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Are you a This poll is closed. |
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| homeowner |
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39 | 22.41% |
| renter |
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69 | 39.66% |
| stupid peace of poo poo |
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66 | 37.93% |
| Total: | 174 votes | ||
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I think this is the first election year where I'm genuinely undecided how I'll vote
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May 31, 2017 09:27
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oohhboy posted:To narrow it down, pick anything that doesn't support National winning. Presumably that means voting labour or greens but I'm deeply disappointed in both of them right now. I've voted green in the last two elections
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May 31, 2017 09:34
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Why the gently caress do we have to have a perfect nz farage surrogate at a time like this but no nz corbyn?
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May 31, 2017 09:41
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oohhboy posted:They have been out of power for 9 years, not much they can do to push policy as people keep voting in a blank surrogate they want to have a beer with. I kinda get the impression that you think people who are disillusioned with labour and the greens are stupid as opposed to people who largely don't feel like their concerns are being met by these parties that are supposed to represent them
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May 31, 2017 09:55
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exmarx posted:
It's seriously so much worse with the pretend friendly kiwi language there
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May 31, 2017 10:05
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oohhboy posted:A lot of people don't vote on policy period. Okay, I'm not one of those people and I think way less than you imagine are oohhboy posted:What is your stake in this? Is it really that important to throw everything else to the wolves? If you want to move the government left you have to vote for leftist parties. So if the "leftist" parties aren't at all left enough for me to feel good voting for them what should I do? Just vote for them and shut up cause they aren't the other guys? How do I get them to stop being garbage when my only real value to them is my vote?
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May 31, 2017 10:11
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Ghostlight posted:If you really want to be voting Real Left instead of lovely Left then you might as well give up and enjoy voting Nats because Real Left will always need lovely Left to get into power and lovely Left already can't get itself in. Or alternatively you can put forward a strong left that isn't ashamed of itself that genuinely appeals to people instead of this bullshit half measures stuff. Look at how Sanders and Corbyn have genuinely excited large parts of their country. Find me one person who's excited by Little or Shaw
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May 31, 2017 10:20
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Vagabundo posted:Because sometimes you have to choose the less lovely option, and if that involves occasionally holding your nose to vote for someone, then so be it. How the gently caress do you think Tory parties keep getting into power, for gently caress's sake. Yeah that's exactly what I'm hosed off about. It shouldn't be some insane fantasy scenario that you might have a voting option that you feel genuinely good about voting for
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May 31, 2017 10:23
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oohhboy posted:Parliament has been moving to the right because people voting right instead of left hence why Labour/Green have started to adopt right wing policies to get the voters back. As much as I want you to "Feel good" about your vote, rationality should be your guide. It could start with a genuine leftist push and a figure who genuinely articulated that push from one of the major parties as opposed to just offering the status quo but a little less bad
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May 31, 2017 10:33
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oohhboy posted:Have a look at the Democratic primary in the states. Bernie lost, but the votes he gained made Clinton adopt a number of his more leftist positions. So you're saying I should vote for a fringe party in order to make the major parties take notice but also hold my nose and vote for a major party? I'm genuinely confused.
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May 31, 2017 10:49
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Wafflecopper posted:It was an example. He literally said "for example" I know
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May 31, 2017 10:53
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Wafflecopper posted:Then you should know he wasn't actually telling you to vote for the weed party, he was telling you to vote Green to try to pull the political hivemind back towards the left. Are you being intentionally dense or what Are you? The problem is the major "left" parties (i.e. the Greens) are bad and don't actually represent a solid opposition to the policies of National. I want these parties to change. That's what I've been talking about the whole time. If that's actually the point of what oohhboy said to me it makes no sense. I can incrementally drag the political hivemind back to the left by rewarding a party that's moving right?
