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I have been studying historical fencing for a couple of years off and on because I'm a meganerd and it's a fun hobby, and mostly am going to lurk the thread, glad to see it here though. I've studied some German and Italian Longsword, sword and buckler, Italian rapier, Spanish rapier, German "rapier"(supposedly they didn't really use rapiers per se, Meyer was a response to rapiers), and Bolognese sidesword. Southern California is a really great place to get into historical swordfighting because there's a lot of groups doing it right now. LA has like 6 at least. And yeah, as Verisimilidude says, it does mess you up for movie fighting scenes a bit, the big duel in Princess Bride does a lot of shout-outs to various styles but does very little of them. Having said that, the guy who choreographed it, Bob Anderson, was a legend who almost certainly knew what he was doing, but making an accurate duel and one that looks cool in a movie are two different things.
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Jan 8, 2015 23:57
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Ridley Scotts 'The Duellists' does it best. Having said that, I don't really get bothered by bad swordplay in movies...lifes too short for that. Oh it's not ruining the movie, lots of poo poo doesn't really make sense when you know the technical details. I can still watch Hackers too.
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Jan 9, 2015 01:30
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Omglosser posted:When someone says "Errol Flynn fencing", what are they referring to exactly? Does it differ from anything listed in the OP? Its basically Bob Anderson fencing I suspect. A bit of modern fencing and historical fencing done up to look good for the camera. Anderson was the fight choreographer for almost every movie swordfight you've ever seen, up to and including the LOTR movies and Star Wars.
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Jan 9, 2015 19:51
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I have a teacher who says, having studied quite a few sword arts, that "all fencing is the same". That, to a certain extent, there's only so many ways you can kill a person and defend getting killed. If you're good in one art, you may find you're good in another, rules aside. This is, of course, a really debatable point but I think what he's saying is that while the style parts and training might be different, in the end you're trying to do very very similar things.
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Jan 11, 2015 02:06
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Chamale posted:What about the half-sword style of historical fencing? It's really different from fencing because you often want to swing the sword around and smash your opponent with the pommel, but for this reason it's too dangerous to actually practice. Which is a shame, because I think it looks cooler than modern sport fencing. I know some neat disarms that use halfsword grips.
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Jan 12, 2015 04:26
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P-Mack posted:Zeitgueist, how much luck have you had pulling off those halfsword disarms in open sparring? I imagine it would make you feel like an absolute baller. Haha, not even once. The guy who taught me them said when he does manage(rarely) it's pretty awesome.
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Jan 12, 2015 07:45
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Stabbychat: Do you think that separating tournaments by gender is an appropriate thing to do in fencing? What about a woman's tournament and a unisex tournament both as an option? This is apparently a hotbutton issue on the historical swordfighting group I read.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:24
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Without starting a goon sexual dimorphism holy war, my own opinion is that it's not appropriate. I don't feel that men or women have a particular advantage, at least in historical fighting, which is what I do. One of the most dominant fighters in some of my groups recently was a woman, and I've found that if anything, women tend to be the faster fighters. Strength doesn't seem to come into play as the swords are only a couple of pounds, and if you're stuck wrestling in a longsword/arming sword bind, you're doing it wrong.
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Jan 15, 2015 01:56
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I'm not dealing with athletes in top physical condition though. I realize I said I didn't specify, but I don't know that I expect the high end modern fencing world to change, I'm thinking more along the lines of casual or historical fencing where you have a mix of skills and conditions. One of the top fencers in my class is a 5'2" 90lb woman. Sure, the 6'5" guy with crazy long arms gives her fits but that's also true of the teacher who is stronger but not much taller than her.
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Jan 15, 2015 02:38
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I'm going to drop because I don't want it to take over the thread, but I've found that more often than not the physicality that tends to matter in historical fencing is height and reach. I don't know if that's true of modern fencing or Kendo, I have no experience with either. I've seen tall fighters with long range do very well against more skilled fighters. I'm not sure if a 6'5" guy versus a 5'2" person matters if the shorter person is a man or a woman. Presumably a tall women would have similar advantages(and I've seen that in action).
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Jan 15, 2015 03:12
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Verisimilidude posted:Which group is that? Good post and I agree with a lot of it. I read the HEMA Alliance facebook group from time to time, and I remember reading somebody comment that they should ban discussion of contentious issues like women's tournaments. Anyhow, my thought was that I"d be for unisex tournaments at the current stage of maturity in the community because while tall long fighters have an advantage, and men tend to be taller, they also have an advantage over men and that's just the nature of things, like how tall folks have a natural advantage at basketball. A really skilled fighter can lose to someone who's fast and has range, and separating tournaments isn't going to change that. I agree if we were talking a developed sport with a high tier of people all at roughly the same level, like olympic fencing, minor physiological differences would probably come into play but I don't think the community is anywhere near there.
