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For example: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/02/11/anti-muslim-hate-crimes-are-still-five-times-more-common-today-than-before-911/ http://www.pewforum.org/2003/09/10/poll-two-years-after-911-growing-number-of-americans-link-islam-to-violence/ http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2013/2013-3.pdf Current islamaophobia is unambiguously driven by terrorist attacks, it's not even a question for debate.
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Jun 5, 2015 03:40
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tsa posted:http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2013/2013-3.pdf quote:Careful study of survey data yields a surprising finding: animosity toward Islam since 9/11 has not been driven primarily by fear of terrorism. In fact, despite feeling Anti - Islamic Sentiment and Media Framing Journal of Religion & Society 2 15 (2013) threatened by Islamic fundamentalism immediately after 9/11 , the public actually then expressed more favorable se ntiment toward Islam and Muslim - Americans than at any time before or since. A similar spike in favorable feeling toward Muslim - Americans follow ed London’s 7/7 bombings on July 7, 2005 . Despite their fear, most Americans responded to these attacks not with prejudice, but rather with sympathy for innocent Muslims defamed by the actions of extremists and targeted by retaliatory hate crimes . Similarly , it was only after Americans’ fear of terrorism subsided that they began to reassess Islam in a more negative way . If anything, fear seems inversely related to prejudice in this case . This runs directly counter to the predictions of Terror Management Theory and the experimental findings that support that theory (Das, Bushman, Bezemer, Kerkhof, and Vermeulen) . What explains this counterintuitive outcome?
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Jun 5, 2015 06:01
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Disinterested posted:Someone better equipped than me will have to weigh in, but as I understand it PD or pede is a fairly informal idiomatic way of saying gay in French, and doesn't carry a connotation of meaning pederast now at all, but it is still a bit like 'queer' or another word in English that can be used both aggressively and jokingly and be offensive or not depending on the context of its use. Moreover, as I understand it, that word is drifting towards being more and not less acceptable in colloquial conversation. I believe homosexuel or pederaste is quite an arch and formal way of writing, but French people also say 'gay' and have other softer terms. Basically this. If I insulted the average frenchman of being a "pederastre", he would just not understand. "Pédé" is now entirely disconnected from its etymological root (it would still be extremely homophobic and I strongly recommend not to use that word, unless you can be sure it's not gonna demean someone, like if you're protesting with french speaking homosexuals and are attempting to reclaim the word or some other context of the sort). Also "tantouze" is so much better anyway. (don't use that one either) Anyway, you're right, and the word is only used in this context to show the inherent homophobia of a statement like "we should make a list of all the faggots in the media" and linkening it to the inherent xenophobia of the idea of making a list of the foreigners involved in crime. If you guys have any question about french as a language, french culture or anything else french related, I will be delighted to attempt to answer it, because context is usually important.
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Jun 5, 2015 13:35
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Mormon Star Wars posted:Yeah, so pretty accurate, in other words. It's the same reason why a lot of news organizations bring Anjem Choudary around to represent Muslims. Anjem Choudary's platform is broadly representative of the beliefs of a majority of non-western muslims and a strong plurality of western muslims in certain countries. Why shouldn't he be brought up by news organizations? Representatives of Christian theocratic belief systems are regularly brought onto interviews and used to provide an example of the beliefs of hyperconservative Christians. Is that uniquely unfair to Christians? And if not, why is bringing Anjem Choudary on unfair? The political beliefs of the majority of Muslims in Europe and the Arab world really are as terrible as Choudary's - trying to conceal that through de-facto censorship is a form of infantilizing orientalism. And incidentally, the fact that Anjem Choudary isn't in jail despite brazenly advocating terrorism and the forcible conversion of all non-muslims is a pretty powerful counter-argument to the notion that Muslim religious leaders are unfairly targeted and persecuted by western legal systems. Liberal_L33t fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 20:05
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I like the new thread title. It might prevent people from wandering into the thread and getting depressed when it's not on purpose. In keeping with the “assassin's veto” arm of this horrible, horrible thread, there are two recent unwelcome developments. While the thread was closed, an “atheist” blogger was hacked to death in the streets of Bangladesh. No, not that guy, a different one. No, not that guy either. The CNN headline was “Yet Another Bangladeshi Blogger Hacked to Death” to make it less confusing. That's three since February, and nine in the last two years. The bloggers are on a list of 84 names. The dead ones: Jafar Munshi, Rajeeb Haider, Arif Hossain Dwip, Ziauddin Zakaria Babu, Mamun Hossain, Jagatjyoti Talukder, Avijit Roy, Washiqur Rahman, Ananta Bijoy Das. “Atheist blogger” is probably not an accurate general description. They're secularists, some of them Muslims. And they weren't drawing cartoons. It was just words. And, of course, last week, Boston cops killed that guy they'd been tracking. He'd wanted to behead Pamela Geller but decided that would be too hard, so he'd kill a few cops instead because he was in a hurry. Knife, guns, video – I'm sure you know the rest of this one. So daesh assassins, however incompetent, continue to stalk Geller while she makes hay of it. No winners here. This is an alien v. predator situation. bitey fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 06:53
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It's in places like bangladesh where you can seriously be concerned about Islamism gaining currency. You've got wonder what could seriously reverse it - ever since the rear end fell out of far-leftist/communists groups world wide, the only real opposition to the west in these countries is going to come from far right groups, which are more tolerated because they're not as threatening to business interests. Unless there's a real resurgence there, it's going to get worse and worse. You may end up with some kind of holocaust-equivalent event (like repeats of the Indonesia killings in the 60s - remember what I said about fascists not having many reservations about murder, and how suppressing them was a matter of self-defense? That's what I had in mind).
rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 08:40
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rudatron posted:It's in places like bangladesh where you can seriously be concerned about Islamism gaining currency. You've got wonder what could seriously reverse it - ever since the rear end fell out of far-leftist/communists groups world wide, the only real opposition to the west in these countries is going to come from far right groups, which are more tolerated because they're not as threatening to business interests. Unless there's a real resurgence there, it's going to get worse and worse. You may end up with some kind of holocaust-equivalent event (like repeats of the Indonesia killings in the 60s - remember what I said about fascists not having many reservations about murder, and how suppressing them was a matter of self-defense? That's what I had in mind). Yes, when I'm not depressed enough about this thread I'll go watch Jagal again. Hey, here's a cartoon! Without proper context! And with a lovely translation (mine, somebody please fix). Refugees should remember their childhoods so they would one day demand asylum in France, and of course learn French. “Hey, this kid has what it takes to become a refugee. Let's register him in French class.”
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Jun 6, 2015 08:47
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Uh, sorry. Here's that cartoon.
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Jun 6, 2015 08:50
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bitey posted:(mine, somebody please fix). Caption: "Any refugee worth their salt should have planned since childhood that they would one day seek asylum in France and, therefore, should have learned French." Speech bubble: "Darling, this child has everything it takes to become an asylum seeker, we should register him in French class." This is a bad cartoon because it says it's the responsibility of the child, and yet it's the mother who takes the decision.
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Jun 6, 2015 09:51
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I apologize if any of this is too obvious to mention, but I'm making certain assumptions and I need a reality check. I now clump all political Islam groups (AQ, ISIL, Egyptian Islamic Jihad et al) under the moniker daesh. I also consider “lone wolf” operators inspired by daesh as “daesh.” This does not include ethnic Muslims (who may choose what they believe) or all practicing Muslims (most of them “church folk”). I am only concerned with daesh – the ones claiming territory, the ones circulating hit lists. I consider the global targeted killings of freethinkers as the P.R. wing of daesh. These activities win recruits, and they also distract everybody from the real business of daesh – gaining territory in the Arabian peninsula and elsewhere. In fact, it almost looks like concern trolling to point out that the Hebdo killings were not the worst thing perpetrated by daesh that month, that week, or maybe even that day. Whatever one thinks about Charlie Hebdo, there are a lot of other daesh victims who definitely were not “asking for it.” One does not need to “compare” the Hebdo killings with massacres of entire villages. They're the activities of the same group, conducted toward the same ends. Only the tactics are different. I am not “afraid” of being attacked personally by daesh, nor do I particularly fear terrorist attacks taking place in my general area. I'm pretty comfortable. I do, however, despair for the state of the world in which daesh can advance its ends while some of us debate the relative culpability of daesh's victims because of rude cartoons. The glib hypothetical example of Geller hillbillies invading the homes of Muslims and executing them was especially galling. Who really invades the homes of unarmed Muslims and shoots them in the backs of their heads? Daesh does. These are real victims, not pretend victims. And there are a shitload of them. If I'm wrong about any of this please let me know. Otherwise I'll carry on as usual. bitey fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 10:16
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Cat Mattress posted:Caption: "Any refugee worth their salt should have planned since childhood that they would one day seek asylum in France and, therefore, should have learned French." Thanks for the proper translation. I'm sure the essay surrounding that cartoon invites contrasting the caption and the voice-bubble in a more subtle way. My French is terrible, but I can OCR and Google Translate the essay, just to make the whole mess even more incomprehensible. edit: Also, I guess part of the joke is that the refugee kid can be a proper French citizen because he drew Mohammad? bitey fucked around with this message at 10:38 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 10:26
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Cat Mattress posted:This is a bad cartoon because it says it's the responsibility of the child, and yet it's the mother who takes the decision. YOu know I like you Cat Mattress, but WTF are you talking about?
