Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Any UK people been to the Draughts cafe yet? Thinking of going over the festive period, and I've checked when its open, but interested in knowing if there's a need to get there early or any thoughts to what it is like.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Mmmm, well I'll probably end up going on Sunday anyway. Would be interesting to see what the problem was, as part of the draw for me is the access to the library of games, and if I get the chance to try some games I've heard of with my friend, I can overlook a crappy venue.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
I can see why an established board games group with the games available between them may not be fussed about it. I guess we could look into attending the meetup but feels a bit weird going and asking strangers to try their games, whereas an open library sorts that out.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Aston posted:

I've just had a look at their selection on their website: 10 different versions of Munchkin and no Space Alert.

Space Alert strikes me as not a great game to play in a cafe full of other people. You either can't hear the soundtrack for the other people or your game is drowning out others. Yeah it might be possible to find a balance, but does the venue provide the means to play the CD? Sounds best to just let one game go then have staff manage sound disputes.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

ConfusedUs posted:

I mentioned in this thread that we've half-heartedly pretended a virus was zombies in Pandemic.

Well, let me tell you, once you go whole-hog with that concept, Pandemic becomes the best zombie board game ever made. You can do it with just a handful of house rules.

House Rule #0: This is the only one really required. Rename the four viruses after different kinds of zombies. We chose:

Fast Zombies
Slow Zombies
Voodoo Zombies
And my son christened the last one "atomic zombies" and said they glow in the dark. Kinda weird, but it made for some creepy stories later!

House rule #1: when outbreaks occur, every player in an affected city has to narrate or describe some kind of zombie action.

House rule #2: If possible, give a name from some kind of popular zombie movie/book/show to your character. I was a Dispatcher, and named myself "Metsfan" after the never-seen radio operator from that one story in the World War Z book.

House rule #3: if you lose the game, you have to describe your character's last stand.

Hi Felicia!

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Does it use the same art as the Eastern European versions? I heard new art was being commissioned for the French version...

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Tekopo posted:



Say hello to Wreckie, Destroyer of Shops.

Whenever someone buys him there are always sharp intakes of breath, worried looks and prophecies such as 'Well, you had a nice shop until now...'

I was very keen on picking up Dungeon Lords (when the KS was running, I was tempted but think it came to £60-70) but had a worry about how to interest my friend to build a dungeon and fight off a D&D party. I had only heard Dungeon Petz by name and that name makes me think DS shovelware. I'm now starting to think that might be the one to get. I seem to remember Tepoko saying he enjoyed it more, but that was before he got his new shinies!

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Seems like my local store has picked up the Babel expansion to 7 Wonders out of nowhere. Guess that solves the present dilemma for the 7W players I know. I couldn't decide between Leaders and Cities and may have left it too late to get something.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Is the Galaxy Trucker app any good for multiplayer, either single app or two devices? Does it work even if you've not played the physical version.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Can someone explain how the app deals with the in real time building of the ships, on multi and single device? Is it the standard pulling tiles from a grid in real time?

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Having decided to buy the Babel expansion to 7 Wonders for someone for Christmas, it just seems silly when I'm standing there and it costs £27 for a somewhat small addition to a game, and new highly rated games sit by either cheaper (Splendor) or a bit more expensive games (Suburbia and many others) sit by which offer something completely new for a little bit more. Goddamn you board games, why price your expansions so high? I look at the other expansions for games I have (Pandemic, Carcassonne, Escape) and their minor mechanic adding functions are nearly full price. Very hard to consider it worth the money to pick up. The RRP of £30 on an Escape expansion is an absolute joke.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Do you think it adds enough to the base game to be worth getting over another game? Genuine question, not loaded. The additions looks interesting but by the looks of it you'd only play the Tower or the Projects and they just add another consideration when selecting cards. Which has big consequences and all but doesn't look that game altering.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Big McHuge posted:

I'm not a huge fan of the Babel expansion (haven't tried the Projects, just the tower). We regularly play with both Leaders and Cities, and while those give you extra things to do and help provide direction to your strategy, I feel like Babel gives you too much. To me, it added a bit too much complication to a game that was actually pretty elegant. I'll try it out a few more times just to make sure, but I'm not in any kind of rush to do so.

Yeah this is the kind of thing I'd heard. Yeah Babel gets decent reviews, but its hard to think its worth picking up with Splendor next to it and cheaper (as in new other rated game) or that it could go to something bigger.

