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Welcome to the Iberpolitics thread, a thread which showcases the absolute worst in parliamentary politics this side of the Atlantic. Like other regional politics threads, here we will chronicle the continuing political developments of the Iberian countries: Spain and Portugal and Andorra (actually, gently caress Andorra and their tax haven bullshit). Spain is a parliamentary democracy, and a relatively new one at that. Spain transitioned out of the Franco dictatorship in 1978, yet many will tell you that the process is still ongoing. Some backstory: Before Franco, in which Spain goes from empire to shithole  what spaniards looked like before penelope cruz Spain, once the greatest empire of the world, was turned into a economic and political backwater after Napoleon invaded the peninsula and set up his brother as king at the beginning of the 19th century. After Napoleon got kicked out, Spain lost its overseas empire and its main source of exploitable wealth. The 19th century was mostly a lot of back and forth between liberals and conservatives (looks like things haven't changed much amirite), one party winning power and changing a bunch of poo poo then the opposing party winning the following election and undoing said changes. So basically nothing happened in Spain in the 1800s other than some short lived revolutions, the First Spanish Republic, and illiterate peasants not giving a gently caress. At the beginning of the 20th century, after losing a war with America, staying out of World War 1, and a horrible flu epidemic, Republicans won the general election in 1931 and establish the Second Spanish Republic. All of the sudden, commie pinkos and black cat anarchists are the cool kids and dudes in black robes smelling like incense were no longer cool. Of course, this bothered the God botherers, who decided to rise up against the godless Republicans with the help of General Francisco Franco. The Spanish Civil War, or the majority of Spanish movies  a spanish movie that was marketed as "hosed up alice in wonderland" but was really 70% spanish civil war and 30% lewis carrol on acid If you want to know what happened during this time, just watch any random Spanish movie and, most likely, it'll be a movie set in this time period, and you'll get the general idea. The Nationalists, led by Franco, ground the Republicans down over the course of three years and took Madrid in 1939. The Nationalists had the help of the Italians and the Germans (both fascists), while the Republicans had help from the USSR and Mexico (lol). Lots of foreign brigades helped the Republicans too. Franco eventually won, solidified control over the country, and brought about decades of political repression and SEAT cars. Spain under Franco  "Some years ago Spain was badly ruled. There were gunfire in the streets and churches were burned. To stop all of this, Franco rose up in arms with the military and after three years of war he kicked the Fatherland's enemies out. The Spanish made Franco their leader or Caudillo and has gloriously governed Spain since 1936." In the beginning there were purges of unwanted elements, lots of exiles and whatnot. There was only one party, the Falange, and everyone had to be a member of it. No unions, no dissent, and you voted on whatever Franco wanted you to vote on. So it went for a while, until the inevitable creep of market liberalization and blah blah blah. Franco was worshiped as a totally awesome dude who freed the Spanish from rear end in a top hat foreign interlopers until he died in 1975. Democracy, or something like it  TITS AND LASERS AND COCAINE After Franco died, the son of the last Spanish king was invited back to Spain to rule. A constitution was passed via referendum, guaranteeing basic human rights and all that good stuff the West takes for granted. With this came an explosion in arts and culture since there wasn't a bunch of old stuffy dudes telling people what to publish. Basically, tits were everywhere in Spain, and the 80s are fondly remembered through a cocaine-laced haze. The 90s had a recession then things got progressively better until 2008. Spain in the now  the spanish dream: a ham in every household The construction industry boomed in the 2000s because the banks were giving out loans like crazy. Most were poo poo, since most normal people couldn't afford mortgages but they thought they could because good times were finally here in Spain. Eventually the bottom fell out like in the US and now there's lots of angry homeless people in Spain. There's even more jobless young people in their 30s still living with their parents and that also pisses them off. Austerity cuts have hit these folks hard and now there are populist movements trying to change the lovely two party system that has monopolized Spain since the transition to democracy (and arguably before that). With that said, let's talk Spanish politics. Spanish political parties  Partido Popular "we went to war in iraq then blamed the basques when al qaeda blew up our poo poo" Founded by some guy from Galicia, the PP call themselves center right but as of late they've been acting more like cartoon supervillains, trying to railroad legislation through Congress like abortion reform, education reform, and making it illegal to record policeman beating the poo poo out of you. Currently the governing party and personified by the President, Mariano Rajoy. Also currently embroiled by corruption scandal after corruption scandal.  Socialists "the last guy we made president looked like mr. bean" Democrats to the PP's Republicans, the PSOE likes to position themselves as the answer to the PP. Nominally center left, these guys haven't mounted much of an opposition to the PP in years and the political discourse between the two parties is turning into less about platforms and policies and more about "Whatever the other guys said, we're against that."  United Left "disparate parties of the left unite!" The IU is made up of leftists that got disillusioned with two party politics. The IU is a coalition of a bunch of different parties (communists, syndicalists, anarchists). Pretty cool dudes overall, like Julio Anguita (retired communist mayor of Cordoba for years), but largely ineffectual politics-wise on the national scale.  UPyD "we complain about everything" The old Socialist party, now new and improved with a neoliberal agenda. These guys are also pretty loving ineffectual since no one in the two main parties likes them, especially the PP since UPyD always likes calling out the PP for not being neoliberal enough.  Podemos "COMMUNIST BOLIVARIAN ISLAMOFASCIST CONSPIRACY" Born from the crucible of 15-M (Occupy Spain, more or less) and led by Pablo Iglesias, a political science professor turned GPS of the proletariat, Podemos won five seats in the EU election this year after only existing as a political party for three months. Party policies are crowd sourced, people vote on the policies proposed, and (magic!) a populist party platform emerges. The established political system is terrified of this long haired dude since Podemos can get enough momentum to spoil the party they've been having with public funds since the 19th century. Or nothing at all could happen, which is also a possibility considering how Spaniards don't give as much of a gently caress about democracy as before since they usually end up landless and fighting each other for poverty wages despite whichever system of government currently employed.
