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computer parts posted:Look at a map of the Western Hemisphere and see how much of it belonged to Spain, a European country.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:At least the Spanish managed to keep a quite sizable population of native Americans alive, despite accidentally causing a massive plague. Like, in some South American countries Amerindians are the largest ethnicity. On the other hand, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ta%C3%ADno
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Jan 17, 2015 19:21
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computer parts posted:Look at a map of the Western Hemisphere and see how much of it belonged to Spain, a European country. We are discussing US exceptionalism here. I don't see what South America has to do with it. It's not Spain that's all like 'we are the best country on earth'.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:24
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all countries are terrible, especially yours
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Jan 17, 2015 19:24
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feedmegin posted:We are discussing US exceptionalism here. I don't see what South America has to do with it. It's not Spain that's all like 'we are the best country on earth'. The extinction of the native people is not limited to the future boundaries of the United States.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:25
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The Cold War basically made America go nuts and do anything and everything it could to stick it to the commies, from putting god in the pledge of allegiance to making all our kids says it. Ultimately the sad fact is the original nationalist movement in the US never lost any steam due to the US not being bombed into a crater during WW2 and it found a very happy place inside anti-soviet and anti-European rhetoric during the cold war. Then of course, 9/11 happened and cranked the "Patriotism" dial up to 11.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:27
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waitwhatno posted:
Are you saying japan declared surrender and we ignored them to drop the bomb anyways? No doubt losing mainland troops was a big blow. But once we started making cities disapear completely is when we got the official surrender.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:28
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We nuked Japan as a political statement against the Soviet Union, considering they had just wiped out an army we would have second thoughts about going after with minimal losses.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:32
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Agnosticnixie posted:By the time the second bomb hit the japanese government still didn't know what, exactly, had hit them in Hiroshima. Your fourth point doesn't remotely describe the Kwantung army, and the marines being fuckups has a lot to do with the island hopping campaigns. Okinawa wasn't a show of patriotism, it was a second class population being treated like second class by the IJA; had the Marines been in charge of taking Hokkaido, I wouldn't be surprised to read history books relating that the IJA higher ups decided finishing up the Ainu genocide was a better use of the troops than fighting the US once the battle was obviously lost. Germany did pay reparations but wasnt keeping up, couldnt keep up. And yes it was a national embarrasment for germany By the time japan got hit by the second bomb they didnt know what hit them? Well yes they didnt have the scientific knowledge. But we did demonstrate the bomb to them. But by the 2nd bomb they knew whatever this thing was was beyond their ability to fight so surrendered
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Jan 17, 2015 19:32
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davidb posted:Are you saying japan declared surrender and we ignored them to drop the bomb anyways? The face-saving "The nukes made us do it" bullshit of the official instrument of surrender, when everything in the backrooms for the past year had hinged on the soviets not declaring war, ultimately gave a shot in the arm to the japanese far right that wouldn't exist had they finished the war a week later with the USN in Tokyo harbor and the red army pounding the Kwantung army all the way to Korea, but from a geopolitical standpoint that couldn't be allowed since acting friendly to the soviets was FDR's thing (even though he was no socialist, really) and the new administration was already gearing up for the cold war. Agnosticnixie fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jan 17, 2015 |
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Jan 17, 2015 19:34
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Also this thread title is retarded, of course Euro's are proud of their country, but there is a different between pride and nationalism.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:35
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In Europe, excessive levels of national pride and flag-waving generally recall fascism and far-right movements. If I came across the English flag flying outside a house I'd probably be able to take a guess at what kind of person lived inside (big sporting events aside). Same for the UK flag, though I'd guess they were different types of people. It's crazy to me that American right-wingers who're so sceptical about national healthcare and building roads and other such Nazi initiatives will then turn right around and happily recite the pledge of allegiance (and demand that schools do it too), wave the flag like it's going out of style, give the police and military a free pass on whatever they do and attack anyone left of Reagan as an enemy of America. Basically excessive patriotism and flag waving makes people stupid, easy to fool and rarely leads to anything good. See: the millions of poor southern whites in America who religiously vote against their interests because they're afraid of communism.
