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evilweasel posted:Rubio is saying they're going to petulantly refuse to confirm an ambassador or approve funds for an embassy: I love how McConnell said he is going to defer to Rubio which is basically an admission that any GOP opposition to this is toxic as hell. Between this and Rubio's failed immigration plan, his future in politics is questionable.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:41
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evilweasel posted:He's quite old, for life isn't that long at this point. Call me crazy, but I don't expect his successor to relinquish the powers of President-for-Life over to reforms suggested from the US. e: I am mistaken about Castro's position -- my apologies. Majorian posted:What it means is that people on D&D recognize that the US policy towards Cuba has done nothing to staunch the human rights violations or authoritarianism, and has probably helped make them possible. Any hope for democracy and human rights in Cuba is going to require a drastic change in our policy. I don't understand how this would be our responsibility. Why can't those in power understand the need for not violating the human rights of its own people and a form of government that recognizes the voice of their own people? Your wording makes it sound like they are innocent or naive of their own wrongdoing.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:41
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evilweasel posted:Rubio is saying they're going to petulantly refuse to confirm an ambassador or approve funds for an embassy: They said that about his nominee for Surgeon General, and while maybe Ebola pushed it through, I doubt they really would've given in unless it was just a show for constituents.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:41
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I don't understand how this would be our responsibility. Correct - which is why the embargo was such a terrible idea in the first place.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:43
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I don't understand how this would be our responsibility. Why can't those in power understand the need for not violating the human rights of its own people and a form of government that recognizes the voice of their own people? Your wording makes it sound like they are innocent or naive of their own wrongdoing. I can't understand what you're trying to argue you here. You obviously want the embargo to continue - what good do you think it's doing and why, considering you don't think fixing Cuba should be our responsibility?
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Dec 17, 2014 19:43
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This offers a lot of opportunities for a deprived nation, I hope that America learns a lot from the cuban people and reforms their system. Offering citizens decent medical care would be a great way to improve the lives of all those held captive between mexico and canada.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:45
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Should the United States embargo every non-liberal democratic country? The world economy would be doomed.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:46
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GlyphGryph posted:I can't understand what you're trying to argue you here. You obviously want the embargo to continue - what good do you think it's doing and why, considering you don't think fixing Cuba should be our responsibility? I really have no position on it, because I don't know enough about Cuba and the embargo. I really am trying to understand the reasoning of those for and against it. Although, looking back at it, repeatedly playing Devil's Advocate does get grating, so I apologize for that. What I'm trying to understand is the advantages of dropping the embargo for both the US and Cuba.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:48
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CommieGIR posted:They said that about his nominee for Surgeon General, and while maybe Ebola pushed it through, I doubt they really would've given in unless it was just a show for constituents. The Surgeon General got though because Reid abolished the filibuster for nominations, the Republicans didn't give in. However now that the Republicans control the Senate, nominees won't even get a vote.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:48
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radical meme posted:Can someone refresh my memory and tell me what act of terrorism Cuba has actually sponsored, ever? I know about the Cuban missile crisis but, anything else? Didn't they send troops to Angola but, that was 30 years ago. Ilich Ramírez Sánchez (as far as misinformed Americans are concerned)
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Dec 17, 2014 19:53
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I really have no position on it, because I don't know enough about Cuba and the embargo. I really am trying to understand the reasoning of those for and against it. Although, looking back at it, repeatedly playing Devil's Advocate does get grating, so I apologize for that. What I'm trying to understand is the advantages of dropping the embargo for both the US and Cuba. The embargo has only served to hurt poor Cubans; the wealthy and powerful really haven't been affected all that much by it. This, combined with the Bay of Pigs debacle, makes it easy for the Cuban government to paint the West as enemies, and naturally the average Cuban believes them, because why wouldn't they? Opening up relations with Cuba would allow poor Cubans to get some economic relief, travel abroad, receive US and other Western media, purchase Western-made consumer goods, and possibly spur them to demand better standards of living from the Castro regime.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:55