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Dec 4, 2014 20:23
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reserved for portugal
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Dec 4, 2014 20:24
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Awesome, thanks for making this thread. Do you think Podemos will be able to maintain their lead as the most popular party until the next election?
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Dec 5, 2014 05:24
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Awesome, thanks for making this thread. Do you think Podemos will be able to maintain their lead as the most popular party until the next election? No problem, now we have to get all the Portugoons in the EU thread over here. To answer your question, it's a probably with a big maybe. I know that doesn't make sense, so I will explain. First of all, it's difficult to actually gauge the citizens' reactions to Podemos due to how the Spanish media works. The Spanish media is highly biased, especially RTVE, which is basically Spanish public radio and television, but unlike NPR and PBS in the States, the directors and such get tossed out whenever the opposing party takes power. The last time the Socialists were in power (Zapatero aka Mr. Bean) RTVE was professional and informative as hell. Nowadays, with the PP dominating everything they directly can, they had a blanket ban up until very recently on anything Podemos on public television. So on Spanish public television, with all the news reports and talking head shows, no one was allowed to refer to Podemos by name, opting instead to refer to "movimientos populistas" (populist movements). Just let that sink in. How can their be political discussion and discourse in public forums when all of the participants (almost all members of established political parties) refuse to even mention the name of the upstart party that threatens the existence of the system that benefits them greatly? This is just one example of how the Spanish me4dia is manipulated, and there are many, many others, so it is difficult to accurately gauge how much momentum Podemos actually has. Luckily, in Spain there are election polls, and since elections are next year they've started cold-calling people asking what party they will vote for. In case you were wondering, during national elections (and EU elections for that matter), you don't vote for the guy in the suit, you vote for the party. The last one to come out was a month ago and it covered the month of October. Let's break it on down shall we?  This chart estimates (more or less) the result if snap elections were held in that respective month. The latest number indicate that PP would get the majority of the votes but by a pretty slim margin, while the Socialists get hit pretty hard since Podemos is leeching off leftists' votes. As you can see, Podemos first shows up in the July survey with 15.3% of the vote then jumps up to 22.5% in October, which is a pretty big gain with these sort of things. Some of those votes are coming from disillusioned leftists who usually vote Socialists or IU, with some folks who usually don't vote voting for Podemos.  This chart is how people responded "Who would you vote for?" Why are there two charts for what would be the same outcome, yet there are two different winners? Well, the elections are pretty far out there still, so there is still a sizable percentage (21.9%) of folks still undecided. Those votes could go in any direction depending on what happens in the next year. In Spain a person can also vote a blank ballot ("voto en blanco" on the chart) or you can null vote as well, which means you deliberately tamper with the ballot so it's not counted. Example of voting null include: voting for everyone(stuffing the envelope), putting something in the envelope that's not a ballot (like a kebab flyer), or putting random objects in the envelope (like poo poo). That last option was pretty popular in the last election I hear, as people would put feces along with a PP ballot, or if the local branch of the party is embroiled in some corruption scandal, people would put a "chorizo" (Spanish sausage, also slang for "crook") in with the PP ballot. Basically, for those people who want their vote to actually count and vote for their party, Podemos would get the majority of these votes. Podemos is getting the vote out, and this is something that worries the mainstream parties. Keep in mind that Podemos doesn't have much of a party platform yet either, yet they have the majority of the decided vote already.  These last two charts are pretty self-explanatory if you have a basic understanding of Spanish. A whopping 82.2% of Spaniards think that the economic situation is lovely or really lovely, and another 80.5% think that the political situation is the same. Now, this is back in October, before all the new corruption scandals, some of which include:
My prediction that if more scandals keep popping up then snap elections might be held, but that's a long shot. Now, if PP and PSOE do band together and form a coalition (which is being talked about right now actually) against Podemos, then I suppose they would win against Podemos, or have enough of a majority to shut them out politically. Such a thing would be political suicide, a last-ditch attempt to counter the wave of populism. Generations now have been fed the line that "the other party sucks, <chosen party> is the only hope for the future of Spain!" for so long that if they did let their powers combine it would a slap in the face to every die-hard party militant, and there are a lot of those in Spain still. I'm going to write up a big post on the chronology of Podemos sometime this week. I just hope that this thread doesn't turn into just my effortposts though.  Sources: here and here
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Dec 7, 2014 17:39
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Cool, I'll work on a "state of the nation" effortpost later. I'll try to keep it neutral, but my fellow portuguese goons might have different opinions than me on stuff!
