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My Lil Parachute posted:Communism fails because the sort of go-getter who works hard to gets things done gets terribly demotivated when those who don't contribute get an equal share. Actually communism mainly fails because it tends to lose the advantages of specialization and it has difficulty avoiding that pitfall because fundamentally communism has seemed to require a top down approach to even try to implement. In a capitalist system there are corrections that happen almost automatically which can't happen if instead of prices you have a guy saying who gets what. Chinese 'communism' is working sort of kind of because they basically just have political control of industry but the industry still basically operates like it does in a capitalist society. Whether this is an improvement over western capitalism is something we'll have to see as their per capita GDP continues to rise. This isn't communism vs capitalism though, it's really just a question of the appropriate 'default' level of government regulation within a capitalist society. quote:In my experience successful small business owners work extraordinarily hard. How many businesses have you been involved in managing? Agreed on that point though.
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Dec 28, 2014 08:28
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Qublai Qhan posted:I'm not really sure there's a (good) way to get rid of the phenomenon of people getting a piece of paper that helps them get jobs that have nothing to do with that piece of paper. Employers are presumably benefiting in some way from requiring people get their BA in basket weaving before they're allowed the privilege of being paid $15-$25 an hour to: Schools screen out a lot of the kind of people you don't want to hire. Schools are allowed to use practically any metric for admission, and then the school puts them through 4 years of coursework. This screening and subsequent ranking is incredibly useful for corporate recruiting.
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Dec 28, 2014 08:29
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My Lil Parachute posted:Communism fails because the sort of go-getter who works hard to gets things done gets terribly demotivated when those who don't contribute get an equal share. Several small businesses. And communism has ways to motivate you 
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Dec 28, 2014 08:32
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on the left posted:Schools screen out a lot of the kind of people you don't want to hire. Schools are allowed to use practically any metric for admission, and then the school puts them through 4 years of coursework. This screening and subsequent ranking is incredibly useful for corporate recruiting. Apparently, I just don't really see it, especially for the price. It just seems like we're spending an awful lot of money on something that doesn't even seem to be a great tool.
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Dec 28, 2014 08:39
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Qublai Qhan posted:Actually communism mainly fails because it tends to lose the advantages of specialization and it has difficulty avoiding that pitfall because fundamentally communism has seemed to require a top down approach to even try to implement. In a capitalist system there are corrections that happen almost automatically which can't happen if instead of prices you have a guy saying who gets what. OTOH people who aren't demotivated by other people earning the same money don't see what the problem is. This group are the main proponents of Communism. Since I consider myself a Randian Superman obviously I see myself as part of group A. SedanChair posted:Several small businesses. quote:And communism has ways to motivate you
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Dec 28, 2014 08:43
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We already said no guillotines, now. I already laid it out; you and your ilk admit to having a mind-virus of unceasing acquisitiveness. Your kids need to be taken away and raised in state creches, far from your endless hunger for things. As for you, you can seek to have more cigarettes than your peers in the re-education camp. That'll keep you cock of the walk.
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Dec 28, 2014 08:52
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My Lil Parachute posted:That too, but I suspect there is a sizable part of any population who will think "Why work harder / use my unique skills / spend time studying when I won't earn more money/recognition than anyone else for it?" . To these people Communism is just an idiotic idea because they assume everyone thinks the same way they do. Yeah this is why people don't like it but I don't think for it to work it's actually a big problem long term to demotivate the people who don't like it.
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Dec 28, 2014 08:54
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First of all, I would like to apologize for any PTSD I may have triggered by using the word network, And for the record, I sound absolutely nothing like this guy http://freekhan.net/Communication.mp3 While I still think removal of the distorting & corrupting force of advertising is our best bet, I would like to also throw out the notion of Price Discrimination as a quick fix. The upper class cover the lost revenue from the lower class, and everyone gets access to all products. Of course that requires the number of products to be divisible by the number of classes. Otherwise you would need to label the money as to which class it came from. But that would just be strange... 
