"Everything is problematic" - McGill activist's story about deradicalizing

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "Everything is problematic" - McGill activist's story about deradicalizing

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

This reads more like a critique of 'privilege theory' that internet left-liberals love rather than a critique of left-radicalism. Which is fine because privilege theory is really bad for guiding activism and useless as analytic tool

# ¿ Dec 3, 2014 18:47

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 21:25

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

[The founding document of Privilege theory] "Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" was first written in 1989 and published in 1990. that means that privilege theory as a distinct theory (and all the language, terminology, and general strategies that accompany it) is about 25 years old. it is more recent than the Civil Rights Movement, the Black Power Movement, both First and Second Wave Feminism, and the Stonewall Riots.

It is tempting to think that critiquing privilege theory is somehow damaging to feminist, anti-racist, anti-homophobic movements. but people struggled and fought long before the words "check your privilege" were ever uttered. this is a theory that took root in the early 90's, spread throughout academia, and later to the Internet. it is not an inherent (nor, i would argue, a necessary) part of any struggle.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2014 19:54

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

Privilege theory is pretty drat unmarxist so its a mystery to me that the 'radical left' is now mostly defined by it instead of rejecting it

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 08:35

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

Sharkie posted:

So you're saying white privilege doesn't exist or what exactly? Do you seriously believe that black people or gay people or women should set aside the issues that concern exclusively them in order to recognize that really, it's about class, and concerns about racism/homophobia are atomizing?

These issues exist but privilege theory go about them in a unproductive, individualistic way; see the obsession with personal identity and individual states of being found in 'SJWs'.

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 08:29

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

katlington posted:

Amateurs using rulers to measure their microdicks doesnt prove that math is useless.

Good ideas should be able to survive vulgarization, besides, it is hardly coincidence that so many 'sjw's and young activists 'misapply' privilege theory in precisely the same way. At the heart of privilege theory is the idea that privilege could only be revealed to the privileged individuals by listening to the personal experience of the unprivileged individuals - which, being subjective and easily distorted by memory, perspective and socialization, is not a good carrier of truth - and this all works towards a nebulous end, as the best those privileged could do upon realizing their privilege is to be more self-aware and try to check personally oppressive behavior, since them being 'white male' or whatever could never dissociate themselves from their role as oppressors. It's not a good theory and certainly not a good leading light for the left.

goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 09:07 on Dec 7, 2014

# ¿ Dec 7, 2014 09:05

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

Sharkie posted:

If your leftist movement doesn't address the issues that are faced specifically by women, LGBT people, and minorities, it's poo poo.

Number Two Stunna posted:

If your leftist movement doesn't address class, it's poo poo.

The two aren't and shouldn't have to be mutually exclusive, but I think we can all agree that privilege theory and intersectionality, with their individual focus and tendency of degenerating into divisive moralism, are bad guides to either struggle.

goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Dec 8, 2014

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 02:56

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

katlington posted:

I don't know what you're talking about but it's not privilege theory.

e: there seems to be a lot of hand wringing in this thread about privilege meaning you have to this or have to that and it reminds me of people who are ignorant of evolution believing that evolution prescribes nihilism.

Care to explain what it is, then, and from whence you drew your definition from? I'll directly quote Peggy Mcintosh, generally considered the founding stalwart and most influential proponent of privilege theory:

White Privilege and Male Privilege: A Personal Account of Coming to See Correspondences Through Work in Women's Studies, 1988 posted:

<...>I think whites are carefully taught not to recognize white privilege, as males are taught not to recognize male privilege. So I have begun in an untutored way to ask what it is like to have white privilege. I have come to see white privilege as an invisible package of unearned assets that I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was "meant" to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, codebooks, visas, clothes, tools , and blank checks.

Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in women's studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, "having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?"

After I realized the extent to which men work from a base of unacknowledged privilege, I understood that much of their oppressiveness was unconscious. Then I remembered the frequent charges from women of color that white women whom they encounter are oppressive. I began to understand why we are just seen as oppressive, even when we don't see ourselves that way. I began to count the ways in which I enjoy unearned skin privilege and have been conditioned into oblivion about its existence.