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Dec 7, 2014 18:39
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Is Podemos further to the left than IU? It just seems weird for people to be freaking out about a supposed Chavista when there's a literal communist party.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:08
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I'm afraid Chavez heart already belongs to someone else.  Pictured here Chavez as the Bride and former Tuga Prime Minister Jose Socrates as the groom. This from the days(2008) where these two had a blooming love life, involving oil and children laptops. Chavez claimed that Socrates was his(and by extension the whole of Venezuela) friend in Europe. Now one is dead and the other in jail. How things changed.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:10
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Badger of Basra posted:Is Podemos further to the left than IU? It just seems weird for people to be freaking out about a supposed Chavista when there's a literal communist party. Podemos isn't much of anything yet. They were still hashing out their platform and party rules weeks ago. It's not really clear how leftist theyare going to be. The freakout is because they have come up with a message that has connected with people and thus they can actually get a decent amount of votes. Pedro De Heredia fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 19:25
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Badger of Basra posted:Is Podemos further to the left than IU? It just seems weird for people to be freaking out about a supposed Chavista when there's a literal communist party. People are freaking out because it looks like Podemos might actually win the election.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:29
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Parties with parliamentary representation PSD (108 MP, 6 MEP) "The name might be somewhat misleading, as the PSD is not a traditional Social Democratic Party, being much closer to the right-wing. It is the Portuguese equivalent of any other centre-right party in Europe such as the UK Conservatives, the Spanish PP, or the German CDU. PSD was founded right after 1974 Revolution as Partido Popular Democrático (People's Democratic Party) by many personalities of the so-called "liberal wing" of the fascist regime, like Francisco Sá Carneiro, Francisco Pinto Balsemão and Joaquim Magalhães Mota. Its leader, Pedro Passos Coelho, is the current Prime Minister of Portugal." Currently in power, PSD is an association of misfits: they've got every kind of politician or ideology under the sun united for the sake of getting some power, as most centre-right parties do. The msot influential of the two big parties in terms of the media. PS (74 MP, 8 MEP) "Social Democrat, founded in 1973, it is a party which resembles the British Labour Party, the German SPD or the Spanish PSOE. The party was founded before the 1974 Revolution in Bad Münstereifel West Germany by Mário Soares, one of the main opponents of the fascist regime, and by other personalities. The last Socialist Prime Minister, til date, was José Sócrates (2005-2011). Its current leader is António José Seguro, elected with 68% of the vote on 23 July 2011." Wikipedia's description is slightly out of date, as the Socialists recently elected the Gandhi of Lisbon, António Costa, after an incredibly poor showing by Seguro during his three years as opposition leader. If you've ever voted for a centre-left party, you know what you're getting into. PS's power first came in 1974-75, when they were essentially the USA-backed alternative to the more hardline revolutionaries like the PCP. Since then, they've always really been the biggest party in town, and PSD/CDS's turns in power always come after PS leaders gently caress up. Created lots of nice stuff like Social Security and the national healthcare system; are destroying them nowadays. CDS-PP (24 MP, 1 MEP) "A traditional Christian Democrat party, very similar to the German CSU. Also founded after the revolution it is to the right of the PSD, and advocates stringent social and religious conservatism. In 1976 it was the only party that voted against approval of a socialist constitution. After a more populist right-wing tencency with his leaders Manuel Monteiro and Paulo Portas in the early to late 1990s and early 2000s, it returned to its centrist Christian Democrat roots with Paulo Portas' second period in its leadership in the late 2000s." Possibly the only Christian Democrat party led by a(n allegedly) homosexual man, CDS is not only the church's party as well as the party that harbors right-wing populists, people that yearn for the old regime, Mises Institute libertarians and that weird college buddy of yours. Paulo Portas is probably the best politician in Europe, because he manages to be all things to all people and hold on to immense power even without anyone voting for him. Watch this space - in the next elections, who knows what will happen! In government right now, in a coalition with PSD. PCP (14 MP, 3 MEP) "The major left-wing party, founded in 1921 as the Portuguese Section of The Communist International (Comintern), has its major influence among the working class and played a major role in the opposition to the Salazar regime, being brutally repressed for the duration of the dictatorial regime. After being one of the most influent parties in the years that followed the Carnation Revolution it lost most of its power base after the fall of the Socialist Bloc of eastern Europe, but still enjoys popularity in vast sectors of Portuguese society, particularly in the rural areas of Alentejo and Ribatejo and also in the heavily industrialized areas around Lisbon and Setúbal. It also has a major influence among the biggest Portuguese Labour Union – General Confederation of the Portuguese Workers (CGTP). Its historical leader, now deceased, was Álvaro Cunhal. " PCP is an interesting historical anomaly, being basically the only european communist party that held on to its name, iconography and ideology after the fall of the Berlin Wall. You know what you can count on when you're voting CDU (their coalition with