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Dec 28, 2014 10:47
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spacetoaster posted:The son who was raised working in the company and prepared to run it would know quite a bit actually. I doubt the janitor is going to show up the day after the boss's death and just start paying bills, ordering material, and organizing schedules. I doubt a peasant is going to show up the day after the Viscount dies and just start collecting fees, organising the harvest or leading units of heavy cavalry. The first born sons of aristocrats who want to rule their father's desmense know quite a lot. Hereditary aristocracy is the only plausible way to organise local government.
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Dec 28, 2014 11:31
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Vermain posted:No one is, to my knowledge. Can you provide some posts that you believe say this? My particular point isn't that plumbing is a no-skill position that any idiot can do, but that it is not portrayed or emphasized as an important role in society in the same way that upper class professions are. Consequently, fewer people want to take it up as a profession. I know a lot of newly-minted lawyers floundering in an imploded legal jobs market, unable to service their student loans, who'd happily trade their JDs for plumbing licenses.
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Dec 28, 2014 15:32
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spacetoaster posted:Okay. You're talking about huge factories with hundreds (thousands?) of workers. I don't know crap about that. Why would you do that when you can have him trained as a manager and facilitator instead of assuming that sweeping up the shop floor when he was twelve is going to materially prepare him for taking over? Even a tiny, tiny business with workers in the single digits can have ridiculous levels of specialization when it comes to manufacturing. It's also worth noting that small businesses are economically inefficient compared to larger firms.
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Dec 28, 2014 15:54
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SedanChair posted:How about a workers' soviet? It's just a myth that the sons of privilege have some arcane knowledge of "management." Put together all the people who have been running the factory up to this point and they will do fine. The problem is that capital allocation and investment patterns are a bit abstract, although in fairness even in Yugoslavia with workers' self management they could only manage their factory, not invest in infrastructure elsewhere. Cooperatives are also sometimes reluctant to think of the "greater good" and may eventually come to form a new managerial class because exploitation is awesome when you're on the other side of it. Also, workers that are self-managing tend to vote themselves raises and paid vacations with disturbing regularity, as well as call all day meetings to discuss problems of production. A better system might have the collective management decisions done by the parents and grandparents of the workers, since every older generation believes the younger generation is lazy and irresponsible. The biggest mistake unions in the US made was to demand pay raises on the basis of "quality of life" rather than the profit margin of the company they were working for. Steelworkers should've made enough money to buy out all the mills or to start their own, but they were content with 20% raises from time to time rather than wanting a percentage of the whole pie and a real place at the table. Smerdyakov fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 16:00
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Effectronica posted:Keep in mind, plumbers and high-school teachers make about the same amount of money. Plumbers don't get wealthy or even UMC without owning a business or living in a really tony area. This, and part of the reason manual labor is looked down on is because it's really lovely, no pun intended. People that talk about the glory of the forgotten tradesmen don't actually understand what the normal tradesman earns or what they have to go through to earn it.
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Dec 28, 2014 16:35
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joeburz posted:This, and part of the reason manual labor is looked down on is because it's really lovely, no pun intended. People that talk about the glory of the forgotten tradesmen don't actually understand what the normal tradesman earns or what they have to go through to earn it. Ceteris paribus, I'd rather work as a skilled tradesman than as a lawyer. Prestige and esteem are bullshit. I'd even take a small pay cut to work outside, rather than in an office. Student debt has me trapped as a lawyer though.
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Dec 28, 2014 16:47
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TheImmigrant posted:Ceteris paribus, I'd rather work as a skilled tradesman than as a lawyer. Prestige and esteem are bullshit. I'd even take a small pay cut to work outside, rather than in an office. Student debt has me trapped as a lawyer though. I'd wager that health issues reducing quality-of-life and life expectancy are much worse for tradesmen compared to lawyers. I know this is readily apparent between economic strata as a whole, but specifically between the two occupations I don't know of any data off the top of my head.
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Dec 28, 2014 16:57
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TheImmigrant posted:Ceteris paribus, I'd rather work as a skilled tradesman than as a lawyer. Prestige and esteem are bullshit. I'd even take a small pay cut to work outside, rather than in an office. Student debt has me trapped as a lawyer though. Funnily enough, I bought the bullet on this problem and quit after studying law even though it was economically irrational. I just loving hated it. But I'm not saddled with comparable debt to an American as a result. The fees you pay are so catastrophically worse.
