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Welcome to the Iberpolitics thread, a thread which showcases the absolute worst in parliamentary politics this side of the Atlantic. Like other regional politics threads, here we will chronicle the continuing political developments of the Iberian countries: Spain and Portugal and Andorra (actually, gently caress Andorra and their tax haven bullshit). Spain is a parliamentary democracy, and a relatively new one at that. Spain transitioned out of the Franco dictatorship in 1978, yet many will tell you that the process is still ongoing. Some backstory: Before Franco, in which Spain goes from empire to shithole  what spaniards looked like before penelope cruz Spain, once the greatest empire of the world, was turned into a economic and political backwater after Napoleon invaded the peninsula and set up his brother as king at the beginning of the 19th century. After Napoleon got kicked out, Spain lost its overseas empire and its main source of exploitable wealth. The 19th century was mostly a lot of back and forth between liberals and conservatives (looks like things haven't changed much amirite), one party winning power and changing a bunch of poo poo then the opposing party winning the following election and undoing said changes. So basically nothing happened in Spain in the 1800s other than some short lived revolutions, the First Spanish Republic, and illiterate peasants not giving a gently caress. At the beginning of the 20th century, after losing a war with America, staying out of World War 1, and a horrible flu epidemic, Republicans won the general election in 1931 and establish the Second Spanish Republic. All of the sudden, commie pinkos and black cat anarchists are the cool kids and dudes in black robes smelling like incense were no longer cool. Of course, this bothered the God botherers, who decided to rise up against the godless Republicans with the help of General Francisco Franco. The Spanish Civil War, or the majority of Spanish movies  a spanish movie that was marketed as "hosed up alice in wonderland" but was really 70% spanish civil war and 30% lewis carrol on acid If you want to know what happened during this time, just watch any random Spanish movie and, most likely, it'll be a movie set in this time period, and you'll get the general idea. The Nationalists, led by Franco, ground the Republicans down over the course of three years and took Madrid in 1939. The Nationalists had the help of the Italians and the Germans (both fascists), while the Republicans had help from the USSR and Mexico (lol). Lots of foreign brigades helped the Republicans too. Franco eventually won, solidified control over the country, and brought about decades of political repression and SEAT cars. Spain under Franco  "Some years ago Spain was badly ruled. There were gunfire in the streets and churches were burned. To stop all of this, Franco rose up in arms with the military and after three years of war he kicked the Fatherland's enemies out. The Spanish made Franco their leader or Caudillo and has gloriously governed Spain since 1936." In the beginning there were purges of unwanted elements, lots of exiles and whatnot. There was only one party, the Falange, and everyone had to be a member of it. No unions, no dissent, and you voted on whatever Franco wanted you to vote on. So it went for a while, until the inevitable creep of market liberalization and blah blah blah. Franco was worshiped as a totally awesome dude who freed the Spanish from rear end in a top hat foreign interlopers until he died in 1975. Democracy, or something like it  TITS AND LASERS AND COCAINE After Franco died, the son of the last Spanish king was invited back to Spain to rule. A constitution was passed via referendum, guaranteeing basic human rights and all that good stuff the West takes for granted. With this came an explosion in arts and culture since there wasn't a bunch of old stuffy dudes telling people what to publish. Basically, tits were everywhere in Spain, and the 80s are fondly remembered through a cocaine-laced haze. The 90s had a recession then things got progressively better until 2008. Spain in the now  the spanish dream: a ham in every household The construction industry boomed in the 2000s because the banks were giving out loans like crazy. Most were poo poo, since most normal people couldn't afford mortgages but they thought they could because good times were finally here in Spain. Eventually the bottom fell out like in the US and now there's lots of angry homeless people in Spain. There's even more jobless young people in their 30s still living with their parents and that also pisses them off. Austerity cuts have hit these folks hard and now there are populist movements trying to change the lovely two party system that has monopolized Spain since the transition to democracy (and arguably before that). With that said, let's talk Spanish politics. Spanish political parties  Partido Popular "we went to war in iraq then blamed the basques when al qaeda blew up our poo poo" Founded by some guy from Galicia, the PP call themselves center right but as of late they've been acting more like cartoon supervillains, trying to railroad legislation through Congress like abortion reform, education reform, and making it illegal to record policeman beating the poo poo out of you. Currently the governing party and personified by the President, Mariano Rajoy. Also currently embroiled by corruption scandal after corruption scandal.  