PEV), and that includes scathing criticisms of capital, the biggest political summer festival in the world, and defending North Korea. Have been gaining strength in recent years, but refuse an alliance with PS, so, it's pretty unlikely they'll get any national-level power - they did grab a municipality in the last elections, though. BE (8 MP, 1 MEP) "Formed in 1999 by several left-wing parties, it adopts a wide range of left-wing policies, concentrating its efforts on the legalisation of abortion, gay marriage and soft drugs. It portrays itself as a modern, progressive alternative to the Communist Party. In the last years the party lost some of its radical wordiness and proposals, slowly becoming a mainstream party on one hand and more closely resembling the Communist party (from where some of its founders had defected) on another." Dead, so I won't speak ill of them. The Left Bloc managed to shift the Overton window to the left for a while there, making former PS PM José Sócrates co-opt their social causes for votes. It worked, and gay abortions are now legal and mandatory. When the Troika came and took over the country, they refused to meet with them, signaling the start of their fall into becoming PCP-lite, and everyone who wants to vote for the communists will just vote for the real ones instead. PEV (2 MP) Not a real party, but their leader, Heloísa Apolónia, is an important voice in parliament. I love the term watermelon party - green on the outside, red inside. Other parties MPT (2 MEP) Populist shitlord Marinho Pinto ran under the party for the Europarl elections, got enough votes to elect himself and some other random guy, then bailed on them to create his own party. Will not get any MPs next elections. LIVRE The newest leftist party, led by Rui Tavares, who got elected to the Europarl as an independent via BE and then ended up leaving BE. Didn't get their goal of electing Tavares back into the parliament, but got a decent percentage. Are running in a coalition with a movement of a bunch of other former-BE dudes, and will probably elect one or two MPs in urban areas. PAN The "party for the animals and nature", they might elect a guy in Lisbon. Apparently believe in acupuncture and holistic medicine. PDR Marinho Pinto's new party. He's probably getting elected, at least. A bunch of other "anti-corruption" populists might join him and get elected too.
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Dec 7, 2014 19:53
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Badger of Basra posted:Is Podemos further to the left than IU? It just seems weird for people to be freaking out about a supposed Chavista when there's a literal communist party. Not really , but they have a real shot to win an election a charismatic leader and internal unity something that izquierda unida has sorely lacked in the past 10 years or so since Anguita retired.Basically people didn't freak out before with Izquierda Unida because they didn't have a shot of winning anything and whenever reached a position of power they suddenly turned right. The major problem Podemos has is the economic one , this is probably the first election in 19 years that economic matters are primordial to the electorate (unemployment and debt) both PP and the Socialistas have really uninspired economic programs that basically are more of the same faux-austerity bullshit we have endured for the past 7 years. Podemos probed with a few ideas (rejection of debt , nationalization of a bunch of industries including energy and petroleum )and every economic journo started to scream like their pants were on fire , plus the members of the party in charge of the economy are kind of dorky-creepy. In the leader part Iglesias murders Mariano Rajoy something not really difficult because every body hates him even the people in his own party.Sánchez might a superficially adequate candidate (he certainly looks the part) , but he's an appointed leader and he'll be murdered in a debate. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 19:55
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Badger of Basra posted:Is Podemos further to the left than IU? It just seems weird for people to be freaking out about a supposed Chavista when there's a literal communist party. They are freaking out because there is no dirt on anyone in Podemos and they don´t owe any banks money, like the other parties. Podemos crowdfunds its political campaigns. The main parties can´t accuse each other of corruption because they are all dirty and they all have their own dirty laundry. Podemos can expose them and bring it into public debate, something that has never happened before. That´s why they are muckraking as much as they can on Podemos. If Podemos wins lots of people will go to jail.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:07
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Bad Milk posted:If Podemos wins lots of people will go to jail. I'll wait and see this is spain after all.I've seen slam dunk cases fizzle out in courts so set up your expectations of justice to the appropriate level citizen. Also some small dirt is coming out.Errejon seems to have mismanaged his research funds and there are some rumblings of tax evasion in Pablo Iglesias' studio. As much as I want them to be completely clean I cannot believe it for a second. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 22:31 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 22:29
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vamos IU, arriba cayo lara, tercera ya imo. Podemos is also Cool and Good.
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Dec 7, 2014 23:06
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Ya...tal
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Dec 7, 2014 23:59
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Interesting thread. Could you do a writeup on the Catalonia independence issue? (and the other regional issues) I'm Scottish, and the nationalist movement, at least the activists, tied themselves up pretty heavily with the Catalan independence movement during the recent independence referendum. Are Spanish people getting annoyed by noisy Scottish nationalists mouthing off on Catalan independence?