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Dec 28, 2014 16:59
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joeburz posted:I'd wager that health issues reducing quality-of-life and life expectancy are much worse for tradesmen compared to lawyers. I know this is readily apparent between economic strata as a whole, but specifically between the two occupations I don't know of any data off the top of my head. Few professions have higher rates of substance abuse and depression than lawyer. I'm a rare lawyer who is relatively happy, and I'm at best ambivalent about the work. I can't imagine another line of work where public perception is so far out of sync with reality. (Example: $45,000 is a much more realistic income than the $160,000 that the elite earn in their first year of BigLaw.) Most lawyers I know would jump out of law at any reasonable opportunity, but after a few years out, it's hard to escape the pigeonhole.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:06
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That's cuz lawyers are dumb. Edit: vv Dumb and liars apparently lol vv Vaginapocalypse fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 17:09
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
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TheImmigrant posted:Few professions have higher rates of substance abuse and depression than lawyer. I'm a rare lawyer who is relatively happy, and I'm at best ambivalent about the work. I can't imagine another line of work where public perception is so far out of sync with reality. Most lawyers I know would jump out of law at any reasonable opportunity, but after a few years out, it's hard to escape the pigeonhole. What? http://www.sapaa.com/page/wp_stats_legal http://www.sapaa.com/page/wp_stats_cn_ex http://www.sapaa.com/page/wp_stats_imr Your perception is literally opposite of reality, legal occupations are below the average in every category. edit: added in installation/maint/repair which probably better describes trade work. esto es malo fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Dec 28, 2014 |
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Dec 28, 2014 17:12
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TheImmigrant posted:I know a lot of newly-minted lawyers floundering in an imploded legal jobs market, unable to service their student loans, who'd happily trade their JDs for plumbing licenses. Well, yes. This is a consequence of a large number of people flooding the legal job market because of the fact that the legal profession has been repeatedly valorized as being an upper class position with all of the attendant respect and wealth. Again, my point is that fewer people pick plumbing jobs because it has not been valorized in the same way socially due to it being seen as a lower class position. Plumbing suddenly being attractive post-graduation is a consequence of the popularity of the legal profession, not the popularity of plumbing.
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Dec 28, 2014 17:42
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So why doesnt everyone in here just abandon their dependents, go back to school in something that will get them a solid job, work for a few years, use their skills to start a business, and then, when only 1/10 of you succeed, that person can use their millions to support changes in their own communities? This problem could be solved in a decade if more people were willing to sacrifice years of their lives for real change instead of whine on the internet. If you were able to go to college, then you're already the kind of person who has the opportunity to do this. Not everyone can be an entrepreneur, or an engineer, etc., but we don't need everyone to be. We only need a certain amount to be willing to put real effort into changing things instead of taking their millions and going home.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:06
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EB Nulshit posted:So why doesnt everyone in here just abandon their dependents, go back to school in something that will get them a solid job, work for a few years, use their skills to start a business, and then, when only 1/10 of you succeed, that person can use their millions to support changes in their own communities? It's easy for people to develop a FYGM attitude. People go in with the best of intentions but once they have money it's easy to make excuses to buy yourself a new dishwasher you don't need instead of helping your old community. It's a flaw in human psychology that's probably better addressed by state action. There's a reason it's so remarkable and newsworthy when someone wealthy donates even 20% of their income to charity.
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Dec 28, 2014 18:15
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bartlebyshop posted:It's easy for people to develop a FYGM attitude. People go in with the best of intentions but once they have money it's easy to make excuses to buy yourself a new dishwasher you don't need instead of helping your old community. It's a flaw in human psychology that's probably better addressed by state action. There's a reason it's so remarkable and newsworthy when someone wealthy donates even 20% of their income to charity. I'm not betting on any Tyler Durdens/liberal Randian superheroes any time soon.
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Dec 29, 2014 01:08
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SedanChair posted:you and your ilk admit to having a mind-virus of unceasing acquisitiveness. Your kids need to be taken away and raised in state creches, far from your endless hunger for things. As for you, you can seek to have more cigarettes than your peers in the re-education camp. That'll keep you cock of the walk. Good point. How much does the government pay for raising other peoples kids? 