Socialists "the last guy we made president looked like mr. bean" Democrats to the PP's Republicans, the PSOE likes to position themselves as the answer to the PP. Nominally center left, these guys haven't mounted much of an opposition to the PP in years and the political discourse between the two parties is turning into less about platforms and policies and more about "Whatever the other guys said, we're against that."  United Left "disparate parties of the left unite!" The IU is made up of leftists that got disillusioned with two party politics. The IU is a coalition of a bunch of different parties (communists, syndicalists, anarchists). Pretty cool dudes overall, like Julio Anguita (retired communist mayor of Cordoba for years), but largely ineffectual politics-wise on the national scale.  UPyD "we complain about everything" The old Socialist party, now new and improved with a neoliberal agenda. These guys are also pretty loving ineffectual since no one in the two main parties likes them, especially the PP since UPyD always likes calling out the PP for not being neoliberal enough.  Podemos "COMMUNIST BOLIVARIAN ISLAMOFASCIST CONSPIRACY" Born from the crucible of 15-M (Occupy Spain, more or less) and led by Pablo Iglesias, a political science professor turned GPS of the proletariat, Podemos won five seats in the EU election this year after only existing as a political party for three months. Party policies are crowd sourced, people vote on the policies proposed, and (magic!) a populist party platform emerges. The established political system is terrified of this long haired dude since Podemos can get enough momentum to spoil the party they've been having with public funds since the 19th century. Or nothing at all could happen, which is also a possibility considering how Spaniards don't give as much of a gently caress about democracy as before since they usually end up landless and fighting each other for poverty wages despite whichever system of government currently employed.
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Dec 4, 2014 20:23
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 17:23 |
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reserved for portugal
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Dec 4, 2014 20:24
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Awesome, thanks for making this thread. Do you think Podemos will be able to maintain their lead as the most popular party until the next election? No problem, now we have to get all the Portugoons in the EU thread over here. To answer your question, it's a probably with a big maybe. I know that doesn't make sense, so I will explain. First of all, it's difficult to actually gauge the citizens' reactions to Podemos due to how the Spanish media works. The Spanish media is highly biased, especially RTVE, which is basically Spanish public radio and television, but unlike NPR and PBS in the States, the directors and such get tossed out whenever the opposing party takes power. The last time the Socialists were in power (Zapatero aka Mr. Bean) RTVE was professional and informative as hell. Nowadays, with the PP dominating everything they directly can, they had a blanket ban up until very recently on anything Podemos on public television. So on Spanish public television, with all the news reports and talking head shows, no one was allowed to refer to Podemos by name, opting instead to refer to "movimientos populistas" (populist movements). Just let that sink in. How can their be political discussion and discourse in public forums when all of the participants (almost all members of established political parties) refuse to even mention the name of the upstart party that threatens the existence of the system that benefits them greatly? This is just one example of how the Spanish me4dia is manipulated, and there are many, many others, so it is difficult to accurately gauge how much momentum Podemos actually has. Luckily, in Spain there are election polls, and since elections are next year they've started cold-calling people asking what party they will vote for. In case you were wondering, during national elections (and EU elections for that matter), you don't vote for the guy in the suit, you vote for the party. The last one to come out was a month ago and it covered the month of October. Let's break it on down shall we?  This chart estimates (more or less) the result if snap elections were held in that respective month. The latest number indicate that PP would get the majority of the votes but by a pretty slim margin, while the Socialists get hit pretty hard since Podemos is leeching off leftists' votes. As you can see, Podemos first shows up in the July survey with 15.3% of the vote then jumps up to 22.5% in October, which is a pretty big gain with these sort of things. Some of those votes are coming from disillusioned leftists who usually vote Socialists or IU, with some folks who usually don't vote voting for Podemos.  This chart is how people responded "Who would you vote for?" Why are there two charts for what would be the same outcome, yet there are two different winners? Well, the elections are pretty far out there still, so there is still a sizable percentage (21.9%) of folks still undecided. Those votes could go in any direction depending on what happens in the next year. In Spain a person can also vote a blank ballot ("voto en blanco" on the chart) or you can null vote as well, which means you deliberately tamper with the ballot so it's not counted. Example of voting null include: voting for everyone(stuffing the envelope), putting something in the envelope that's not a ballot (like a kebab flyer), or putting random objects in the envelope (like poo poo). That last option was pretty popular in the last election I hear, as people would put feces along with a PP ballot, or if the local branch of the party is embroiled in some corruption scandal, people would put a "chorizo" (Spanish sausage, also slang for "crook") in with the PP ballot. Basically, for those people who want their vote to actually count and vote for their party, Podemos would get the majority of these votes. Podemos is getting the vote out, and this is something that worries the mainstream parties. Keep in mind that Podemos doesn't have much of a party platform yet either, yet they have the majority of the decided vote already.  These last two charts are pretty self-explanatory if you have a basic understanding of Spanish. A whopping 82.2% of Spaniards think that the economic situation is lovely or really lovely, and another 80.5% think that the political situation is the same. Now, this is back in October, before all the new corruption scandals, some of which include:
My prediction that if more scandals keep popping up then snap elections might be held, but that's a long shot. Now, if PP and PSOE do band together and form a coalition (which is being talked about right now actually) against Podemos, then I suppose they would win against Podemos, or have enough of a majority to shut them out politically. Such a thing would be political suicide, a last-ditch attempt to counter the wave of populism. Generations now have been fed the line that "the other party sucks, <chosen party> is the only hope for the future of Spain!" for so long that if they did let their powers combine it would a slap in the face to every die-hard party militant, and there are a lot of those in Spain still. I'm going to write up a big post on the chronology of Podemos sometime this week. I just hope that this thread doesn't turn into just my effortposts though.  Sources: here and here
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Dec 7, 2014 17:39
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Lamadrid posted:plus the members of the party in charge of the economy are kind of dorky-creepy. You mean this guy?  hola guapa Lamadrid posted:I'll wait and see this is spain after all.I've seen slam dunk cases fizzle out in courts so set up your expectations of justice to the appropriate level citizen. Yeah, Errejon (pictured, head of Podemos' electoral campaign) is kinda hard to take seriously at first, but he's not too bad of a dude I imagine. He holds his own on the debate shows when he's not drowned out by the mainstream party lackeys that seem to be crawling out of the woodwork on those type of shows. His looks don't help, but he's pretty articulate. The controversy about him getting paid a researcher's stipend at a Spanish university while campaigning for Podemos seems a bit stupid and disingenuous when coming from the PPSOE, since those parties are notorious for having career politicians collecting paychecks from all the different committee chairs, local government positions, business associations, etc. that they all hold positions in while running for office and while holding office. Sheng-ji Yang posted:The rise of Podemos really seems like the biggest and craziest shift in a western liberal democracy in a long, long time. I can't think of anything to compare it to. From an American perspective, it'd be like if Occupy Wall Street formed a political party and in less than a year it became more popular than both the Republicans and Democrats, which seems like an impossibility... although maybe if there was 25% unemployment. Does it seem that shocking in Spain? I was in Madrid the summer of the protests in puerta del sol and stumbled into a few of them and they didn't seem that different from Occupy. Yeah man, it's got all sort of people here fired up, especially people who normally don't give a gently caress about politics. Anecdotal, I know, but I've heard people talking about Podemos in 20 person towns as well as in the regional capitols, and most are favorable. A lot wonder where the money is going to come from, and the more well-read citizens fear that Podemos' policy sounds great on paper but, if Podemos wins, the IMF/Troika/EU are going to shut out Spain until the Spanish elect another neoliberal puppet. I live in Galicia (loving bastion of latent Francoism) and people are talking about Podemos like whoa. I've gone to a Podemos meeting as well and it was the best organized populist meeting I had ever attended. Everyone was really civil, even with the pensioners who like to rant for 15 minutes, and the heads of the local branch communicate with but are not necessarily beholden to what the central party says, and the organizers travel to Madrid for the general assemblies then report back in the next general meeting, which are all held in public places like parks and such. It's pretty egalitarian, especially when you're voting on motions in the rain. mediadave posted:Interesting thread. Could you do a writeup on the Catalonia independence issue? (and the other regional issues) Sure! I can write something up (or try to) this week as well, since I just don't want to write about Podemos all the drat time as Podemos is really just one facet of the fascinating clusterfuck that is contemporary Spanish politics. To answer your last question, no one here really cared about Scottish independence other than the Catalans, and most Spaniards who don't live in Catalonia don't give much of a gently caress about either one. My take on the whole Catalonia thing is that this whole push for independence is heavily clouded by the new corruption scandal involving Jordi Pujol (the former President of Catalonia) and how all that money that Madrid was apparently loving out of Catalonia was actually being smuggled in briefcases across the border into Pujol's private accounts in Andorra.
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Dec 8, 2014 20:14
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Lamadrid posted:http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2014/09/14/54149bec268e3e6e608b458c.html http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130605/DEFREG01/306050017/Navantia-Gets-US-Help-Fix-Overweight-Sub English article here, and yeah it's as bad as it sounds.
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Dec 8, 2014 22:30
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wheez the roux posted:At least Spain offers citizenship to its former colonies, the US seems to go out of its way to gently caress over indigenous peoples both within and outside our borders. from my perspective racism seems to be on the decline in ES, but it's hard for me to tell since I'm lucky enough to have tolerant friends and family so I don't hear sudaca this or gitano that almost ever with them. but my last few times over there I noticed I didn't hear it as much with people outside my social circle either, so I'm curious if things are actually getting better (ie. in the US use of "retard" has gone down dramatically and almost disappeared from pop culture entirely in the past couple of years, same with calling things gay). or maybe people are just learning from americans and getting better at dogwhistle language to hide their racism I've given up on trying to explain the vagaries of (American) racism to most Spaniards. I think racism here manifests itself more in ignorant (but generally not malicious) comments and the typical stereotypes. I know I've gone off on kids here for pulling their eyes back and going "ching chong" when talking about Chinese folks but as far as systemic racism like in the US it's not so bad (except for darker immigrants). I think Spanish racism is the type that arises naturally from homogenous cultures, where the concept of otherness is pretty well-defined. Of course, that homogeneity comes from several decades of dictatorship and highly-controlled concepts of Spanish culture (bullfighting, kicking out the Moors, crippling Catholic guilt). Even though the Iberian peninsula has a long, long history of immigration, the current generations living in Spain aren't used to the mass immigration that began in the 90s and continues to this day. Also, the whole offering residency to former colonial subjects thing is not as easy as it sounds. My lawyer told me that it would save me a lot of headache and heartache to just declare a civil union with my Spanish girlfriend than try to get legit residency using my Colombian passport, and even then, I must never declare that I am Colombian with a Spanish girlfriend; rather, I must say that I am an American with a Spanish girlfriend, otherwise Immigration will come round and ask for photos, documents, utility bills, interviews, etc. for "reasons." So today the new "Civil Security" bill is up for debate in the Spanish Congress. This new bill proposes several new things to ensure the safety of the Spanish citizenry. Some of the more notable proposals include:
As you can see, some Spaniards think this law is going a bit too far. I mean, what will happen to the cherished tradition of drinking in public places ("botellon" as the kids call it)? It remains to be seen if the law passes, since apparently the PP can do whatever the hell they want regardless of public opinion, or the masses of angry people marching in the streets. The law also allows for Spanish border patrol agents to immediately hand over Sub-Saharan immigrants literally jumping the fences to get into Ceuta and Melilla (Spanish territory located in North Africa) back to the Morrocan authorities, who will probably beat the poo poo out of them or kill them. Some have said that this new law harkens back to the Francoist period where a similiiar law was passed in 1959. I'm pretty sure some of these proposals are in direct violation of some EU charter but that's never stopped the PP before! Sources here and here.
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Dec 11, 2014 13:48
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BlackTie posted:Someone who is more up to date should post about el Pequeño Nicolás. Luckily for you, I have one already written up.  "Your picture here" The bizarre story of "El pequeño Nicolás" (or Little Nicholas) circles around a chinless wonder who somehow took the backroom politics scene by storm and masterminded a complicated network of deceit amongst the political elite of Spain. Such a feat isn't that difficult because, for a sorry lot of thieves, Spanish politicos are pretty gullible, even more so than the people that vote them into power every election. Little Nicky started showing up in media with Spanish politicians in 2008, when he was 14 years old (click for video). Apparently, during a PP rally/holiday celebration in Madrid with some party bigwigs such as Esperanza Aguirre (see below) and Mariano Rajoy, the current President. In the video clip a news reporter, trying to get a question in edge-wise with Aguirre, is repeatedly denied by some peach-fuzzed kid in the crowd.  Flash forward to 2011, where he was spotted again with Mariano Rajoy, this time while Rajoy was voting for himself.  In 2014, he can be seen at the coronation of the new Spanish King Felipe VI, swearing loyalty to his new Bourbon overlord. A king's coronation is something that only the coolest of cool Spanish kids get to go to. He claims he was the plus one of someone actually invited to the event but no one has fessed up so far.  Here he is with Jose Maria Aznar (aka "Mr. Mustache"), former president of Spain who was great buddies with Dubya and brought Spain into the hellhole boondoggle known as Iraq and Afghanistan. Fun fact: 75% (or more now, new cases are popping up every day) of the government ministers under Aznar are currently under investigation for corruption, fraud, or general shenanigans.  Little Nicky with Ana Botella (aka "Annie Bottle"), wife of Aznar, current Mayor of Madrid, and of "relaxing cup of cafe con leche" notoriety (bad english proclick).  Nicky with Esperanza Aguirre (right, pink), PP mafia doña and all-around disagreeable person who earlier this year was chased around downtown Madrid by traffic cops after she parked illegally, refused to comply with the police, and side-swiped the cop's vehicle all before she scurried home and had her bodyguards deal with the police.  With Arturo Fernandez, current Commerce minister, who denied ever knowing Little Nicky before a picture of him taking a siesta on Little Nicky's couch surfaced. Also, Whatsapp conversations between the two have been released where they do business over "tomatoes" and how "green" or "ripe" they are. Take that as you will. So how did this fresh-faced youngster manage to spin such a tangled web of lies? From most accounts, he would claim that he worked for the CNI (Spanish Intelligence), that he worked on behalf of someone (usually hooking up politicians with businessmen, or vice versa), or that he knew "someone." Basically, from what I've been able to gather, he started out working for FAES (a Spanish think tank headed by Aznar), organizing youth wings of the PP for elections and other party events. It's difficult to know what exactly he was doing throughout this time because no one will admit knowing Little Nicky or working with him since his arrest in October. What IS known is that this kid got around in Spain. There are pictures of him with basically every PP head honcho, businessmen, celebrities etc. The Spanish government's official line is that this kid would just go up to these people and ask for selfies and said famous people would happily oblige without question the kid with no chin. This begs the question: was he taking selfies to flaunt his political peen on the internet via Facebook and Instagram, or was he making a digital paper trail in case he got pinched? At any rate, Little Nicky is back out in the wild after a judge let him out on bail without bond pending judicial review. He's already done several interviews and has threatened to blow the lid off of everything if he ends up in prison. This is already causing some in the political machine to worry, as next year is an election year and a tell-all book or series of scandalous interviews broadcast on Spanish TV would not go over well with the established system or the people too I suppose. And how is the common Spanish man taking this? Some think he's just another kid trying to worm his way into politics like every other politician (kissing rear end and taking selfies) and others think this kid is some sort of sociopath charlatan mastermind, cynically manipulating people and politics to get what he wanted, like living in a 5k Euro a month house for free. I'm leaning towards the latter, because it's more interesting and on par with the sorry mess that is Spanish politics. The latest thing I've heard is that that 5k Euro a month house was covered in hidden cameras and he has footage of all sorts of important people "doing business" at his house. It remains to be seen if this kid is bluffing or not, but it will be fascinating to see the kind of political fallout that such a bombshell would create, and who would be permanently tainted. Of course, the Spanish Internet has had a lot of fun with this kid, but this one is my favorite:  My name is Fran Nicolas, CNI agent. Arturo Fernandez (see above) is my uncle. I can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Tell me more about your black cards. Ok, see you later.
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Dec 16, 2014 19:50
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Electronico6 posted:But this poll also shows other good news to PS. Due to the recent events surronding the arrest of former prime minister and Socialist Saint José Socrates over corruption and fraud charges, many believed that it would rock the party, but as it turns out nobody gives a gently caress. Most portuguese think he deserves to be in jail, but it doesn't reflect poorly on the party. Is that typical in Portuguese politics? I mean, is the behavior of individual politicians seen separately from their political party as a whole? I know in the States it's like that more or less, and when an American politico fucks up they will quickly resign and divorce themselves from the party to minimize fallout. Here in Spain the main parties want the public to view them that way as well, but more and more Spaniards are wising up to the endemic corruption in the mainstream (and not so mainstream) Spanish political parties. I've been lurking in D&D for a long time, and I know that backing your poo poo up with sources is the golden rule around here. However, come Jan. 1st, I may not be able to anymore if the source is a Spanish newspaper. As some of you may know, Google has recently shuttered its News service in Spain because of a new intellectual property law. Basically, any time someone links to or references an article, a quote, or even a headline from a Spanish newspaper, the person making the reference will now owe that newspaper a hefty royalty (of upwards to 600,000 Euros). This goes for news aggregator sites (such as Meneame, Reddit, etc.), blogs, and even social media if the new law is interpreted in a certain way. Basically, this is another law that the PP railroaded through Congress. I'm not sure if it's yet another supervillain move to control public opinion or if it's the Spanish newspapers putting pressure on their politician buddies because they refuse to understand how the Internet works. quote:Now that Google has decided to close up shop rather than pay up, newspapers have backtracked. AEDE, the Association of Spanish Newspaper Editors—the same group that lobbied for the “Google tax”—has asked Spanish and European authorities to intervene to keep Google News from closing. AEDE claims the closing of Google News will have a negative impact on Spanish citizens and businesses (i.e., advertising dollars from page views) and it wants more time to negotiate. For now, though, the Spanish government plans to continue rolling out the law. Their advice if you miss your aggregators? Use a search engine. The rest of the article can be read here. It seems to me that Spanish newspapers have been lagging behind in entering the 21st century and are scared of losing advertising revenue from traditional sources. I guess they are trying to stay relevant but in the most obtuse and draconian way possible, and all of this is possible because the Spanish political and media establishments are so tightly intertwined that reactionary policies like this are the only way for them to survive 2015, the next election year.
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Dec 18, 2014 11:34
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and that's just for last month, although I predict that Podemos' numbers are going to fluctuate a bit in the coming months depending on how well Syriza's plans pan out. On that note, it's interesting how Syriza is being portrayed in the Spanish media. I've heard some good, some bad, but it seems to me that a lot of folks are taking a "wait and see" approach when it comes to reporting Syriza. Does that mean that the Spanish media will give them a positive spin if things goes well? Probably not, but if Syriza begins to falter or they start about-facing on their campaign promises you bet your rear end that the talking heads on Spanish media will parrot that talking point until election day. I'm going to write up another effortpost this week, since I've neglected this thread for far too long. I think I'll just say gently caress it to the new law and keep posting up links. If I get a fine for several hundreds of thousands of Euros I'll make sure to take a picture and post it in this thread.
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Feb 9, 2015 16:25
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I would post some of the more ridiculous Op-Eds from ABC and La Razon, the two biggest right-wing rags here in Spain, but all the really good ones are hidden behind a paywall, which I find funny because la mano invisible del mercado libre (the invisible hand of the free market) obviously demands that the consumer pay money for information and then be subjected to annoying ads anyway.
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Feb 9, 2015 20:20
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