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Dec 8, 2014 00:02
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I'm no expert but Catalonia is and has historically been the wealthiest region of Spain in part due to its strategic location. I know a lot of cynics say that the separatist movement has a touch of FYGM to it. Then there's also the fact that historically its language has been suppressed and the central government has always tried to dick around with it so who knows.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:06
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The rise of Podemos really seems like the biggest and craziest shift in a western liberal democracy in a long, long time. I can't think of anything to compare it to. From an American perspective, it'd be like if Occupy Wall Street formed a political party and in less than a year it became more popular than both the Republicans and Democrats, which seems like an impossibility... although maybe if there was 25% unemployment. Does it seem that shocking in Spain? I was in Madrid the summer of the protests in puerta del sol and stumbled into a few of them and they didn't seem that different from Occupy. If they're successful in the next election I could see it invigorating the entirety of the European left.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:10
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mediadave posted:Interesting thread. Could you do a writeup on the Catalonia independence issue? (and the other regional issues) I'm curious about this too, I'm Irish and I sometimes notice that Northern Republicans play up their connections and solidarity with the Spanish separatist movements:     How would this be seen in Catalonia and the Basque country? Is it well known at all?
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Dec 8, 2014 00:11
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:The rise of Podemos really seems like the biggest and craziest shift in a western liberal democracy in a long, long time. I can't think of anything to compare it to. From an American perspective, it'd be like if Occupy Wall Street formed a political party and in less than a year it became more popular than both the Republicans and Democrats, which seems like an impossibility... although maybe if there was 25% unemployment. Does it seem that shocking in Spain? I was in Madrid the summer of the protests in puerta del sol and stumbled into a few of them and they didn't seem that different from Occupy. The surprise isn't that Podemos is a thing that happened, the surprise is that it's a thing it hasn't been happening everywhere else as well. Greece has SYRIZA, sure, but even though there is a lot of left-wing dissent against austerity and right-wing economic policies it is only Greece and Spain that have had parties which effectively capitalised on that. It is really fertile ground, but no-one has really taken it up in countries like Italy, Portugal, France or the UK.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:35
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Podemos is going to loving crush it in the elections in Andalucía, especially if IU makes a strategic deal with them. I'm excited as all hell
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Dec 8, 2014 00:51
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What is it with places conquered hundreds of years ago that still want to reclaim their very very very far removed heritage of independence? Hundreds of years of "let's fight another war over [tiny piece of land bordered by three large powers] this year" should've crushed any desire to rock the boat when it comes to redrawing borders 
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Dec 8, 2014 10:58
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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blowfish posted:What is it with places conquered hundreds of years ago that still want to reclaim their very very very far removed heritage of independence? Hundreds of years of "let's fight another war over [tiny piece of land bordered by three large powers] this year" should've crushed any desire to rock the boat when it comes to redrawing borders Neither Catalonia nor Scotland were conquered by the countries they are presently under, in both cases marriage and succession politics brought them under the polities we now call Spain and United Kingdom.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:03
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YF-23 posted:The surprise isn't that Podemos is a thing that happened, the surprise is that it's a thing it hasn't been happening everywhere else as well. Greece has SYRIZA, sure, but even though there is a lot of left-wing dissent against austerity and right-wing economic policies it is only Greece and Spain that have had parties which effectively capitalised on that. It is really fertile ground, but no-one has really taken it up in countries like Italy, Portugal, France or the UK. It is probably mostly because of party dynamics and how that anger was channeled. Portugal does already have 2 major(ish) leftist parties beyond a traditional-center left one, but there hasn't been an opening for a comparable "new left" party at this point. France has had FN pick up those votes and the left has grow pretty weak. UKIP in Britain is comparable I guess, but less radicalized. Italy MS5 and Lega Nord are picking up the protest votes, MS5 especially seems to want to be everything to everyone while clearly there are moving in a more rightward direction as time has gone on (from bits and pieces I have read). There are a still a cipher though. My take is that are parties that are picking up those votes, they just necessarily leftist ones. I guess one other thing is that both Spain and Greece had the experience of politically charged civil wars, and that might have left the political landscape more permanently radicalized. As more traditional and centrist institutions have failed, familiar fissures have opened up.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:12