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Dec 29, 2014 01:24
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Smerdyakov posted:Stephen J Gould said: quote:We probably shouldn't be so confident that everyone's at full potential and we're totally done reordering society, quote:A class society is defensible if it's adequately permeable and allows for both upward and downward mobility on merit, but the wider the gap between the classes, the less permeable it becomes for large numbers of people who are merely "more capable than who's there already" and not "undeniably extraordinary." All this focus on college seems to me short-sighted. Even if we do make college affordable for everyone, or rework our perceptions of skilled trades, how do we keep these systems alive for future generations and prevent their decay? We had two great political movements in the US to rework capitalism called the New Deal and the Great Society, themselves the product of decades of toil and building pressure from unions and liberal organizations, and slowly but surely they have been eaten away and what is left is in danger of being erased/ In Europe, similar social programs are being slowly edged out and threatened. Even when the supposed boogeyman capitalists get removed from power, they get replaced by assholes that are about as bad or worse than them. It's almost as if there is some kind of innate tendency in humans to dominate each other, regardless of what manifestations they may take, that is the real problem, and every political ideology so far has been doing the equivalent of giving cold medication to a guy with AIDS, or even worse, getting foxes to watch chicken coops. And how do you define "merit", because everybody has a different definition of it when we're dealing with actual workplaces with internal politics. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Dec 29, 2014 |
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Dec 29, 2014 01:42
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spacetoaster posted:Good point. I'm afraid your burn is not decipherable.
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Dec 29, 2014 03:13
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EB Nulshit posted:So why doesnt everyone in here just abandon their dependents, go back to school in something that will get them a solid job, work for a few years, use their skills to start a business, and then, when only 1/10 of you succeed, that person can use their millions to support changes in their own communities? OK, yeah, I'm going to use one million dollars to eliminate class distinctions within the Detroit Metropolitan Area, sure. I guess I could build a decently sweet commune with that kind of money.
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Dec 29, 2014 03:35
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bartlebyshop posted:It's easy for people to develop a FYGM attitude. People go in with the best of intentions but once they have money it's easy to make excuses to buy yourself a new dishwasher you don't need instead of helping your old community. It's a flaw in human psychology that's probably better addressed by state action. There's a reason it's so remarkable and newsworthy when someone wealthy donates even 20% of their income to charity. I think when discussing the successful self-starters we vastly overrate the influence of money and material wealth compared to social status and independence. We look at people richer than us and assume it's all about the money and the physical goods, we assume that must be what motivates them because that's the visible difference between them and us. I think the people who really work to start their own businesses and put in the hours and the stress required to break even are far more motivated by being their own boss. It's the freedom and independence that really motivate, as compared to the money. Someone who has worked to build their business into a success over many years gains enormous status in their own world, they are respected and obeyed in a way most of us outside high government or the military never will be. If people who have become successful aren't taking their wealth back to improve their communities I think it has a heck of a lot to do with them not wanting to go back to kowtowing to other people's wishes. I don't see it as FYGM greed so much as lack of energy and will to go back to the bottom of the ladder and negotiate with people again.
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Dec 29, 2014 03:58
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EB Nulshit posted:So why doesnt everyone in here just abandon their dependents, go back to school in something that will get them a solid job, work for a few years, use their skills to start a business, and then, when only 1/10 of you succeed, that person can use their millions to support changes in their own communities? People spend tons of their own time and money without being millionaires to help their communities. What the hell kind of statement is this even supposed to be?
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Dec 29, 2014 13:20
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joeburz posted:People spend tons of their own time and money without being millionaires to help their communities. What the hell kind of statement is this even supposed to be? Whatever thing they already do in the time left over after they work just to live, it could be done more effectively by multiple people paid full time to do it instead. And if they had a shitload of money, they could hire people.
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Dec 29, 2014 15:41
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EB Nulshit posted:Whatever thing they already do in the time left over after they work just to live, it could be done more effectively by multiple people paid full time to do it instead. And if they had a shitload of money, they could hire people. Greetings. I'm using the millions I made with my "punch therapy massage" program to pay people to not be sexist. What's in your wallet?