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I don't think Carlos received much support from Cuba past the 60s, it was mainly middle eastern countries. They refused him asylum in the 80s. Cuba definitely supported leftist guerrillas in Latin America and Africa until the late 80s, but hasn't done any of that since the Cold War.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:56
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I really want to see wave polling on this, not just generational - measuring Cuban-born sentiment by time spent in the US, cross-tabbing on year of entry. Media tends to look at polls about older Cubans and assume they all came over in 59-60.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:57
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Embargo is more a thing you threaten and do temporarily to get the point you mean business, it isn't a long term strategy for regime change or bringing about a magical freedom loving democracy. That just doesn't happen. For that to happen it requires sincere, grassroots momentum and support internally from the populace, and often over a long period of time. The old guard die off or retire letting the next generation push forward. Deliberately isolating a country and its people only hurts and plays into the Us vs Them narrative mentality, helping to keep jerkbags in power with solidarity. Shitbags like Rubio basically have no idea what they are doing or why they are doing it. They just know Obama bad, petty politics, be an idiot while giving no fucks about actual Cubans. Removing the embargo is probably the biggest step forward in making their quality of life improve they could do in the short term.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:02
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I love how these politicians are so worried about the Cuban communists yet have no problem using their sausage fingers to type on their phones made in the largest communist country in the world with not the best record on human rights. I simply can't comprehend it.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:06
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Should the United States embargo every non-liberal democratic country? The world economy would be doomed. We should embargo every non-liberal nation which seizes illegally American property.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:06
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My Imaginary GF posted:We should embargo every non-liberal nation which seizes illegally American property. US to embargo US in new recursive embargo policy announced today. Native Americans shocked but hopeful that this impossible turn of events will return things to normal after near three hundred years of misfortunes.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:14
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My Imaginary GF posted:We should embargo every non-liberal nation which seizes illegally American property. It's a little late for that disingenuous argument. Cuba offered to repay for the seized property repeatedly in exchange for lifting the embargo.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:16
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My Imaginary GF posted:We should embargo every non-liberal nation which seizes illegally American property. At various points almost every country in Latin America has nationalized property owned by American businesses. Should we have an embargo on Mexico for nationalizing oil in the 30s? Brazil in the 50s? Venezuela? Bolivia? Chile? Argentina? All have nationalized American owned property and never returned it.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:17
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:At various points almost every country in Latin America has nationalized property owned by American businesses. Should we have an embargo on Mexico for nationalizing oil in the 30s? Brazil in the 50s? Venezuela? Bolivia? Chile? Argentina? All have nationalized American owned property and never returned them. Yeah but they aren't communist.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:19
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My Imaginary GF posted:We should embargo every non-liberal nation which seizes illegally American property. To be fair Cuba doesn't really recognize our ownership of Gitmo either.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:19
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BetterToRuleInHell posted:I keep seeing the sentiment here in D&D that the opposition to this deal is coming from aging Cubans and/or from older Cuban generations. Does that mean that the human rights violations and government control no longer exist? Human rights violations haven't stopped us from having diplomatic relations with other countries. It's widely thought that US policy on Cuba, at this point, has been mostly driven by the presence of a large number of Castro-hating exiles in major areas of an important swing state. It's no surprise Rubio is leading the opposition - the most anti-Castro demographic in the country is concentrated in his constituency. radical meme posted:Can someone refresh my memory and tell me what act of terrorism Cuba has actually sponsored, ever? I know about the Cuban missile crisis but, anything else? Didn't they send troops to Angola but, that was 30 years ago. They nationalized property that had been owned by American businesses - the worst crime imaginable.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:27
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evilweasel posted:I think it's safe to say the embargo is staying, for now. Doesn't look positive, but I'm not ready to put a nail in it until there's been time for everyone with a potential financial stake in it to do their thing. Also, quote:“We have a Cuban-American expert, Marco Rubio..." 