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mediadave posted:Interesting thread. Could you do a writeup on the Catalonia independence issue? (and the other regional issues) Nobody really cares about Scottish or Irish nationalists going round.The biggest reaction would be curiosity or amusement if they are wearing a kilt. Also the catalonian nationalist issue (what a title) is a massive clusterfuck from a fairly simple issue that mixes culture ,the architecture of the current state and their institutions , recent and far reaching history. Catalan politics are divided in Ciu (convergència i unió)ERC (Esquerra Republicana de catalunya),PSC (partit Socialista de Catalunya),IpC (Iniciativa per Catalunya).CiU is the party of the catalonian petit bourgeois , they want all the benefits of an eventual catalan estate with none of the drawbacks .They basically want a country for themselves to rule as they see fit.For decades they played the part of independent agitators and when the plebs became unruly they would came back crying to Madrid asking for help crushing the poors,rinse and repeat constantly.When Pujol came into power late 80's early 90's a deal was struck between the most rancid right wing in madrid and CiU.Pujol would act as a bulwark against independence in exchange of judicial immunity for their multiple corrupt deals and client webs. This "deal" stood till Artur Más into power.He had the unpleasant job of cutting every thing he could in the budget (cuts far deeper than any other region in Spain) which was and is and extremely unpalatable move in an extremely left wing region so he went against the historic trend of his own party and went full blown in the independence train. Off course not only Màs has been fueling this flame .The rejection by the supreme court of the new fundamental law of Catalunya voted by the people by the supreme court (an extremely conservative an politicised institution),the massive crisis for the past seven years and the almost traitorous plans of the central government ,the massive corruption cases that keep appearing out of thin air and the unsolved issues of the dictatorship ,the transition and austerity fatigue have spiralled the situation out of Más control. The other catalonian players are only happy and smiling.The chickens are coming home to roost one after another. Meritorious mention to the central government and the castilian political class .A reactionary and corrupt institution hell bent in destroying any alternative centres of power in the country,locked into a XVII century view of the Spanish state (one country,one language, all ruled from the capitol whether you like it or not) incapable of accepting any moderate change. This independence issue has only exposed the cracks of the so called "Model Transition" for what it really was:An effort to change everything so nothing changes.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:35
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Lamadrid posted:(...)locked into a XVII century view of the Spanish state (one country,one language, all ruled from the capitol whether you like it or not) incapable of accepting any moderate change(...) And even 300 years ago it was a desperate attempt to copy France.
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Dec 8, 2014 14:40
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Very interesting. I've got the idea in my head to spend a month or so in Spain this year, so I'll definitely be following this thread just to learn more about what's going on. I've also got a slight bone to pick with the OP: a ham in every household is everyone's dream, not just Spanish people.
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Dec 8, 2014 15:30
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PT6A posted:Very interesting. I've got the idea in my head to spend a month or so in Spain this year, so I'll definitely be following this thread just to learn more about what's going on. Yes but if you've never seen the reality of a cured pig leg just hanging out in the kitchen it's quite different to actually see it from imagine it. I ended up on local Spanish news in Ávila once because I attended the matanza of a village and my friend's mom grabbed the reporter and was like "there's an American here!!!!" I told them we don't have matanzas in America and it would actually be quite shocking as most Americans don't think about where their meat comes from and then me and the reporter agreed that was a shame. My claim to Spanish fame. No wait, actually once I was in the same elevator as Carlos Baute. But I didn't say anything to him.
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Dec 8, 2014 15:57
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Xibanya posted:Yes but if you've never seen the reality of a cured pig leg just hanging out in the kitchen it's quite different to actually see it from imagine it. I've actually seen two places here in Calgary with hams. One was actually true iberico, the other was just serrano I think. It doesn't stop every restaurant in the city from loving up every other aspect of Spanish food, mind you. If the tapas are so slow coming out that I've already finished my drink, the entire point has been missed, dammit!
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Dec 8, 2014 16:10
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PT6A posted:I've actually seen two places here in Calgary with hams. One was actually true iberico, the other was just serrano I think. It doesn't stop every restaurant in the city from loving up every other aspect of Spanish food, mind you. If the tapas are so slow coming out that I've already finished my drink, the entire point has been missed, dammit! Tapas should already be prepared when you get your beer/wine.THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Ibérico and other pig related products are somewhat difficult to find , or at least were for a few years due to sanitary and other regulations. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 16:26
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Why, it makes me so indignant!
Xibanya fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 16:28
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Xibanya posted:I told them we don't have matanzas in America There are matanzas in rural New Mexico. I won't disagree that most Americans (including me) would not find it appealing.