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Jun 6, 2015 10:57
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:YOu know I like you Cat Mattress, but WTF are you talking about? I don't think any of us gets the cartoon yet because of insufficient context, and that's my fault. I should have posted the whole page (not that that would have helped).
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Jun 6, 2015 11:23
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:YOu know I like you Cat Mattress, but WTF are you talking about? Just being a bit silly. I guess I should have put a  smiley there.
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Jun 6, 2015 11:36
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bitey posted:I don't think any of us gets the cartoon yet because of insufficient context, and that's my fault. I should have posted the whole page (not that that would have helped). I get it. Because I'm infused with the Superpower of frenchness.
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Jun 6, 2015 11:37
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ReagaNOMNOMicks posted:I get it. Because I'm infused with the Superpower of frenchness. I thought I'd try to learn to read French because of Flaubert or Proust; but no, it's some stupid loving cartoon magazine.
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Jun 6, 2015 11:40
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bitey posted:I do, however, despair for the state of the world in which daesh can advance its ends while some of us debate the relative culpability of daesh's victims because of rude cartoons. This is like despairing for the state of a world where some of us debate the rights of otherkin. This is just stupid internet world debates, and you really shouldn't be defining any of your worldview on it. Every Arab Muslim I've talked to about caricatures of Mohammed has said it's ungentlemanly thing to do and they wished people wouldn't do it, but they also weren't letting on like they were prepared to make 10,000 posts arguing about it, specifically because there's so much other poo poo going on in the Muslim world. And wiping everything under the brush of daesh is a pretty inaccurate way to look at it, because the growth of militant takfiri ideology started before ISIS was created, and it'll be around long after they are gone, so it's not like their propaganda is the primary driver making all of this happen.
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Jun 6, 2015 15:38
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Liberal_L33t posted:Anjem Choudary's platform is broadly representative of the beliefs of a majority of non-western muslims and a strong plurality of western muslims in certain countries. Why shouldn't he be brought up by news organizations? Gosh maybe all those other Muslims Choudary is representative of should be in jail too. Maybe there's no time to set up trials for all those scary people! Quick, erect a...camp of some kind, to...keep them all in one place!
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Jun 6, 2015 16:01
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SedanChair posted:Gosh maybe all those other Muslims Choudary is representative of should be in jail too. Maybe there's no time to set up trials for all those scary people! Quick, erect a...camp of some kind, to...keep them all in one place! It's really ironic that someone with an av like yours would be accusing other people of bigotry or racism.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:25
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bitey posted:Daesh has executed approximately 10,000 unarmed Muslims, so far. Don't worry they're still not close to catching us
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Jun 6, 2015 16:45
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bitey posted:And, of course, last week, Boston cops killed that guy they'd been tracking. He'd wanted to behead Pamela Geller but decided that would be too hard, so he'd kill a few cops instead because he was in a hurry. Knife, guns, video – I'm sure you know the rest of this one. Why do you take at face value the unsubstantiated claims of police after they just killed a guy?
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Jun 6, 2015 16:47
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boom boom boom posted:It's really ironic that someone with an av like yours would be accusing other people of bigotry or racism. Not all people buy their own avs 
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Jun 6, 2015 17:37
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Disinterested posted:Not all people buy their own avs I suspect he did buy that particular one though. After some previous history involving cross-cultural exchange of insults.
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Jun 6, 2015 17:48
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Disinterested posted:Not all people buy their own avs That sounds like context. And like SedanChair has repeatedly emphasized, context doesn't matter when it comes to using racist imagery.
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Jun 6, 2015 17:53
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That sounds like context. And like SedanChair has repeatedly emphasized, context doesn't matter when it comes to using racist imagery. Context never matters, except when I am the accused.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:00
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That sounds like context. And like SedanChair has repeatedly emphasized, context doesn't matter when it comes to using racist imagery. It's a racist image no matter if he bought it, somebody else bought it for him, or somebody gave it to him for free with mod powers. I don't see how that contradicts his position that racist imagery is racist.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:10
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captainblastum posted:It's a racist image no matter if he bought it, somebody else bought it for him, or somebody gave it to him for free with mod powers. I don't see how that contradicts his position that racist imagery is racist. Well, in this case the context is that somebody else bought this for him in order to humiliate him through racist bullshit. So whoever did that was racist, and I don't think SedanChair is racist because of having a racist avatar. In the case of Charlie Hebdo, they repeatedly use racist imagery to bring into focus racism in French society. So I don't think they're racists just because they are using racist imagery. A Wyatt Mann used racist imagery to embody and promote racist stereotypes against various non-whites (and probably women? I didn't really dig into his work). Minute, which originally said that Justice Minister Taubira "had found her banana", was also using that stereotype to attack Taubira as a black woman. These are both clearly racist. Context matters. 