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May 31, 2017 11:26
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Wafflecopper posted:I'm not taking sides in the argument, just trying to explain what he's saying since you seemed determined to miss the point and/or strawman him I don't think I was but thank you for your intervention
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May 31, 2017 11:34
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I don't think incrementalism and moving right to try to appeal to national voters is sensible or pragmatic at all. My evidence is that this approach has failed for the last 3 elections and is looking to fail again
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Jun 1, 2017 09:39
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Ghostlight posted:I think that if there's an undiscovered cache of leftist voters who are repeatedly allowing the right to form a government in pursuit of ideological purity then we deserve the right-leaning government we've repeatedly received that passes no leftist policies at all, and I don't blame any left-leaning party for trying to cannibalise those members of the public who are actually making their voice heard rather than shouting into the darkness hoping that a significant bloc will suddenly find the thought of implementing actual policy more important than wringing their hands yet again over the incremental drift to the right their non-votes are contributing toward. Listen I vote but a gently caress load of people don't because they don't really feel they have something to vote for. Voting against a party is not necessarily enough to motivate someone. You can say that's laziness or whatever but genuinely a whole lot of people just don't feel engaged in politics or feel they can make a change. It's my position that a strong serious challenge to the right from the left, especially at this moment in time, has the potential to shake this up and get people to care. It's happening in other parts of the world and working, why not here?
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Jun 1, 2017 11:21
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oohhboy posted:Use your vote to stop it then. You need your guys in power to do this. How hard is it to understand this idea. Jesus Christ I know national is bad okay
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Jun 1, 2017 11:25
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oohhboy posted:Is Three Guys better than one guy? So you don't really have anything to say to that then
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Jun 1, 2017 12:27
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Where else in the world is a strong challenge from the left actually happening? I don't think the US really counts, even if the Dems shifted left a bit; most of Europe is pretty right-wing economically, and despite Corbyn's best efforts there's still not going to be a left-wing government in the UK come next week. The US absolutely counts, I feel Bernie Sanders really illuminated how many people there are who actually want leftist policies and how active and passionate otherwise disenfranchised people can be motivated to be in pursuit of them. He's the most popular politician in the US right now, something I would never have believed possible a year and a half ago. Where the UK goes in a weeks time is pretty up in the air but I have absolutely zero belief that a moderate Labour leader would be doing nearly as well as Corbyn is right now. I think at the very least the notion that these types of people and policies are inherently too dividing and compromising to play in the mainstream is complete bullshit and the left is pointlessly cutting themselves off from the kind of real definition and excitement that actually gets people out to vote.
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Jun 1, 2017 12:44
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oohhboy posted:A bit joyless much? I like stuff that's good
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Jun 1, 2017 13:02
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Man who is deeply offended by the fact people not exactly like him exist has a thing or two to say about the fragile minorities not wanting to be called racial slurs
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Jun 2, 2017 08:23
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You rear end in a top hat incrementalists who said I was a stupid child and unrealistic for saying disenfranchised groups will come out and vote again if given a solid leftist option should learn an incredibly obvious lesson from this but you probably won't
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Jun 9, 2017 21:03
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Slavvy posted:I think the issue in NZ is that nobody wants those policies. Or at least, not enough people to make a difference against the beers and barby party. This is complete bullshit and the exact kind of stuff that was being said about Corbyn as recently as a week ago
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Jun 10, 2017 01:13
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Also slaavy literally on the page before this one you were saying leftist policies are incredibly popular but not being marketed correctly
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Jun 10, 2017 01:21
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Slavvy posted:Proof? You want proof of basically the entire media narrative of Corbyn's leadership up till yesterday? Slavvy posted:Not being marketed correctly is the same as being unpopular. I guess I should've been clearer and said people want those policies without realising that that's what they want and their voting preferences go counter to that because people vote for marketing reasons. So policies don't matter? You really think proposing things that excite people and appeal to them is completely meaningless and everything is just PR? I completely reject this idea
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Jun 10, 2017 01:33
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Slavvy posted:I want proof that what I said is bullshit, I realise that corbyn has been shat on consistently since he took leadership. Because the narrative was no one in Britain wanted a leader that far left and he was going to destroy the labour party. That a genuine leftist platform was campaign and party suicide and the people it appealed to would never turn out. That turned out to be completely wrong i.e. bullshit
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Jun 10, 2017 01:54
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Slavvy posted:Right. So UK polls were incorrect. Does this mean NZ polls are incorrect? I certainly hope so! Seriously if this is all you can take from what's happened and you think nothing a party does aside from hire a good pr manager matters there's literally zero point in talking about politics with you
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Jun 10, 2017 02:04
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Using my incredible knowledge of statistics I have concluded that if nothing ever changes everything will stay the same
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Jun 10, 2017 02:27
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Slavvy posted:They absolutely can. Just need better marketing. As in 'their actions' being 'sorting out some better marketing'. Why then did you say earlier on this page that the problem was people don't want leftist policies in New Zealand if any idea taking hold and being politically viable is just marketing? It almost seems like you're talking complete poo poo
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Jun 10, 2017 03:09
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Slavvy posted:I think the issue in NZ is that nobody wants those policies. Or at least, not enough people to make a difference against the beers and barby party. UK labour didn't run against the most wildly popular leadership of the past few decades AFAIK.