Reviews have been kind to it but I rarely see price considered in that summary. O know SUSD pointed out how little you get for Escape expansion for the price, but I don't see much more than that.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Dominant Species any good? I've seen a run through of it and it looked pretty decent. £16 sale price seemed pretty decent.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Hmmm, I don't remember the box having The Card Game written on it. How big is the proper version? This wasn't a big box game but it was fairly bigger than a pack of cards. Looked like it would have room for a few decks and hexes, but in very efficient packaging. But it could have been just cards.

I think is usually sold for double but it was on Christmas sale because they couldn't shift it. This is a small game store. I'll have to head back and check now.

Cutthroat isn't really my groups thing, but we could do with a cracking worker placement (Tzolkin was also there for 35, but that's close to normal price).

Edit: aaaah the box is supposedly over 2kg, and this one definitely wasn't. Must be the card game. Denied.

Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Dec 31, 2014

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Jesus, $44 for Dungeon Lords. I want!

I'm thinking of making some foamboard inserts for a couple of my games, specifically Tash Kalar + expansion, but possibly also Twilight Struggle. Are they any good guides or resources or plans for specific games?

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
A quick round-up of games I played over the festive season.

Medina: An interesting 'lay pieces in grid' game like Go or Othello (is there a name for these type of games), which was described as a giant game of chicken and lives up to that. Players try to claim a palace of each of the four colours, but are compelled to make two moves a turn which may involve claiming or making them bigger. I don't think I'd ever buy this but would happily play again.

Roborally: Silly silly fun, Race robots around a machine factory floor with conveyor belts, but you programme their moves at the start, if they get moved on the way they will still follow their old orders with fun results.

Survive: This worked pretty well as a 3 player game, and was good looking enough to attract more players. But then we played with 6 players. Don't play this game with 6 players.

Skull: Surprise hit of the season. Its essentially a filler but we probably spent more time playing this than any other game. My brother bought this so I'm pleased to have ready access to this, but I may make a homebrew version for playing in a pub or with friends.

Dixit 5: This may be the first game I own that I sell. My gf likes Dixit and my brother had Dixit 2 so we were looking for more cards. I didn't like the art style of 3 and 4 but 5 looked good. The art is nice if not generally dark, but too many of the cards are just really hard to do anything with. And most of the table felt that about their hands.

Surburbia: We got this because Ludwig wasn't in stock. I like it a lot, and want to play more. The initial regret I felt about how the theme would appeal less to some, is diminished somewhat by thinking the master builder phase may cause some issues with people I play with. Surburbia works fine though, and is good as a different kind of game.


Going to Draughts on Sunday, hoping to try some new games.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
We played it as just Dixit 5 with the plan to use Dixit 2 cards with it in later uses. If the cards aren't much use, its not much of a solution to just add other decks, when we could just use the other decks only.

Also, as Dixit 5 is the only version I own, that's not an option when playing with anyone who doesn't also own the game.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

SuccinctAndPunchy posted:

Naaah man, I know I'm very obviously biased in my love for the game but if someone finds 7 Wonders too hard to play then they're probably not the sort with whom playing board games is worth it in the first place.

the symbology can be confusing but just give the new guy the cheat sheet to look at while he's playing and it's no problem at all, I still get mixed up on all that bullshit that Cities and Leaders threw in.

I think 7 Wonders is fine for an inquisitive person who actively wants to play board games and therefore doesn't mind actively learning the rules and paying attention.

But for a game to lure people into better board games who may be resistant or looking for reasons not to (and its easy to say they aren't worth playing with but that doesn't stop the question), a more user-friendly game like Carcassonne or Ticket to Ride is better. I would also throw out King of Tokyo for those who want a bit more action theme-wise.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
I got to try out the Draughts café in London on Sunday. Got there at 10:30am and there were only a few people there, so it was easy to grab a table and some games. The layout of the place is good, and £5 entry fee is pretty fair.

They ran out of food by 12pm, and you’re not allowed to bring food in. By food I mean premade sandwiches (£5) and small bags of popcorn (£4.50). I’m all for non-Cola/Pepsi soft drinks but their ‘local’ brands of cola and lemonade were pretty disgusting. When asking for water, they came in tiny glasses, I’m guessing because they charge for bottled water. I get that they make their income from the food, but it’s still pretty stiff.