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Jun 6, 2015 18:21
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Well, in this case the context is that somebody else bought this for him in order to humiliate him through racist bullshit. So whoever did that was racist, and I don't think SedanChair is racist because of having a racist avatar. This thread is basically a bunch of people freaking out over the presence of dangerous animals in a zoo. The dangerous animals is racist cartoons, the zoo is Hebdo proudly putting other people's terrible opinions on display for the world to see. Putting the cartoons out of context and calling cry of racism is like freaking out about all the dangerous animals and ignoring the cages, feeding schedules, zookeeping staff, and informative plaques that they set up to make sure nobody gets killed or eaten and understands more about the animals.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:37
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Dewgy posted:This thread is basically a bunch of people freaking out over the presence of dangerous animals in a zoo. I'm keeping this for reference. Don't worry I'll mention you in the credits.
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Jun 6, 2015 18:55
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Dewgy posted:This thread is basically a bunch of people freaking out over the presence of dangerous animals in a zoo. This is an excellent analogy. However, it is missing a passage about the visitors being dumber than the average chimp.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:15
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blowfish posted:This is an excellent analogy. However, it is missing a passage about the visitors being dumber than the average chimp. They're not visitors though. They don't need to go to the zoo to know that the cages don't actually work.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:17
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And just like a zoo, there needs to be a good reason behind the questionable actions. The overwhelming majority of zoos in the world are bad, because the overwhelming majority of zoos in the world are horrible little roadside menageries with little to no oversight or regulation that exist only to exploit exotic animals for profit. The context of the cartoons doesn't change whether or not the imagery itself is racist, but it does help determine if the intent of the artist is racist (I don't think that Charb's intent was racist at all). To go back to your analogy, the happiest lion in a zoo with the best care in the world, a condition of some sort that means certain death in the wild, that has inspired and educated a generation of children to be stewards of the natural world is still a very, very, dangerous animal. I think that we're sort of saying two different things. The position that I'm trying to explain is that some of the imagery used is inherently racist, and I'm saying that because a position that I've seen advocated over and over in this thread is that none of the problematic imagery is in any way racist because it was not intended to be, and that's what I disagree with.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:21
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captainblastum posted:And just like a zoo, there needs to be a good reason behind the questionable actions. The overwhelming majority of zoos in the world are bad, because the overwhelming majority of zoos in the world are horrible little roadside menageries with little to no oversight or regulation that exist only to exploit exotic animals for profit. What I'm getting out of this is you can't read a metaphor for poo poo.  This has nothing to do with actual zoo management, it's a light analogy. People are freaking out over racism being displayed in a place where it is meant to be put on display and discussed in depth. That is my point.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:30
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AA, is A Wyatt Mann not actually racist in context?
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Jun 6, 2015 19:31
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Ed: Never mind.
Disinterested fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:34
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I actually bought this avatar for myself because people kept buying avatars for me that were more racist, but less funny.
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Jun 6, 2015 19:36
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Dewgy posted:This thread is basically a bunch of people freaking out over the presence of dangerous animals in a zoo. I'm not sure if this was the best analogy. Re: blowfish posted:This is an excellent analogy. However, it is missing a passage about the visitors being dumber than the average chimp. --- WhiskeyJuvenile posted:AA, is A Wyatt Mann not actually racist in context? Absurd Alhazred posted:A Wyatt Mann used racist imagery to embody and promote racist stereotypes against various non-whites (and probably women? I didn't really dig into his work). Minute, which originally said that Justice Minister Taubira "had found her banana", was also using that stereotype to attack Taubira as a black woman. These are both clearly racist. --- SedanChair posted:I actually bought this avatar for myself because people kept buying avatars for me that were more racist, but less funny. Oh, word? Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 19:51
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Your characterization of his work is wrong His intent was to piss off conformists
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Jun 6, 2015 20:20
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SedanChair posted:I actually bought this avatar for myself because people kept buying avatars for me that were more racist, but less funny. I hope you get murdered by a proud freedom fighter for your crimes of fighting a societal problem with its own caricature. E: gently caress you, SedanChair, you god drat hypocrite.
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Jun 6, 2015 21:04
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Your characterization of his work is wrong I can't really call his cartoons "not racist" knowing that but at least it's some sort of pre-WWW ironic humor form of racism. Makes me feel a little bit better about existence. Which is immediately then negated by other people copying it and using it without a trace of irony. 
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Jun 6, 2015 21:18
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