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You don't need to be de-radicalized to be tolerant. That's a fallacy.
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Dec 3, 2014 07:16
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You guys realize that LGBT and race are more than just issues for the left, right? Why in the absolute gently caress would anyone think that turning class struggle into OWS would be a good idea? Have you guys never been to Portland?
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Dec 8, 2014 03:01
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Space Whale posted:Portland is just a place to get laid, drink, eat, and a setting for parts of "Jail" episodes, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7cwWegXCU Ignore the comments
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Dec 8, 2014 03:26
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Quit being pedantic. This poo poo is precisely why OWS failed. Maybe you guys should work on core ideology instead of tripping over yourselves whenever race or feminism is brought up. This is not Tumblr. e: phoneposting Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 22:02
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If you are not up for LF posting and class warfare, don't be a socialist. There was no mandate by anyone that socialism being this utopian bullshit when inequality is a real loving problem that should be addressed on its own.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:10
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Can everyone please fill out their respective hurt feelings report and shut the gently caress up? Everyone who tries force this poo poo needs to go tweet w/ Justine.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:17
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Zeitgueist posted:GUYS GUYS not allowing cool rebel types to drop racial slurs is why Occupy failed, wrap it revolutionailures Deal with it you big baby. He did say something offensive. That does not mean you get to spend 5 pages talking about how outraged you are about it. Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 22:21
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Who What Now posted:W-we were just trolling him, guys! The premise of offensive language is that someone has to be offended by it. You guys are playing standins for the offended party. That's equally laughable. And no one who has bothered to read it would interpret all of that as otherwise.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:37
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It's equally laughable to derail a thread and take things entirely out of context. I have a better plan to deal with people who say that poo poo: don't call them leftists. Ignore them. Marginalized them.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:42
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Mortley posted:Yeah, discussing politics online is kind of like democracy: it's godfuckingawful, and better than all the alternatives (i.e. boring and alienating your friends and/or never discussing politics). Literally the best thing that could happen to the left is if it's organization became autocratic in a sense that someone representative of its core goal and forced everyone either to fall in line kick out the non believers. Banning Tumblr and privilege theory in general from leftist social discourse would also help.cehere we're going doesn't require distinction about race or gender.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:28
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Or it could be that those groups are the makeup of every successful socialist movement in the last two centuries. Do you think the Bolshevicks were open to policital discourse? I disagree with Zizek's argument that you can't go from revolutionary violence to post revolutionary politics. All you have to do is purge the revolutionaries. People can't be full time leftists. I think that's consequently why they bring intangible poo poo in to poison the well without any regard for its harmful effects. A dedicated leader could be that full time leftist.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:36
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Zeitgueist posted:Where did I say you can't have those groups in leftism? I'm saying that folks who whine about "privilege" are almost always doing so with a specific agenda. I have an agenda alright. I think almost everyone on Tumblr is insecure and mentally ill. Their political alignment is based solely on projecting those insecurities.
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Dec 8, 2014 23:52
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Zeitgueist posted:A whole lot of tumblrs are just folks posting porn pictures. You're using Tumblr as a codeword. Alright, I can't say this any other way. There's no real nice way to say it. There's going to be backlash for that. You don't have to agree with it. It's entirely an opinion. Here it goes. I think modern feminists, privilege, and LGBT activists should be banned from leftist discourse. Specifically, the internet and neb-activist kind that poo poo up said website above and are the source of wherever mockery GBS is willing to give them. I think they're wholly toxic in their creation. You're free to join those groups. You're free to exist within those groups and discourse within those groups. You're even free to come into leftist activism as being self identified as any of those groups. You're not free to discuss anything other than leftism within the leftist movement. It's not discrimination. It's not spite. It's good sense, because anyone with good sense would've recognized that the feel good bullshit that they bring to the table entirely conflicts with core leftism in every possible way. It cannot afford to make the distinctions that these people are making.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:28
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Who What Now posted:Let me help you with this. Those "new wave feminists" and "SJWS" and all that? These people you're talking about don't actually exist in the real world outside of the Internet. You are all worked up over a boogeyman chariacture that you've convinced yourself is lurking around every corner and within every shadow. They exist. I just posted a video of them in Portland a few pages back, doing exactly what I said they'd do. Zeitgueist posted:I'm gonna go ahead and stop taking you seriously now. Blanket equality also means blanket message. There can be no distinctions. I gave you my reasons. That's the best I can do.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:41
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Zeitgueist posted:Yes, I get it, when people talk about huge swathes of groups they're always talking about those types, because otherwise they might come off as being a piece of poo poo. But will you complain about being called an rear end in a top hat for equating what I said with racism? Where do you come up with this poo poo? You just read the first loving sentence and went on a tangent. If you think these ideologies are wholly compatible, then put out some reasons why. I said they were incompatible.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:50