The place was packed by 1pm and stayed like that until the evening. Around 5pm they started playing music, which confused me as it had been getting harder to hear people anyway due to the crowds. I did enjoy it there though and would go again, I just wish they could rejig their business model a bit.

Terror in Meeple City and The Resistance: First time I played both, both went down fantastically and I want to play them again.

Dixit Jinx: Just dull dull dull.

Dead of Winter: Before this,  I played a forum game, found it pretty unbalanced and questionable, despite the decent theme. Playing it in real life had the downside of a long set-up and put away time. The unbalanced mess of the game did not make up for this. I was the betrayer in a 5 player group, but we still didn’t stand a chance even when I was TRYING to help them win so the game would go on long enough to vaguely possibly collect the 6 food cards I needed to get my secret objective. The idea that the set-up for the game is the same whether it was 5v0 or 4v1 is horrible, and the Crossroads cards inevitably screw you over but are again just occur randomly. The only positive I can say is that I now know I don’t want to play it ever again.

Caverna: I liked it but I also had to ‘teach’ it when we went along having just watched one runthrough. I think a smaller/simpler worker placement game would have been better for the occasion. But it’s always tough playing and learning such a long game in one go, I can only imagine how I’d feel if I played Twilight Struggle for the first time under similar circumstances.

Galaxy Trucker: Good but I was rushed and playing 2p with my bro and we both had the app anyway, so apart from the ship-building, all the book-keeping of the trip felt like a hassle. First World Board Game Problems! We should get it out for 3-4 players I think.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Tekopo posted:

How was transport to there, btw? Was it easy/difficult to get to if you are, for example, in central London?

Well, I drove, which isn't much use to you. But my brother took the overground, regular enough services to south London, 30 mins, no problem. Its right outside the station so shouldn't be too difficult to get to. Don't know how Central you are but if you can get on that Overground route it shouldn't be a problem.

To the other person who responded about how London on Board is better, I think it comes down to circumstance. I don't live in London and so I grab a few people and we made a big day of it like it was an amusement park where we could ride anything we wanted. So I need to be there for a long time to make the journey worth it. London on Boars was good when I had to go to London for work and could get a few hours in after 6pm, but its too short to be worth it for me, and we would be at the whim of other people's selections.

Not that I wouldn't go to London On Boars again if I'm in London anyway. I hope to take Tekopo up on his Napoleon's Triumph offer, that is if he doesn't instantly regret it based on my play speed over Christmas!

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Now I want there to be a London On Boars.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
My first and only game so far of Caverna ended with me on 55 points and my opponent had 45 or so. Just wondering how those scores were for new players who barely knew the rules and only picked up buildings at the end, so no minmaxing of any kind took place.

Oh my board game life. Excitedly get TK expansion for Christmas, more family orientated games took up the festive period, now I have noone to try the expansion deck with! Bah!

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Zveroboy posted:

Last night the scores for us first timers where 42, 55 and 62. The owner of the game got a round 100 points.

Myself and the 55-pointer were floundering around a bit in the sea of options and didn't manage a clear strategy, 62 kept his food running on the wire but built a load of ruby mines and pretty much had the entire stack of rubies to himself. Winner went in hard with adventuring dorfs and just kept raking it in.

Yeah it kinda felt like adventuring could be kinda strong since it allows you to get a great deal of things, but I can't really comment after one game.

My tactic was to get a bit of everything to help learn about what things did, but ultimately I did a bit more of living out the life I always dreamed of having: tearing down forests to breed donkeys, and have wild pigs breed in my front room.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Zveroboy posted:

Board Game Thread 2015: "Oh, like those games Sheldon plays?"

I once caught the start of a Big Bang episode while changing channels and I paused because Sheldon had designed his own board game and was explaining it to the others. It took one line from him to turn to my partner and say "I don't believe someone like Sheldon would design a game that used a roll-to-move mechanic" and she stared at me blankly and I realised what I had become.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

echoMateria posted:


The store I'm preparing an order for Tash-Kalar: Arena of Legends – Everfrost + upgrade pack has a copy of Medina and I wonder if should grab a copy. What are the opinions on it? It kinda looks like a sequel to Through the Desert to me.

I liked Medina, it scratched a similar itch to TK for me. I played it as 4 players though, think it would probably work better with more.

Got to play with the TK expansion finally. A 3 player deathmatch, there didn't seem to be many combat moves available, and there were quite a few cards that set up little tricks like the mirror or the switching of pieces but I could never use them properly. May need a few more tries, or better in High Form.

