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 05:32

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

So is it important to identify privilege or not?

It doesn't matter.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 05:54

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Minarchist posted:

Most of /pol/ is poo poo but RadFems and the modern college leftist outrage mentality are seriously messed up. Hey there's poor people everywhere with no political power why not help them out a bit in tangible ways instead of raging against the patriarchy or white oppression on twitter?

One way of spotting privilege is to find the people who think their own personal psychological journey through their privilege and racism will change the way the United States government and police forces actually behave.

SedanChair posted:

I find that people who say that could probably get through their lives without it mattering to them. However, that's a rather selfish way to live.

Oh, I mean I'm not exactly manning the barricades, but I just don't think my own feelings vis-a-vis black people and whether I've checked my privilege this morning has much of an effect (read: any) on whether the cops shoot a teenager to death tomorrow.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Dec 5, 2014

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 05:56

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Politics is about the distribution of power. (Call it privilege, if you want.) Who's got it, and who doesn't. That's pretty much it. So let's say that people holding the power are aware of their power. That means what? A politics focused on that alone will do nothing.

I would also wonder how people in power use their "awareness" to reinforce their standing in the hierarchy. Like a major corporation using Third World charity to sell a product that helps reinforce a system of global poverty. That's what all this privilege-checking reminds me of.

Not to indict people who are really trying to change things. But wearing your privilege-checking on your sleeve is just useless.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:06

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

Just off the top of my head, abolitionism, ending Jim Crow, women's suffrage, the Chicano movement and LGBT rights.

My head is exploding. The LGBT movement succeeded because heterosexuals checked their privilege? Baloney.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:10

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

Really? Why do you think all those straight people are voting for gay marriage now?

Because gay people built their own communities, stood up for themselves, came out of the closet, and built a political power base. Because we learned to respect ourselves.

This had the effect of changing straight people's feelings, but that was the natural consequence of a shift in material circumstances.

We didn't tell straight people not to get married, or anything. Like "turn in your privilege."

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:16

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Rent-A-Cop posted:

I have affluenza and you're triggering me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFBOQzSk14c

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:27

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

Casimir Radon posted:

Not being completely hostile towards everyone else certainly helped.

I mean say what you will about the Human Rights Campaign, but it's been pretty effective. They see politics as a power game and mobilize to take a share of it. And once you have that...

But it's also looking at people and not demanding they change. It's "we want our rights and we want to not be bothered." If you want to check your privilege or whatever, that's all on you. You're really missing out, is all, because we're having a great time being ourselves. And if someone says "I don't morally agree but I don't think we should deny them their rights" then that's okay as well. Here's where you can contribute a donation. As long as you're not actively oppressing us, then there's no real issue. A quiet surrender is an option.

But a politics of incessant privilege checking would condemn those people. You can't simply surrender. You have to be mouthing all the same slogans and marching in lockstep. And be politicized in all aspects of your life. And now you can't be a good ally because you're heterosexual! So out you go! "Oh God, I'm so sorry. Thank you for calling me out..." It's ridiculous.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Dec 5, 2014

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 06:33

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

Yeah, they really need to check their privilege.

And then, magically across the land, there was no more racism.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 08:34

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

You know what isn't magical? Simpletons bitching about poo poo being hard.

Because poo poo *is* hard, and privilege-checking is easy, which is why white people love to do it. Changing structural systems of power is hard. Ending aggressive, militarized policing is hard. Ending the War on Drugs is hard. Closing down the prisons is hard.

Do the police, drug enforcers, arms industries and prison wardens, and the wealthy political lobbies that push these policies care one iota whether white people are aware of their privilege? :mmmhmm:

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 08:52

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

^ Yup.

But being hidebound when it comes to bad opinions isn't a phenomenon exclusive to the right. Really, good luck convincing any adult anywhere that they're wrong about anything. People have their guns and they're sticking to them, left or right. And there's plenty examples of left-wing ideas that proved to be huge disasters that got retroactively written out or justified post-hoc.

"It's not my job to educate you; educate yourself" is one of those statements that almost gets it, but falls just short. Education as a political strategy is always doomed to fail. Because look, homies: politics isn't about education, it's about the distribution and deployment of power: who's got it, and who doesn't. So the strategy should be about building power, and using power. And really changing the material circumstances in which people live. You change the circumstances, and people's opinions change with it.

Basically, respect is more important than love, and people respect power. I mean, what would Lenin say? Or Machiavelli?

The gay rights movement is often cited, because it's been successful. But I don't think the strategy was ever to convince homophobes to start loving gay people. I think the network-building, fundraising resources (money $$$ counts), deploying those resources toward attainable political objectives, and living one's life fearlessly had more of an effect. Meaning the gay movement built a political power base. They changed the circumstances in which people live. Very few people were convinced through reasoned argument not to hate gay people, it was their friends or family members coming out. The circumstances changed. Families changed. (Talking about families is a very un-left-wing thing to do. But that's how it happened.)

That might sound like a bunch of vague buzzwords, but I don't think it's any more vague or buzzwordy than what passes for a lot of left-wing analysis.

Strudel Man posted:

Really, I think a lot of the left has entirely given up on changing anyone's opinions. Current political opponents are misogynistic, racist oppressors who have to die for anything to change.

It's easy to overstate generational progress. It's the most overrated of political loyalties. Because the "millenial" generation has no shortage of people who are willing to go to bat for the political right. And it wasn't as if they magically came out of the womb with more tolerant opinions. I remember being a gay later-stage millenial in 2004 when the gay marriage bans swept through the states; no one in my cohort gave a poo poo. The more pronounced changes in social views, at least in my part of the country, came a little bit later. And it's still incomplete.

BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 01:05 on Dec 10, 2014

# ¿ Dec 10, 2014 00:53

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# ¿ May 11, 2024 07:34

BrutalistMcDonalds: Oct 4, 2012; Lipstick Apathy

SedanChair posted:

Checking people's privilege

He checked his privilege

That's funny, because by the standards of the people we're discussing, the Group Commander would likely never be able to check his privilege to their satisfaction.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2014 06:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "Everything is problematic" - McGill activist's story about deradicalizing