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Dec 8, 2014 16:58
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Lamadrid posted:Tapas should already be prepared when you get your beer/wine.THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! Also they should be free, but that's a battle I've simply stopped fighting outside of Spain.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:07
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blowfish posted:What is it with places conquered hundreds of years ago that still want to reclaim their very very very far removed heritage of independence? Hundreds of years of "let's fight another war over [tiny piece of land bordered by three large powers] this year" should've crushed any desire to rock the boat when it comes to redrawing borders Catalonia and the Basque country are the more sane and with cause examples of Independence movements in Iberia. The Azores and the Madeira(Portugal), and Canary Islands(Spain) all have pro-independence movements. Yes, a bunch of islands with a handful of people living in them want to be independent from the respective mainlands. During the confusion of 74-76 that followed the fall of the Estado Novo, actual terrorist groups emerged in Madeira and Azores. They went away when the new Portuguese government made the islands into autonomous regions, but there are still a bunch of nutters in those islands that want to breakaway with the mainland. In the Azores the local fascist independence party(PDA), after years of being repeatly mocked and marginalized in the Azores parliament decided to go all ETA(with the hoods and everything!) and make a public statement of going underground and all that noise. Problem is that before going rogue, they were a recognized party by the courts in the Azores and in the Mainland, so all of their members and militants are registered and the police known exactly who these clowns are. The big boss of PDA claims that in 2 years the Azores will be fully independent. Which of course is not happening, first because the Azores is bankruppted, second because the only thing keeping those islands afloat is the naval base in Lajes leased out to the Americans and PDA wants the Americans out, and third because lol. The Madeira independence movement is stranger. Madeira is the second richest region in Portugal, so a lot if it's basically "sticking up to the establishment in the 'Continete'!" largely personafied by it's colourful president Alberto João Jardim, the Fidel Castro da Madeira. The nickname isn't because he is communist, but he has been Madeiras President since 1978. It also makes him the longest (freely) democraticly elected ruler in the world. Jardim hates and derides every single government in the mainland, regardless if its PS or PSD(Jardim's party and current government). PSD has been for years trying to get rid of Jardim, but the man rules his party side with an iron fist. Not even a handful days ago, the Madeira members of Parliament voted against the government proposed tax reform, which has set off yet again a new inner party war. However Jardim time is up. He is resigning in January and not going to run for elections in Madeira again, though he is thinking of moving to the main Parliament which would be a riot. Many reasons for this, one is that it's been that long, the other is that the Madeira is completley broke, and the Madeira electorate is starting to turn on Jardim. There's also the fact that the regional government tried to hide the real financial situation of the islands from the mainland. Three years ago the Bank of Portugal and the Public Ministry found out certain discrepancies in the public accountings of the regional government, a billion euros in debt that were "forgotten" somewhere. This became part of a bigger criminal and fraud investigation called "Cuba Livre", but the Ministry of Finance at the time(then headed by Victor Gaspar) decided not to follow up with it's own investigations, it simply added the debt to the national books and rolled with it, so the matter is dead. The Canary Islands independent movement is the really weird one, it runs from Right to Left, fascists, liberals, enviromentalists, communists, at some point even Berber nationalism. More recently one of these movements appeared on Portuguese news, as a group of Canary enviromentalists activists landed and occupied the Savage Islands, a group of islands that belong to the archipelago of the Madeira and therefor claimed by Portugal. This group of criminals claimed that the Savages belonged to (a Free Independent) Canary Islands, this act of agression was answered by the brave Portuguese Navy who kicked these terrorisrs out of our sovereign territory and sent them packing back to Spain. This Wikipedia article clearly written by Spanish Nationalists will tell you that the Savages are actually closer to the Canaries than Madeira, but it's all lies. Those islands are Portuguese. The actual islands are completley useless, just a bunch of rocks with seaguls, but they give Portugal the largest maritime economic exclusive zone in the EU. The size of the zone is always highlighted by Portuguese politicians as a matter of pride(size issues), and of cultural heritage(land of sailors). Yet Portugal has the same rules in fishing and the likes as everyone else in the EU regardless of sea size, so the zone is really a burden on public finances and Navy budget, which is how you end up with the state purchasing two broken submarines from crooked German military sub-contractors. Though nobody is going to admit that. But those dumb barren islands continue on to be a sticking point between Portugal and Spain, because both governments believe that their part of the Atlantic is filled with oil, and none want to miss out on that party. There's also the bizarre case of the Algarve, that continues on to believe that isn't really part of Portugal because it was conquered last, and was always refered to as a kingdom aside. 
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Dec 8, 2014 17:14
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Regarding the catalan countries , depending on where in Valencia or Alicante you mention "Els països Catalans" you can get knuckle sandwich or a secret handshake.That poo poo is polarizing to say the least specially in Valencia , where the Popular Party reigns supreme even after massive economic crisis and corruption issues.Electronico6 posted:The actual islands are completley useless, just a bunch of rocks with seaguls, but they give Portugal the largest maritime economic exclusive zone in the EU. The size of the zone is always highlighted by Portuguese politicians as a matter of pride(size issues), and of cultural heritage(land of sailors). Yet Portugal has the same rules in fishing and the likes as everyone else in the EU regardless of sea size, so the zone is really a burden on public finances and Navy budget, which is how you end up with the state purchasing two broken submarines from crooked German military sub-contractors. Though nobody is going to admit that. At least you had the good sense of buying broken german equipment instead of setting out to design your own broken submarines.Protip for those adventurous and industrious types, the weight of the welding must be accounted for in the final design. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 19:32