My local game shop is selling that Shadow Crossfire game for £20, which seems quite cheap and I think that's the one that was Rahdo's game of the year, and if that means he plays it with his wife, I could play that with my partner and that would be a Good Thing.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Is the Tigris and Euphrates app good for learning the game. And playing on a 4 inch phone?

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Thanks for the T&E mobile thoughts. The screen is big enough for Galaxy Trucker, so hopefully big enough for T&E.

I see there are a fair few free backgammon apps on Android, any recommendations?

Will probably also look at that solo game someone posted and give feedback.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Castles of Burgundy has been fairly cheap for a while on BBGuru (£19 which would be akin to $19), I recall hearing good things but know nothing about the game. Any words?

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Burgundy is tempting me as a light dice chucker. Its just so soon after Christmas, I'm tempted to buy it and lock it away until other games like Suburbia or Tash Kalar have cooled down.

I just picked up Spotify Premium and thinking of making a Twilight Struggle playlist. There's one already but I'm thinking a bit more mood setting than songs with titles about nuclear war. To date, my friend and I have been listening to the original Red Alert soundtrack but if anyone has any suggestions for either US or soviet songs that's give a feel of the time or the theme let me know, as I plan to alternate them. Currently thinking the national anthems, Times They Are A Changin', When Johnny Goes Marching On and inevitably We'll Meet Again.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Lord Frisk posted:

If you wait for a sale, you can buy CoB for like $20. Don't bite the bullet just yet.

Also, post a link when you make that soundtrack. I love a good soundtrack for games. We played Eclipse with the OSTs for the Star Trek movies in the background.

It is on sale already, at £19, which in US terms is like $19. I've never seen it lower in Europe.

I'll be sure to add the soundtrack here, hope some people will be into it. Challenge is to make it long enough to last a whole game!

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Mister Sinewave posted:

I don't know how a Cold War soundtrack should be anything other than 80's music but to each their own :confused:

Because I, by and large, hate 80s music and am looking more for US v USSR anthems, or sneaky spy stuff. And avoiding songs that don't suit the mood but have a vaguely applicable title (anything by REM).

That YouTube list had some good ideas on it though.

No word of a lie, I've played Pandemic to a revolving list of songs including Fever, Stayin' Alive, and Dr Jones by...the Cartoons.

Edit: and Ring of Fire by Johnny Cash

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Aston posted:

I'm going to draughts, a board game cafe in London tomorrow. Anything in particular I should look out for to play, that's good in a "try it once but don't buy" kind of way?

Get there early. Between midday and 1 it started getting hard to see a free table.

Check the website for the list of games. For a business started on Kick starter, they have surprisingly little web presence. They have a blog, but only two posts since they started in November.

Eat a big breakfast.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
This was touched on a page back or so but this is something that bothers me about some board games and I want to say it loud and proud.

I get that there must be people there who like it but I really dislike the ongoing medieval European town/province naming convention and setting for games, and I find it a barrier sometimes to get a game to get others to play. Since most of the time the name of the area has nothing to do with the mechanic, it feels like they are going through a checklist.

Carcassonne gets a pass.

I asked earlier about Castles of Burgundy. I will eventually get it and will certainly get people who game to play it. But the board looks a bit dull and it just feels like the done thing in theme is just to attach farming and settlement building. I will get over it but this makes it a hard sell, no wonder new people go for things like Betrayal or Munchkin.

It really struck me watching a review for Orleans, and maybe because it is so recent and yet the same 'regional name with no connection' being done again ticked me off. The mechanic looks interesting but aaaargh the look and the theme, it just seems really old hat and lacks creativity.

Then again there are loads of sci-fi and fantasy settings and they don't bother me as much, but probably because the naming convention isn't so ruddy lazy ('Pluto', 'Haley's Comet', 'Tatooine').

Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Jan 27, 2015

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!

Lorini posted:

These games are enjoyed for their mechanics. Don't look for theme or reasoning because that's not what sells the game. The mechanics sell the game. If that's not what you are looking for, that's fine, but getting ticked off about it is a waste of energy.

I think you're missing the point. Mechanics may sell a game to establishes gamers, but the unestablished are a big market and such an uninspiring theme makes it harder to coax people in, in my experience.