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Dec 29, 2014 16:01
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Effectronica posted:Greetings. I'm using the millions I made with my "punch therapy massage" program to pay people to not be sexist. What's in your wallet? Did you study that in college? If you never went to college, congrats, you're off the hook. If you did, then you should drop everything in your life and learn something useful, probably through college, and then use those skills to make millions.
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Dec 29, 2014 16:11
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bartlebyshop posted:It's easy for people to develop a FYGM attitude. I've thought about this a little bit and I agree. This is going to sound ridiculous, but it seems so easy that even a big group of FYGMers (mostly American, college-educated people talking about fixing our class system on the Internet - i.e., people in this thread) don't even realize that they're FYGMers.
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Dec 29, 2014 16:28
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EB Nulshit posted:Did you study that in college? If you never went to college, congrats, you're off the hook. If you did, then you should drop everything in your life and learn something useful, probably through college, and then use those skills to make millions. I've got millions of dollars from it that I'm using to bribe people into pretending they're not sexist. If that isn't doing good in the world I don't know what is!!
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Dec 29, 2014 17:07
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EB Nulshit posted:I've thought about this a little bit and I agree. This is going to sound ridiculous, but it seems so easy that even a big group of FYGMers (mostly American, college-educated people talking about fixing our class system on the Internet - i.e., people in this thread) don't even realize that they're FYGMers. FYGM is kind of a natural reaction when you've worked your rear end off at something. When you've given it sweat, tears, years of your life, etc. To then be told you have to give it up to support others who didn't do that work, by someone who didn't do that work, because **Social Justice** (and that  you didn't earn that because you had ADVANTAGES), is at best going to turn you off to whatever that person is trying to tell you. Also, when you have expenses and you're also trying to make your ends meet it's kind of annoying to be told you should be doing more by someone coasting through their super senior year on their way to moving back in with their parents.IDK. I think that, if approached the right way, people will mostly be a lot more sympathetic and willing to help.
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Dec 29, 2014 17:09
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They didn't earn it though. The government gave it to them.
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Dec 29, 2014 17:10
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wateroverfire posted:FYGM is kind of a natural reaction when you've worked your rear end off at something. When you've given it sweat, tears, years of your life, etc. To then be told you have to give it up to support others who didn't do that work, by someone who didn't do that work, because **Social Justice** (and that Hold on though, you're still giving things up no matter what. If someone is getting mad because they're being asked to spend money on the homeless, or has apoplexy at the very thought that sexism and racism might still be a factor, why are they going to suddenly fork over money or change how they behave because the guy doing it is wearing a suit? For that matter, people that are highly engaged with the system are unlikely to try and change it, either. You didn't see the Rockefellers rushing down to join the Freedom Riders.
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Dec 29, 2014 17:31
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Ancient secret anti-FYGM trick: Don't allow middle class people to segregate themselves. If their children use the public school system it will suddenly become an investment, not robbery. If they see poor people in the morning coming home from a night shift, all tired and in a lovely mood, they will stop being so loving loud about hard work. Once their car gets robbed once or twice and the police tells them that even god himself can't keep junkies away from their crack, they won't have a problem with paying taxes for a drug recovery program or support programs for kids at risk. Parallel societies and isolation is such a huge loving problem. Obviously the wealthy will never move to crackhousen. Social promotion is the way to go, cities can buy a small amount of apartments in nice neighborhoods and rent them out at a low price to poor people. Done, society saved.
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Dec 29, 2014 18:32
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waitwhatno posted:Don't allow middle class people to segregate themselves. How do you suggest this happen? Seems like it would require government to dictate where people may and may not live. Are you comfortable with requiring government analysis of your class before being allowed to live in a certain neighborhood/city/state? I certainly am not.
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Dec 29, 2014 18:43
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waitwhatno posted:Ancient secret anti-FYGM trick: This was tried with busing, whites reconfigured society to escape it. If you try to force them with more drastic means, they'll commit acts of terrorism.
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Dec 29, 2014 18:46
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