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Jan 17, 2015 19:42
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Its handy to make Americans pledge allegiance and raise flags and whatnot just literally to remind them what country they are in. There are a fuckload of people and cultures in the States so you use patriotism to unify them against secession. If you fail to do this your land empire risks falling apart. If the EU became a fully fledged conglomerate state like the US you can bet we'd be reciting national anthems and having flags in schools in order to unify people under a distant ruler. Whats funny is that in response to the perceived (and actual) threat of the EU on local democracy we are getting to pushes to increase patriotic activities with our own countries' symbols as a stand of independence. Patriotism: It means your nation-state is worried.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:21
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Coohoolin posted:I'd tend to agree, and posit that decentralisation is a positive movement resulting from localised self-interest- Scottish, Catalan, Basque independence movements, etc; with the caveat that sometimes it really just is a bunch of assholes: Stateless European nations are also pretty much the only people able to match Americans in their really embarrassing displays of patriotism outside of sporting events. 
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Jan 17, 2015 20:26
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davidb posted:We should all walk around embarrassed because our homo sapien/erectus ancestors killed off an ENTIRE SPECIES of humans called neanderthalls. Neanderthalls were at the same technological level as us (basic stone tools) until roughly 75k years ago? Goddamn you are stupid.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:31
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
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Europe is a big place and the level of nationalism greatly varies. Countries that only recently became (or reclaimed) indepence tend to be more nationalistic. Norway is quite nationalistic but it is mostly focused on sports and the national day. It is very common to have a flag pole outside your house but is mostly used on important days, Ironcally our present day nationalism is mostly a result of ww2. Until then it was mostly the upper class and the upper-middle class that celebrated the national day whilst the Labour class mostly celebrated 1 of may. After the war People from all economic classes felt a need to celebrate the nation and that feeling has never quite gone away. Most of Europe seems to link nationalism With facism, we seem to link it with the struggle against fascism ( much like the Russians, who quite frankly have earned the rigth to be smug nationalist after ww2). Recent polling seems to suggest that non-western immigrants are mostly cool With the big national day celebrations whilst immigrants from other Europea countries find it disturbing.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:35
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davidb posted:Well besides america being #1 by most measurements. What measurements do you mean? McDonald's per capita? Number of children killed by drone? Number of medical bankruptcies? Political contributions by multinational corporations? People incarcerated? Percentage of GDP spent on the military? Here's a thing were you're not #1, Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index:  Anyway, to come back to the topic at hand, being proud of your country is ridiculous, and US exceptionalism is hilariously blatant propaganda.
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Jan 17, 2015 20:53
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Being passively proud of your country is alright. You like the food, the culture, whatever. If someone talks poo poo about it you might respond with something. Overt displays are different. Pledge of allegiance in school? What the gently caress is that, is kneeling before the fuhrer Obama's portrait next?
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Jan 17, 2015 20:56
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ekuNNN posted:What measurements do you mean? *points to dilz*
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Jan 17, 2015 21:03
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I would love to see a breakdown of the US's IHDI by state. With such a huge area and spread out population I bet you'd get a pretty good range.
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Jan 17, 2015 21:53
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Modern nationalism is the glue that hold culturally and ethnically heterogeneous societies together under one banner. That's why it's so widespread in the USA and becoming more widespread in Australia as they open their borders to immigrants. It's not as widespread in Europe though because most European countries are more homogeneous.