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Jan 15, 2015 07:01
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My sharp is hidden inside a cane that is styled to match my fedora. Look out, ruffians.
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Jan 15, 2015 18:45
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ImplicitAssembler posted:The men are clearly faster, move better and have way faster weapon speed. In kendo this is somewhat compensated for with the women being allowed to use a lighter shinai. I said I was going to stop but I don't get the sense that this is at all a thread destroying conversation, so I'll keep responding. I don't feel that "move better" is a gender-based thing, I think that's footwork training and technique, and I can't imagine there's a specific biometric reason men would "move better. I also don't know that the men are significantly quicker than the women, maybe slightly but not a massive difference. Here's a quick unisex bout in rapier from the first SoCal swordfight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVmxMbeuleU I don't feel that the woman is any slower here, and she does win the match against a taller, presumably stronger opponent. Verisimilidude posted:Oh boy, I finally gave up on that place maybe a month or two ago. Are you going to Longpoint this year? If so we should get drunk and wrassle. I'm west coast.
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Jan 15, 2015 20:22
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ImplicitAssembler posted:I was referring specifically to the 2 videos I posted. Right, I'm saying I'm not sure why that would be relevant to the gender discussion....if folks move better, I would assume they are better trained.
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Jan 15, 2015 21:09
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Stolennosferatu posted:This all sounds pretty fun. What socal clubs do you recommend for a "never even done anything similar" beginner? Where in SoCal are you, and what are you looking for? Historical or Modern? (if historical) Longsword or rapier?
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Jan 19, 2015 04:27
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EmmyOk posted:Trying to score hits on their first ever partner distance drill with no weapons People who try to "win" drills are fun. And by fun, I mean a pain. vvvv Yeah I've had numerous times where I couldn't get a counter drill to work and it turns out one of us being a lovely attacker Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 22:10
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Stolennosferatu posted:Northern orange County. I don't really know what I'm looking for. What's the easiest to do if I want to go to a class let's say, once a week at most? Somebody else in the thread would be more qualified to discuss the differences between modern sport fencing and historical fencing, in regards to rapier fencing. As for a longsword or other weapons with no Olympic amateur analogue, you're pretty much only looking at historical groups. I'm not familiar with modern sport fencing clubs but I have no doubt there are several good options in OC. I'm going tolink the main page for the HEMA club finder for the threads benefit, but scroll down there is a western North America specific one. Orange Counter is a good situation, there's alike 2/3 clubs in SD, and a good 5 or 6 in LA, and one of the biggest is in Orange County, which is Kron Martial Arts. Kron is the group that runs a lot of the events in SoCal, like SoCal Swordfight which is probably the biggest(by attendance) historical swordfighting event in the US. They are also very inexpensive, and last I checked they held a once a week practice on the CalState Fullerton campus. They have a very large membership as well, which is good and not necessarily common in the hobby. They do a ton of German longsword, but have some folks doing all sorts of things including rapier, wrestling and dagger fighting and even sickle. There's also Tattershall School of Defense, which is a bit more expensive and runs several structured class sessions throughout the year, and tends do both historical rapier and historical sidesword/longsword in each session, occasionally doing other forms of historical combat as well. They are in Long Beach. You can also look into the SCA, who do a bunch of historical rapier combat as well. However, they also are into dressing up in historical garb and doing all sort of other stuff that has noting to do with historical combat at all, so that may or may not be your cup of tea. They are free to practice with, though, and have a practice in Huntington Beach last I checked. There's also Chivalry Today, which is an organization that does historical education and demonstrations in San Diego and the surrounding area, but who also offer classes(paid) in historical swordsmanship. All of the above have some crossover with each other, the community is still pretty small compared to a lot of other hobbies. Also yeah, 1 class week is pretty standard, but keep in mind it's like anything else, if you don't practice outside of class you will progress much more slowly.
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Jan 19, 2015 23:45
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ScratchAndSniff posted:2. Ask when we get to dual wield. They should know that only comes at higher levels. 
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Jan 20, 2015 18:35
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Verisimilidude posted:I know you're joking, but in a lot of rapier treatises they actually say you should only learn rapier + dagger after mastering the single rapier. So it's /basically/ like being high level. Nicoletto Giganti has some fairly elaborate rapier/dagger drills towards the end of the book.