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Lamadrid posted:plus the members of the party in charge of the economy are kind of dorky-creepy. You mean this guy?  hola guapa Lamadrid posted:I'll wait and see this is spain after all.I've seen slam dunk cases fizzle out in courts so set up your expectations of justice to the appropriate level citizen. Yeah, Errejon (pictured, head of Podemos' electoral campaign) is kinda hard to take seriously at first, but he's not too bad of a dude I imagine. He holds his own on the debate shows when he's not drowned out by the mainstream party lackeys that seem to be crawling out of the woodwork on those type of shows. His looks don't help, but he's pretty articulate. The controversy about him getting paid a researcher's stipend at a Spanish university while campaigning for Podemos seems a bit stupid and disingenuous when coming from the PPSOE, since those parties are notorious for having career politicians collecting paychecks from all the different committee chairs, local government positions, business associations, etc. that they all hold positions in while running for office and while holding office. Sheng-ji Yang posted:The rise of Podemos really seems like the biggest and craziest shift in a western liberal democracy in a long, long time. I can't think of anything to compare it to. From an American perspective, it'd be like if Occupy Wall Street formed a political party and in less than a year it became more popular than both the Republicans and Democrats, which seems like an impossibility... although maybe if there was 25% unemployment. Does it seem that shocking in Spain? I was in Madrid the summer of the protests in puerta del sol and stumbled into a few of them and they didn't seem that different from Occupy. Yeah man, it's got all sort of people here fired up, especially people who normally don't give a gently caress about politics. Anecdotal, I know, but I've heard people talking about Podemos in 20 person towns as well as in the regional capitols, and most are favorable. A lot wonder where the money is going to come from, and the more well-read citizens fear that Podemos' policy sounds great on paper but, if Podemos wins, the IMF/Troika/EU are going to shut out Spain until the Spanish elect another neoliberal puppet. I live in Galicia (loving bastion of latent Francoism) and people are talking about Podemos like whoa. I've gone to a Podemos meeting as well and it was the best organized populist meeting I had ever attended. Everyone was really civil, even with the pensioners who like to rant for 15 minutes, and the heads of the local branch communicate with but are not necessarily beholden to what the central party says, and the organizers travel to Madrid for the general assemblies then report back in the next general meeting, which are all held in public places like parks and such. It's pretty egalitarian, especially when you're voting on motions in the rain. mediadave posted:Interesting thread. Could you do a writeup on the Catalonia independence issue? (and the other regional issues) Sure! I can write something up (or try to) this week as well, since I just don't want to write about Podemos all the drat time as Podemos is really just one facet of the fascinating clusterfuck that is contemporary Spanish politics. To answer your last question, no one here really cared about Scottish independence other than the Catalans, and most Spaniards who don't live in Catalonia don't give much of a gently caress about either one. My take on the whole Catalonia thing is that this whole push for independence is heavily clouded by the new corruption scandal involving Jordi Pujol (the former President of Catalonia) and how all that money that Madrid was apparently loving out of Catalonia was actually being smuggled in briefcases across the border into Pujol's private accounts in Andorra.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:14
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khwarezm posted:How would this be seen in Catalonia and the Basque country? Is it well known at all? I had friends from Catalonia who were obsessed with independence and read about it all the time and it was pretty much all they would think about. They are certainly aware and if they ever overheard anyone mention the UK at all they would jump in and be like "FREE NORTH IRELAND, SCOTTISH INDEPENDENCE, SELF DETERMINATION!" Most people are vaguely aware and might be like "oh yeah those guys have that solidarity thing" but you would have to jog their memory first. I had friends from Catalonia who were like "meh" about the whole independence thing. One of my friends was from Barcelona and he was really into the whole independence movement. It was a sad day when he learned that I spoke English because from then on he refused to speak to me in Spanish, the language of the oppressor. His English was dire. Unfortunately then you'd get people who were genuine fascists who would assume you were on their side and start saying the most foul awful nonsense about Basques and Catalonians (and immigrants, and atheists, and kids these days...) I was teaching English in the home of a wealthy family (the one who lived in the same complex as Carlos Baute) and when I told them I had to leave Spain because they wouldn't renew my residence this time the mother began with "It's not fair that they would kick out a hardworking smart youth like you!" I was about to nod in agreement when she added "And they let those Romanians and Bulgarians live here!" I found the best escape for both was to take advantage of the stereotype that Americans are dumb as hell and act stupid/pretend your Spanish is not advanced enough to understand until they stop bothering you. Xibanya fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 20:19
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Lamadrid posted:At least you had the good sense of buying broken german equipment instead of setting out to design your own broken submarines.Protip for those adventurous and industrious types, the weight of the welding must be accounted for in the final design. ahahahahhahahahahahah link please?
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Dec 8, 2014 20:39
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icantfindaname posted:ahahahahhahahahahahah link please? http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2014/09/14/54149bec268e3e6e608b458c.html Spanish only but holy poo poo the clusterfuck is clusterfuckier.They went over the wheigh limit so much that they had to increase the lenght by 9 meters on a defence program that looks to be 10 years late and over two billion over budget. All the defence programs in the past 20 or so years have been extremely shadowy which is something worrying because we changed almost every toy in the arsenal. hump day bitches! fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 21:23
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Lamadrid posted:http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2014/09/14/54149bec268e3e6e608b458c.html http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130605/DEFREG01/306050017/Navantia-Gets-US-Help-Fix-Overweight-Sub English article here, and yeah it's as bad as it sounds.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:30
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