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Who What Now posted:They exist in the same way that people scamming welfare exist. It's not significant. And if you obsess over them and go out of your way to only look for them then of course it's all you're going to find. It's like saying "I typed 'brown dog' into google and it's all brown dogs! Where are the black dogs?" At first it was "they don't exist", then "they don't exist outside they internet", and then it was "they exist but don't matter". Zeitgueist posted:You're not complaining about an ideology, you're complaining about a caricature that exists, at best, at a fringe that's even tinier than the fringe that is "leftist activism". It doesn't make any of these people less awful, or any of your defense of them less contemptible. You cannot simultaneously decry blanket message when applying blanket defense for that special snowflake of an ideology you're trying to protect. If you cannot make that dissimilarity, if you're not willing to make that dissimilarity, then leftism is doomed. Virtually every publication I read on the failures of OWS have quickly pointed to its incoherent bullshit it pedaled as it went. It'll be OWS every single time. It'll be feel good bullshit against the powers that be who are quite willing and able to use violence to keep their interest. None of those ideologies I described are core leftist tenants. You don't have to be a leftist to pursue any of those agendas. You can pursue those agendas entirely within context within the already existing system. It's like calling Democrats leftist. At some point, people are going to think you're absurd. The fact that you are bringing this into question makes me believe that you believe it's debatable that class alone isn't good enough of an issue.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:10
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Zeitgueist posted:You're attempting to conflate a caricature of people you want to exist with a movement. The people you are trying to say exist largely do not, they are a caricature, which is why I brought up racism and welfare queens, and PC Police. This is the same stupid argument retread with different details. I think any serious leftist fears, deep down, that there may be a social issue that the capitalists can use to divide them. History conflates with this narrative. Zeitgueist posted:Some people with some of the aspects that you are complaining out for sure exist. No academic feminist or notable activist has ever said "all hetero sex is rape" that I know of, but I'm sure some Freshman Woman's Studies kid has said that unironically. No doubt. It's also not a big deal. I'll reiterate: I don't disagree with feminism. I just don't think it holds a place in leftism. Zeitgueist posted:Welfare Queens don't exist as Reagan described, and while some folks do defraud public services, it's usually very small in both severity and incidence. Reagan knew what he was pitching, it was part of his long history of coded racism. Would that make my argument about divisiveness any less? Zeitgueist posted:Class isn't enough, on it's own. It's never just class, it's a lot of things including class. I don't think that anything otherwise is anything but utopian. I have a particular distaste for utopianism. Zeitgueist posted:You're trying to say that this destroyed Occupy but that's a bullshit narrative, I can tell you for sure that one of the things seriously damaged Los Angeles was exactly what you're doing. The whites(who make up a tiny portion of the activist community out here) went about alienating every oppressed group there is, and that's not even including RCP's assholes. And yes, a common refrain was "It's about class, stop bringing up race" in response to racism. Was it the white protestors or what the police did to them? I'm pretty sure the police was going to do what the police was going to do no matter what, because they also have something to lose. I've better idea than censorship. All you have to do is just show them what leftists do/did. Show what POUM did, show what the Bolshevicks did, show what FARC, show what the Red Army did, and what other revolutionary groups did. That alone would scare off the people who shouldn't be there. I think leftism failed because leftists fail to reconcile with its fairly violent past. Leftist politics is revolutionary politics. It's that silver bullet that simply cannot be dodged.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:33
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Who What Now posted:As you become increasingly pedantic so must I. Weird how that is, huh? Pedantic posting forum. Zeitgueist posted:Yes why would gender equality have anything to do with a movement for social equality. I don't think leftists are advocated for social equality. Equality, by any leftist definition, should be a base term that applies solely to distinction in class. The best messaging the left can offer is the most literal pre-Bolshevik interpretation where it's absolutely impossible to get caught up in impalpable goals that have little or nothing to do with leftism in general. Who What Now posted:It doesn't have to just one. There's a bunch of reasons why LA somehow is a huge city without a functional Occupy group still in existence(sections/suburbs still do, but not LA proper), one of them is poo poo that I just talked about. I'm honestly not sure where you're going with this other than reciprocating what I've already said. Could you elaborate? The Insect Court posted:The reality is that so much of "white privilege" or "male privilege" is said to be the sort of thing that no decent human being would really object to losing. Dismantling class privilege means attacking a system which provides the bourgeoisie with great material rewards, which is why self-described leftists love to bleat about how they'd have no problem with giving up the "privilege to commit sexual violence with relative impunity"(well, most of them wouldn't, there are a few exceptions...) but hate to talk about giving up their far more concrete and substantial class privilege. Dismantling class privilege makes you less lovely of a human being, TIC. Nor does being in the class happy. America is one of the wealthiest countries in the world yet it's full of the most divisive, miserable human beings on the planet. Anything the left does that's coherent can only be a net positive for gay rights activists and feminist groups since, at worst, it'll scare the government into making concessions. What loving rock were you living under when you missed out on any historical context from the Gilded Age or the First Red Scare?
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Dec 9, 2014 06:32
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Foma posted:Do people want to debate and discuss or is the left stuck in insular groups and who laugh, point, and get offended. Nobody likes an irate person who sticks to their core ideology. I'm definitely not the exception. D&D is still a good place, and is a lot better than just browsing news pages all day. That said, bring back LF. I want to see England Sucks do effort post threads kyon style.
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Dec 9, 2014 06:52
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tsa posted:Y-You're just as bad as them, guys! This is such a lovely cop out argument. Maybe next time you can try arguing with us instead of trying to shame us into submission for no good loving reason. Political instability and political insolvency are not the products of radicalism. They are the result of decades of pushing unsustainable policy, milquetoast reform, and compromise. The worst thing, literally the worst thing, that could ever happen is that the pendulum between stability and violent revolution stops swinging.
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Dec 9, 2014 07:46
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