<...>
In addition, since race and sex are not the only advantaging systems at work, we need similarly to examine the daily experience of having age advantage, or ethnic advantage, or physical ability, or advantage related to nationality, religion or sexual orientation.
<...>

Though systemic change takes many decades, there are pressing questions for me and I imagine for some others like me if we raise our daily consciousness on the perquisites of being light-skinned. What will we do with such knowledge? As we know from watching men, it is an open question whether we will chose to use unearned advantage to weaken hidden systems of advantage, and whether we will use any of our arbitrarily-awarded power to try to reconstruct power systems on a broader base.

goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 07:38 on Dec 8, 2014

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 07:10

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

katlington posted:

It doesn't say you can only learn about it by listening to personal anecdotes from somebody nor does it say you're forever cursed by your whiteness or w/e

These are implicit in the text, which conceptualizes privilege in individual terms and equates overcoming systemic racism with individual white people realizing and coming to terms with their white privilege. See: ''Describing white privilege makes one newly accountable. As we in Women�s Studies work to reveal male privilege and ask men to give up some of their power, so one who writes about having white privilege must ask, �Having described it, what will I do to lessen or end it?' and 'In addition, since race and sex are not the only advantaging systems at work, we need similarly to examine the daily experience of having age advantage, or ethnic advantage, or physical ability, or advantage related to nationality, religion or sexual orientation.'
Since privileges are conferred on the basis of immutable traits like race, gender and sexuality, and since privileges manifest mostly in the form of unconscious bias, it follows that renouncing privilege is impossible, since you cannot choose to stop being the beneficiary of, say, racism if you're white. This is accepted amongst most academic privilege theorists.

Michael Kimmel, 'Privilege, A Reader' posted:

Occasionally, someone is moved by that guilt to attempt to renounce his or her privilege.[..] Though noble in their intention, however, this posture of guilty self-negation cannot be privileged people's final destination as we come to understand how we are privileged by race, class, gender, and sexuality. Refusing to be men, white, or straight does neither the privileged nor the unprivileged much good. One can no more renounce privilege than one can stop breathing, It is in the air we breathe.

Again, since you seem to have your own idea of what Privilege theory really meant, I and as I am sure others in the thread would be curious to hear it.

quote:

nor does it talk about any "end goals" of privilege.

I know! That's precisely the problem! Privilege theory prescribes no goal nor plan to combat inequality systematically. It is absolutely useless and actively harmful to unity and cohesion.

goatse.cx fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Dec 8, 2014

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 08:19

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

Zeitgueist posted:

but was this an accurate summary?

Exaggerated but people really haven't raised any convincing defense of privilege theory so far itt.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 21:22

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

Zeitgueist posted:

Well the concept of privilege is fairly sound as a description of the invisible societal/insitutional racism and how it affects people of different background in different ways, but it doesn't offer a lot of explanation or solutions in and of itself and falls short of being a theory because of that.

Where people go really wrong with it is using it to try explain the concepts to people who deny the existence or extent of bigotry. You can't talk about privilege meaningfully to someone who doesn't already accept the concept, and that's the flaw. You'll be more effective by simply talking about bigotry and how it exists.

Of course, most of the time folks arguing against privilege theory are people who deny the existence of institutional bigotry. So while there's definitely major problems from a sociology standpoint with privilege, it's almost never what is actually being argued.

Agreed on most points. Though I'd like to point out some of the most vociferous critics of privilege theory are marxists/hard left.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 21:42

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

# ¿ Dec 8, 2014 23:02

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

This thread is going to some interesting places isn't it.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 00:31

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

Nevvy Z posted:

Does anyone have the study handy where people would, generally, rather have $50 and everyone else $20 than everyone have $70? And more importantly, is there any evidence that this can be applied to other things? Because that's a pretty obvious place where we can apply privilege theory. Poor whites still have white privilege, and they may want to keep it specifically because they enjoy having superiority where they can get it.

Well, not quite. According to privilege theory, most beneficiaries of privilege are actually unaware that they were privileged, since privileges are automatically bestowed by structural forces based on traits like race, gender, sexuality, etc, one does not choose to receive it. This is the reason why adherents of privilege theory make it their top most priority to 'make privilege visible' and the constant exhortations for people to 'check your privilege'. So what if white people were already fully aware of their advantaged state, and refuse to give it up? Privilege theory profers no answer to this. All it can offer us is the basic observations that men are advantaged over women, whites are advantaged over blacks, which are no at all useful or interesting. The important questions are, what led to the creation and maintenance of these structural inequality, and how do we fight them? Privilege theory simply do not help us to answer them.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 01:45

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 21:25

goatse.cx: Nov 21, 2013

SedanChair posted:

Checking people's privilege

He checked his privilege

You don't need an academic understanding of privilege to check it. Is that the problem? There are a bunch of different ways to approach it but they can frequently be seen as some form of checking privilege. That's why I referred to many struggle for social justice throughout history as proto-privilege theory in action.

That's absolutely ridiculous sedanchair.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2014 04:12

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > "Everything is problematic" - McGill activist's story about deradicalizing