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Jun 10, 2017 03:13
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Okay now admit that a party changing its positions and offering something people want and benefit from can change the public perspective of that party and get people to vote who often don't
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Jun 10, 2017 03:20
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Like you're either just being contrarian or for some reason arguing against the most basic form of politics existing
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Jun 10, 2017 03:26
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Slavvy posted:But as has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, labour and the greens have been doing just that for years and are now shifting to the right precisely as a response to it not working. They, too, wrongly blame their policies without realising that control of the media narrative and general PR smoke and mirrors are the defining factors of political success in this country and have been for a good decade. Was what just happened in the UK a result of Corbyn hiring a new marketing guy or was it a result of the popularity of ideas and policies?
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Jun 10, 2017 03:32
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Btw I'm not an absolutist here, marketing definitely matters I understand this. You're the one taking the view that it is the ONLY thing that matters which is utterly insane
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Jun 10, 2017 03:33
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Slaavy you seem to know basically nothing about this election or even the UK in general based on the things you say about it and are just warping stuff to make it fit into your incredibly cynical preconceived narrative imo
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Jun 10, 2017 03:48
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Ghostlight posted:I'm mildly more optimistic by the news from the UK, but only mildly because even experts weeks out from the election were saying their polls are reliably unreliable. It won't change Labour's strategy of being a National that spends its crumbs on social issues rather than tax cuts though. My position is that it should and anyone talking bullshit about the viability and pragmatism of centrism should be laughed out of the room
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Jun 10, 2017 03:57
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Ghostlight posted:My position is that it won't and that the media-entrenched importance of centrism (for the Left) will remain the dominant narrative of this year's election. Is your position also still that disenfranchised voters who will come out for actual leftist policies are either a myth or irrelevant?
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Jun 10, 2017 04:25
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Slavvy posted:Why can't they be a bit of both? Reality mostly I'd say
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Jun 10, 2017 04:28
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Ghostlight posted:My position is that they are irrelevant because by definition they cannot vote. Okay "voters who will not normally turn out but will when an actual leftist appeal to them is made" then Ghostlight posted:Also I disagree with the "still" in that sentence. Ghostlight posted:I think that if there's an undiscovered cache of leftist voters who are repeatedly allowing the right to form a government in pursuit of ideological purity then we deserve the right-leaning government we've repeatedly received that passes no leftist policies at all, and I don't blame any left-leaning party for trying to cannibalise those members of the public who are actually making their voice heard rather than shouting into the darkness hoping that a significant bloc will suddenly find the thought of implementing actual policy more important than wringing their hands yet again over the incremental drift to the right their non-votes are contributing toward.
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Jun 10, 2017 07:03
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What a shitshow this is
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Aug 9, 2017 06:16
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 07:33 |
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Our country...it is pretty bad
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Aug 9, 2017 07:02
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