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Dec 17, 2014 20:31
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I'm honestly surprised there's people in here who're taking a pro-american stance. Like, there's no way Cuba isn't the way it is because of America. America is morally irredeemable. Still, cuba survived alright even under the embargo, and they're smart, they watched the USSR dissolve and turn into a shithole and they're wiser than that. I'd be incredibly surprised if they let americans smear neoliberalism everywhere and gently caress everything up.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:36
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CommieGIR posted:This will be great if this happens.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:37
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HorseLord posted:I'm honestly surprised there's people in here who're taking a pro-american stance. Like, there's no way Cuba isn't the way it is because of America. America is morally irredeemable. The embargo made it easier and was at best ineffectual but the government always had the option of ending its repression and human rights abuses.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:40
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Pretending the embargo ever had anything to do with Cuba's repression and human rights abuses is silly. As far as authoritarian regimes go Cuba was very mild and the US has been close friends with much, much worse. Hell the US secretly backed the Khmer Rouge.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:47
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I'm really excited about relations normalization, I think Cuba is long overdue, and I hope Iran is next. I'm not sure if I'm too naive, but I'm really exited about throwing away old stupid grudges and living in a world without "Enemies" anymore. (god drat it Putin)
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Dec 17, 2014 20:48
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Pretending the embargo ever had anything to do with Cuba's repression and human rights abuses is silly. As far as authoritarian regimes go Cuba was very mild and the US has been close friends with much, much worse. Hell the US secretly backed the Khmer Rouge. Well, yeah - the embargo neither mitigated nor increased Cuba's human rights issues. It did however provide a ready-made enemy.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:50
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The Warszawa posted:The embargo made it easier and was at best ineffectual but the government always had the option of ending its repression and human rights abuses. Um, are you suggesting with a straight face that the US cares about repression and human rights abuses? That the embargo was primarily about that?
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Dec 17, 2014 20:50
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Josh Earnest said at the press briefing that they aren't ruling out a visit by Obama to Cuba. 
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Dec 17, 2014 20:50
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You're not living in a world without enemies until you stop trying to be the winner.Sheng-ji Yang posted:Pretending the embargo ever had anything to do with Cuba's repression and human rights abuses is silly. As far as authoritarian regimes go Cuba was very mild and the US has been close friends with much, much worse. Hell the US secretly backed the Khmer Rouge. "Secretly"
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Dec 17, 2014 20:51
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Sharkie posted:Um, are you suggesting with a straight face that the US cares about repression and human rights abuses? That the embargo was primarily about that? No, I'm replying to a post that said "Cuba is how it is because of America." American policy towards Cuba did not cause human rights abuses by the Cuban government, nor did it alleviate or end them. I'm not really opining on the intent behind the policy.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:52
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Pinterest Mom posted:Oh my god Pope Francis: "I did" Joementum posted:Josh Earnest said at the press briefing that they aren't ruling out a visit by Obama to Cuba. Commence the "Nixon to China" comparisons in 5...4... Trollbama is quickly becoming the best Obama. He truly is at his best when he's making the right poo poo blood. Although this would be different because Obama's already a Communazimarxifascist.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:52
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The Warszawa posted:No, I'm replying to a post that said "Cuba is how it is because of America." American policy towards Cuba did not cause human rights abuses in Cuba, nor did it alleviate or end them. Oh gently caress your pissy american "human rights". Yeah they can't earn shitloads of money and buy the media. boo hoo. The castros are evil monsters for guaranteeing poor people a minimum standard of medical treatment and nutrition. How dare they deprive them of the right to starve and die in debt over easily treated diseases. The thing that actually matters is that cuba can't access it's natural closest trade partner, and that absolutely hosed them up, and it's absolutely america's fault.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:53
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I could maybe see Kerry but Obama going to Cuba would be insane
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Dec 17, 2014 20:53
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So historically speaking, did Castro get the last laugh? I wonder now whether his political legacy will be of one of the hardest fuckers who managed to lead his country to outlast one of the harshest sanction regimes in human history, and managed to let his brother get on with the process of normalization and reform without giving up the system he put in place. I wonder if the Castro regime will manage to turn Cuba into a half-way decently developed country now that the sanctions are coming off, that should be a good barometer on his legacy.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:55
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If a Clancy fanfic came true and Obama was captured and held captive there how many of our countrymen would jizz all over their TV screens
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Dec 17, 2014 20:55
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Al-Saqr posted:So historically speaking, did Castro get the last laugh? In terms of foreign policy? Absolutely. He outlived every member of the CIA and Executive Branch who tried to have him killed. Domestic policy? Maybe, but the only people who got hurt were ordinary Cubans.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:58
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There's a couple of interesting things in this picture of Alan Gross at his attorney's office preparing his statement today.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:58
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