Your thing about what I'm looking for seems odd since I already said that the mechanics look good, I am lamenting the uninspiring repetition that can affect game choice with other people. This is a problem I have had.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
I think that Secret Objective breakdown is pretty much spot on. It seems a lazy bit of design to have an element in a game be forceably secret, but would actually benefit the co-op group to share. Its secret because the rules say so, but the rules say so because it would be a basic strategy and too easy otherwise. I think you can tell the mechanics get mashed in to fit the theme.

I visited Draughts again on a whim on Saturday. I got there at 11:15am and got the second to last table, and there was always a queue for tables from 11:30pm onwards. Consider that if you intend on going.

What am I missing with Quantum? I read the rules. I rolled two 3s and a 4. To win the game I need to lay down all the quantum cubes I have, but the rules say that from the 5 of my colour, that two of them are for bigger games and so I have 3, and I start with one built anyway. This meant I could build the other two quantum cubes within 3 turns (both neighbouring planet were 7) with nothing my opponent could do. Even if he could, it pretty trivial to build two cubes. What rule am I getting wrong here?

Played Five Tribes. Glad I played it, but it doesn’t quite work for me. It’s just too mathsy, and I love maths. Every turn seems to be just the player staring at the board trying to quickly tot up all the possible current combinations and 1-2 combinations, and attribute the starting bids accordingly. Me and my buddy don’t really get AP, we prod eachother after too long and are happy to have a clock for games like these, but when the bulk of the work is mathsing over a 5*6 square and all the possibilities, then the game has to be quick. If it was 30 mins, that would have been fine, but it was about an hour and I was willing it to end from 30 mins onwards. The theme is very much pasted on, the abstract notion of moving tribes around does not really tie into what is happening. I also think the board tiles should be more interesting or colour co-ordinated, not just varying shades of beige. My rough thought is that it should be 4*4 or 4*5 to shorten both thinking time and overall game length.

Tried to convince buddy to play Castles of Burgundy. While he wouldn’t say no, he clearly thought it looked very dull. I’ve commented on that before.

We had a really good time with Memoir 44 though. I can tell it’s just a light gateway game to that kind of thing, so its subject more to the variance of dice and card drawing. But the theme and mechanic worked well, and we liked the variance scenarios. Might pick this up if I find it at a good price.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Ahhh that makes sense. I should have guessed, although it seems awkwardly written by saying take 5 cubes and leave two in the box. My own fault though.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
^^^^
I've used 20 mins a round chess clocks in Twilight Struggle with great success.

Aston posted:

Huh, weirdly enough I was there at that time too. On a second impression, I still quite like it but it gets incredibly loud once it's full up. We were all feeling a bit hoarse at the end of the day, and I was in actual pain from having to read the rules, teach and then play Dominant Species.

I completely agree, i like it but from 2pm till I leave I have to really raise my voice and my throat feels sore. Even worse when reading rules out half the time. Not Mich they can do about it, its a sign of it being more popular than the premises they have. I just wish it wasn't so noisy. I would suggest they don't bother with playing music though, as I think it adds to a loudness war and none can hear it anyway.

One other thing I forgot to mention. When I left at around 7pm I had a scan of the games bring played. There were 2 games of CaH, Jenga and Settlers each being played. Some of the games on the shelf must be tearing up at that.

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
I know the Top Ten Lists is supposed to be somewhat casual but for someone who has been doing this for years, Vasel can't construct an argument very well. About Thurns and Taxis (which I have never played so have no bias towards)

"Its just using cards to connect points on a map with lines"
"...just like Ticket to Ride which you love"
"No no, its bad"

Sure, when you split games down to what they basically do, you can make anything sound terrible, but that DOES sound like TtR, and I thought he'd be able to explain why its different. But then he'd have to go back on his reductive narrative so

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Fat Turkey
Aug 1, 2004

Gobble Gobble Gobble!
Urgh, you're tempting me to buy Keyflower.

There is a Kickstarter which compromises of custom wooden meeples for games. Fair enough. But in many cases the wooden replacements are worth multiples of the original game. $84 to make your TtR trains wooden. $110 to make your Dominant Species look like their species. I was going to point out that some people just can't out for business and getting their customers.

Except they raised $18k in about two days. Who...who is buying this? I mean I play Dota2 and there is some laughing at people who spend $30 to make their hero looks sparkly, but at least the original game was free and it gets updates so I can kind of see it but... Who loves TtR enough to triple the cost to get wooden choochoos?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply