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What if there was a magic pill that could stop people from caring about amputees?
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Dec 6, 2014 06:50
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Popular Thug Drink posted:for real though in terms of the childhood hypothetical i dont think it's possible to determine gender dysphoria until adulthood anyway because perception of gender roles is culturally established and requires an adult's understanding to truly express This isn't true. People report feeling gender dysphoria at a very young age. Popular Thug Drink posted:so the better solution is just to abandon the strict gender dichotomy in favor of a gender spectrum to encourage societal acceptance of trans people Though I support abandoning a strict gender dichotomy.
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Dec 6, 2014 08:41
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Xandu posted:Is this fundamentally different than a pill to fix gay people? I understand the point that gender dysmorphia is not easily treated (through surgery/hormones), but if it's a part of one's identity, then it can't and shouldn't really be changed. No, it's not fundamentally different, and I'm not sure what the point of this hypothetical is, especially given my second point, which is: Who What Now posted:You don't need a pill for that, it's just natural. Whoops! I meant to say "What if there was a magic pill that could stop people from caring about being amputees?" My point was that it's a problem with the body, not the mind, and since we already have ways of dealing with that (which admittedly aren't perfect, but are getting better), it's better to focus on that, and social acceptance, than to focus on some hypothetical magic pill. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 14:06
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KillHour posted:It's fundamentally different because gender dysphoria is a disease and being gay isn't. No, gender dysphoria is not a disease. A disease always has a defined etiology and is usually associated with an infectious agent. In fact, in the latest DSM, dysphoria is not even a disorder, much less a disease, and the APA has stated that one of their primary motivations for keeping it in, instead of removing it like homosexuality, is because people need a diagnostic term that will protect their access to resources.
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Dec 30, 2014 23:16
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KillHour posted:I understand the aversion to saying there's something wrong with the brains of people suffering from it Except that for many people, changing their bodies alleviates the suffering, so it's not necessarily clear that it's "something wrong with the brain." If someone is experiencing distress from gender dysphoria, and a change in the body alleviates it, then it's not the brain that's the problem, it's the body. KillHour posted:And the ICD-10 does list it as a disorder, so there's at least some disagreement about that. The ICD-10, which is over 20 years old at this point, also lists transvestism, absent any cross-sex identification, or mental distress caused by the transvestism, as a gender identity disorder, so sorry if I consider it out-dated and wrong when it comes to gender identity issues. If you're taking it seriously you'd better be ready to defend claiming that every drag queen ever has a gender identity disorder, because that's what it says. KillHour posted:Either way, arguing semantics distracts from the argument at hand; namely, is psychiatric treatment (assuming effective) a reasonable solution to gender dysphoria? I see no reason to believe it wouldn't be. How about, "it's been tried and it doesn't work," is that a good enough reason? Also you can't just say, "let's assume this treatment is effective, wouldn't it then be effective," as that's the sloppiest and most unconvincing circular argument. There's a reason any credible doctor will not recommend a course of psychiatric therapy or psychoactive drugs to "cure" gender dysphoria. Psychological treatments for gender dysphoria are about helping the patient to adapt to their desired gender role, not "cure" them and make them associate with their assigned gender. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 30, 2014 23:54
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KillHour posted:This is kind of a circular argument. Having a mismatch between the brain and the body doesn't say there's anything wrong with the brain OR the body. The brain may function just fine in a different body, but the body would function just fine with a different brain, too. You can change whichever is convenient. There's nothing special about a brain that makes changing it somehow more abhorrent than changing any other part of you. We have the means to change someone's body through hormone therapy and SRS to help alleviate dysphoria, whereas your proposed method for changing the brain involves brain-rewiring nanobots. Personally I know which one I'd say is more convenient. (hint: it's the one that doesn't involve non-existent scifi technology). KillHour posted:But that assumption is the entire premise of the OP (and the premise was explicitly stated). Of course any argument falls apart if you don't grant the original premise. That's how arguments work. If an argument has a premise based on fantasies of nonexistent Star Trek technology, it's not a leap to say that it falls apart when talking about the real world. Personally I find "what if, like, you could switch minds, man" discussions to be not relevant when discussing real people in the real world. KillHour posted:You're also (implicitly) trying to make the comparison that curing gender dysphoria is like "curing" homosexuality. This is not a valid comparison. I'm sorry but you're the one arguing that gender dysphoria can be "cured" through psychiatric means, which flies in the face of medical knowledge of gender dysphoria. It's been tried, it doesn't work. And yes, this is similar to how homosexuality tried to be cured through psychiatric means, and that also didn't work. That's the only comparison I'm making, and if you want to argue it's invalid, you're going to have to show how to eliminate gender dysphoria by psychiatrically making the person identify with their assigned gender. Torka posted:Gender dysphora is a form of suffering, sometimes intense suffering. Homosexuality is merely a sexual orientation And some people have mental/emotional suffering from being gay, and some people have gender identity issues but don't suffer from them (for example, people in other cultures). edit: I guess my point is that saying "Hey, let's assume we have nanomachines that can rewire your brain in any fashion," then limiting the discussion to trans people, is weird, and useless when it comes to real life. You'd think we'd want to prioritize major depression or anorexia or something if that technology existed, and I have to wonder why the OP didn't make a thread about that. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Dec 31, 2014 |
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Dec 31, 2014 00:36
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Torka posted:I always get the impression from your posts itt that you think any suffering related to being trans comes solely from other people/culture mistreating or misunderstanding you because you're trans (like it does for homosexuality). I think that's ridiculous because I have known trans people who were surrounded by loving, supportive, totally accepting people who nevertheless suffered from being trans because the dysphoria is inherently an unpleasant feeling. No, I guess I can see how I came off that way, but that's not what I meant to imply. I absolutely think dysphoria hurts in and of itself. It's just that I'm kind of skeeved out by the premise of assuming "what if we could use nanobots to make trans people stop being trans," and I wanted to bring things back more towards pointing out that a magic brain re-writer isn't a goal worth paying attention to, and emphasizing the social aspects of dysphoria was part of that attempt. For what it's worth, I'm transgender, so yeah, I absolutely agree that dysphoria sucks, and that's also why I'm probably taking this a little personally, especially since it seems to be coming at it from "why can't we use psychiatry to make people stop being trans," except using nanobots instead of whatever other methods have been tried. OwlFancier posted:It can be argued that religion is a social construct and thus constitutes an external force, but you can make that same argument for about 90% of the concept of gender as well. We internalize both. I agree and think this is a very good point.
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Dec 31, 2014 01:09
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Torka posted:I completely see where you're coming from now, sorry for getting a little combative. Nah, it's cool, you didn't come off as combative to me, and you gave me an opportunity to clarify my position. I'm admittedly a little sensitive about discussions of trans issues in some spaces, because they're often less about "how do we help trans people," and more about "aren't trans people crazy lol" (I'm not trying to imply that anyone in this thread has been claiming that). KillHour posted:You're missing the point of the thread. The OP was pretty clear that they wanted to discuss the ethical issues around modifying someone's perception of self, not whether such a thing was possible. Again, I'm just wondering why gender dysphoria was picked as the debate topic, instead of say, depression or anorexia or whatever.
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Dec 31, 2014 01:33
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| # ¿ May 14, 2024 20:50 |
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OwlFancier posted:Why would you cut off someone's foot for no reason? What purpose does that serve? Hey honey, I know when you left this morning, we had a brand new mixed-race girl, but I did the numbers and that's suboptimal, and I just hate the pain racism causes so much, y'know, so ta-da, I changed her into a white boy. Also he now loves making money and also football, because I love football, and not sharing interests with your parents would be a senseless emotional pain. OwlFancier posted:The question would be whether it is ethical to decide to use people as sacrificial lambs on the altar of social acceptance, to knowingly give someone a life you know is going to be hard, in the hopes that it will make future lives less hard. Is it ethical to make one person suffer for the hopeful good of many? Two black parents: we had an abortion because it would be a betrayal of trust to make a black baby. Therefore we'll adopt a white one so as not to make a sacrifice on the altar of social acceptance.
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Dec 31, 2014 02:38
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