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Jan 20, 2015 19:23
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ScratchAndSniff posted:Lots of fencers are in terrible shape. It's decent exercise, but even doing it every day won't make you swole. That being said, it's a great gateway exercise for otherwise inactive people who want to get off the couch. Yeah, do 100 lunges and you will definitely feel it. If you're good at timing and measure, you can do OK while still being an average goon. But yeah those who are athletic will definitely have an advantage.
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Jan 22, 2015 23:01
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Control Volume posted:does fencing ruin this fight scene: Only you can ruin a movie fencing scene for yourself.
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Feb 6, 2015 01:50
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ScratchAndSniff posted:It becomes less of an issue past level 20 when you get the dex bonus for short arms. You don't get dual wield with a dagger at 20? Should have gone historical skill tree. 
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Feb 7, 2015 07:16
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The Phoenix society of Historical Swordsmanship(out of Arizona, of course), doing an educational demo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0YdYNftAIM
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Feb 9, 2015 21:09
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ImplicitAssembler posted:And it highlights the biggest issue I have with self-taught Historical fencing: Terrible footwork. No disagreement, but curious as to what you dislike? A lot of these groups are attempting to work out 500 year old manuscripts that only have rough illustrations, though many folks do have some modern fencing background.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:14
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Siivola posted:With the longsword in the very beginning, they're both clearly leading with their feet: Both guys step in before moving the sword, which leaves their face wide open. With the rapier, they're both deathly stiff and look like they're not paying any attention to their measure. I mean, they start off way too close to begin with, and when one guy moves, the other doesn't follow. And then the thin guy keeps presenting his left flank for no reason I can figure, and... It's entirely possible they are being sloppy for demonstration, but I have no idea if that's true. You can click on other video's posted and see if it's a one-off or a continual problem.
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Feb 9, 2015 23:39
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FWIW, I was always taught that your feet should follow your hands/arms, though it's taken me a long time to get my body to actually do that. Also a problem in ballroom dancing.
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Feb 9, 2015 23:48
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ImplicitAssembler posted:Before I jump on this, in what context?. Because that's the opposite of what you need to do in almost every sport & martial art, if you want to generate speed and power. In a historical rapier lunge, for instance, your hand, then your arm, then your hips, then your foot. The mechanics are different, I'm told, from a modern lunge, and this from folks who have 10+ years in modern fencing before they got into historical. I may be speaking too broadly, and if so, my mistake, I'm by no means an expert.
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Feb 9, 2015 23:59
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ScratchAndSniff posted:This is true for modern fencing as well. In general, you usually want to lead with the arm or you will run into the other guy's blade. The hips aren't as important for us, since we use the back leg to generate power/speed. FWIW I learned the same thing in the few historical styles I have learned, but in most unarmed martial arts it is the reverse. It's fencing, it's kinda silly no matter what. Nobody is going to challenge me to a duel, so might as well go with what interests you. The skinny dude is a history teacher, IIRC.
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Feb 10, 2015 02:02
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Verisimilidude posted:Roland of Dimicator speaks exactly about this. Nice video, and it matches with what I've been taught.
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Feb 10, 2015 20:00
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El Spamo posted:Ah, right. I didn't watch that video. I don't know whether they were loving around or not, but the skinny guy is fairly well known in rapier competition, but is far more known for teaching from Fiore's 15th century manual which covers a bunch of different types of fighting and footwork, but definitely includes passing steps(German footwork does as well, they're fairly similar in many respects) and is mainly a longsword book for many folks. As I suggested, they might have some sparring in other videos if you're looking for a more accurate representation of a fight. El Spamo posted:And why are we talking about historical stuff? This is modern sport fencing! As I understood it, myself and others can bring it up in this thread. It's not really as good a fit in the martial arts thread of the historical combat thread(though close). Not trying to start any cultural wars, I just threw it up to see what folks thought of it.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:22
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El Spamo posted:Cool beans. Y'all bring the historical stuff, and some modern stuff'll get posted too. If you or anyone else is interested, here's a video about doing an Italian Renaissance lunge with the guy people are complaining about not being the one teaching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcWN1FE-CXA I will shut up about nerdy historical stuff for now.
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Feb 10, 2015 22:37
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Verisimilidude posted:From what I understand, Richard Marsden (the skinny bearded guy) has only really started practicing rapier relatively recently. His main thing is polish saber (which he's writing a book on, complete with period costumes!) and he's pretty good at longsword. I've always thought his school's footwork looked strange, or at the very least a bit awkward, but it could be an influence from their polish saber-heavy background. I've only ever learned Fiore Longsword from Marsden. When he visits my area, that's what he teaches. He's a pretty fun teacher as well, he's very enthusiastic. I've seen him be pressed in sparring with rapier, and it's fun to watch because he's even skinnier in person that that video makes it look, and he's flexible so he does all sorts of unorthodox body voids. But I don't think I was qualified at the time to say whether what he was doing was technically correct, or just idiosyncratic to him.
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Feb 11, 2015 01:22
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Verisimilidude posted:My teacher is very similar (super skinny at 5'7", 125 lbs) and he's lightning fast and crazy good at voids. I'm trying to drop some weight to be in the same physical league as him since I'm short. Yeah if you ever get a chance to take a class from him, he's quite fun. Looked up the Martinez Academy you mentioned and I'm jealous, it looks quite nice. The vast majority of historical rapier I've seen taught is Italian...though there is Puck Curtis up in northern Cali who also does Destreza and his wife as well, who's an academic researcher on it.
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Feb 11, 2015 02:15
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Rolled tips or rubber blunts. The have some flex but yeah less than a modern foil. Ideally fighters should also be mindful of their opponents as well.
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Feb 11, 2015 05:04
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ScratchAndSniff posted:I have always wondered how historical tournaments work. How do these events reconcile competition with the need to demonstrate the traditional techniques? Well there's no single answer. The truth is, HEMA(Historical European Martial Arts) as a group is still really new and young, despite technically existing for hundreds of years the popularity is really recent. Even within the last year it's grown a lot. Different tournaments do it differently. The format I have seen used at SoCal Swordfight, which is a pretty big conference, was to have a point system based on where you strike your opponent(fatal/wounding), and when a touch is made fighting stops and 3 observing judges attempt to agree on what they saw happen, majority taking it. A simpler form might be simply to 3 touches, or whatever. The big conference(and most prestigious US tournament is Longpoint on the east coast, and I'm in LA so I don't know how they do it. One point of contention in historical swordfighting is that tournament scoring systems can bias the style to adapt to the scoring system rather than using accurate technique(ie, hand hunting moreso than you strictly might have in period, and such). I don't necessarily disagree with that, and I think folks have to strike a balance between accuracy and competition, should they choose to compete. I don't think anyone disagrees that you have to spar to get better, but some folks refuse tournament formats for that reason. And of course in a tourney format, you may have some folks doing tactically foolish things in order to get a final point or whatever. I did see in the last rapier tournament I observed the main ref ask fighters to use good technique and not strike wildly when things got aggressive. I'm still new to the sport end of it but I get the feeling that there's not really any settled format/style to historical tournaments just yet, due to the community immaturity. Sure, some clubs have been around for decades, but there isn't a strong standardizing body just yet.
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Feb 11, 2015 07:10
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"Good technique" means not wild dangerous strikes, for the most part. Control, form, etc. As Vers said, there's only so many ways to cut somebody with a sword and I have no doubt a kendo master would do well in a longsword tournament. Especially if they have a good sense of timing and measure, which as far as I am aware, is useful in any sword system.
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Feb 12, 2015 01:58
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ScratchAndSniff posted:Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression that it was more about practicing traditional techniques, but it sounds a lot more like a sport fencing competition that I thought it would be. What it could be, and what it is are two different things. As far as historical rapier fencing goes, you're going to see a lot of folks doing what they have to in order to win, over accurate technique, because many folks come form a sport fencing background and/or if they're in a tourney, care more about winning that being accurate. I think that as the community becomes more settled, folks will be able to do both. There are folks who do both already, but they're the entirety of the community. There are excellent fencers who use excellent technique who spar but don't compete.
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Feb 12, 2015 02:56
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Crazy Achmed posted:Brutal. The scoring system sounds fair, though, considering what you're trying to achieve. What ways do people try to game the system, out of curiosity? It seems to have just enough subjectivity built into it to weed out that sort of stuff (kendo is similar in this respect, too, isn't it?) It's not so much gaming the system as you might see wild strikes with poor control, some that may land harder than intended even with armor on due to adrenaline. It's not a huge issue.
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Feb 13, 2015 08:28
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I've never met anyone who thought that swordfighting was useful as self-defense in any way. Most of us don't even own sharps and when we do run into them we treat them incredibly carefully. I mean, I'm sure that kind of jackass exists, but I doubt it's any more than any other martial art. There's always some douche who thinks he's Jackie Chan after a couple of lessons. Fiore was writing a book in the 1400's about what an awesome badass he was and it was almost certainly illustrated by monks who had only a passing understanding of what he was talking about and didn't even illustrate with perspective(that came in later manuals) so there's a bunch of interpretation as to technique
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Feb 18, 2015 19:46
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Definitely if you're going to streetfight, you're gonna want to roll with a nice cane and top hat, and bust out your bartitsu.
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Feb 20, 2015 19:52
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