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Jan 17, 2015 22:10
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Any European who insists that he doesn't care about nationalism is a bare-faced liar. He only says it so that he can act snooty and stuck-up around Americans.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:05
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kapparomeo posted:Any European who insists that he doesn't care about nationalism is a bare-faced liar. He only says it so that he can act snooty and stuck-up around Americans. "I think where I live sucks and am profoundly ashamed of my country and even my skin color, you sheeple americans"
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Jan 17, 2015 23:13
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Satsuki Kiryuin posted:The Cold War basically made America go nuts and do anything and everything it could to stick it to the commies, from putting god in the pledge of allegiance to making all our kids says it. Ultimately the sad fact is the original nationalist movement in the US never lost any steam due to the US not being bombed into a crater during WW2 and it found a very happy place inside anti-soviet and anti-European rhetoric during the cold war. Bellamy salute was from the 30s. We had a good 5 or 10 year period where we were buds with the USSR, we even backed them up in telling postcolonial European countries to pound sand a few times No, the United States has been nationalistic and authoritarian for pretty much its entire existence
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Jan 17, 2015 23:14
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icantfindaname posted:
you have no idea what those words mean and not a single ounce of perspective, try surfing wikipedia or something
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Jan 17, 2015 23:16
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nopantsjack posted:Its handy to make Americans pledge allegiance and raise flags and whatnot just literally to remind them what country they are in. There are a fuckload of people and cultures in the States so you use patriotism to unify them against secession. If you fail to do this your land empire risks falling apart. white Americans are a shitload more homogenous as a whole than Europe as a whole. they're doing the Hitler salute to the flag every morning because they're authoritarian reactionaries, it has nothing to do with keeping imperial peoples together or whatever
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Jan 17, 2015 23:18
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RonMexicosPitbull posted:you have no idea what those words mean and not a single ounce of perspective, try surfing wikipedia or something Maybe the slaves and Indians should have surfed Wikipedia, to find out what authoritarianism is.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:25
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Satsuki Kiryuin posted:We nuked Japan as a political statement against the Soviet Union, considering they had just wiped out an army we would have second thoughts about going after with minimal losses. Im sure there can be many reasons to drop a nuke. But im going to take things at face value. Before nuke explosion. Japan no surrender. After 2× nuke explosions japan surrender. US military said they used nukes to end the war quick and save american lives which it did both.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:32
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icantfindaname posted:white Americans are a shitload more homogenous as a whole than Europe as a whole Which doesn't mean much since the non-Hispanic whites made up only 63% of the US population as a whole in 2012 and that number is declining rapidly.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:33
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ekuNNN posted:What measurements do you mean? McDonald's per capita? Number of children killed by drone? Number of medical bankruptcies? Political contributions by multinational corporations? People incarcerated? Percentage of GDP spent on the military? Oh theres all kinds of things american is not #1 at. Education, life expectancy. U can pull out all kinds of graphs and adjust for factors of this or that. But #1 gdp #1 military many times over #1 technological scientific progress #1 energy producer in the world world reserve currency in usd That sweden or singapore or someplace with 10 million population has better income per capita or whatever pales in comparison. If they dont get derailed by internal problems china could take over as #1 dominant country in the world. But until they do theres a clear #1 and that is america. The world trusts them to weild the biggest military without feeling the need to build armies to defend themselves. And trust america to keep the overall world peace. Thats says A LOT. Lay whatever criticisms you want against the US. Even if you hate america to deny their #1 is foolish.
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Jan 17, 2015 23:47
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enraged_camel posted:Which doesn't mean much since the non-Hispanic whites made up only 63% of the US population as a whole in 2012 and that number is declining rapidly. How rapidly is that?
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Jan 17, 2015 23:48
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davidb posted:How rapidly is that? They'll be a minority in about 35 years (or Hispanics will be a majority, I forget which). fake edit: apparently it might be as early as 2043, and they've been revising that year downwards. real edit: 
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Jan 18, 2015 00:16
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doverhog posted:Being passively proud of your country is alright. You like the food, the culture, whatever. If someone talks poo poo about it you might respond with something. Yep. I'm proud of my country because of what it is at the moment, not because of what it has achieved in the past. Free education, healthcare, high HDI, etc. socialism is pretty great. But all the flag worship and poo poo is seriously weird. I don't know why anyone would be proud of USA at the moment unless they value some very different things.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:24
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_IA3stJRoE vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iiv-6fMKyY
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Jan 18, 2015 00:29
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DarkCrawler posted:Yep. I'm proud of my country because of what it is at the moment, not because of what it has achieved in the past. Free education, healthcare, high HDI, etc. socialism is pretty great.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:31
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computer parts posted:They'll be a minority in about 35 years (or Hispanics will be a majority, I forget which). I knew that was the trend. The more education/income people have the less they can be bothered by having children. Theyll say its because of overpopulation, for earth or the economy isnt right. But really its because they care more about their careers and enjoying their lifestyle. Not realizing raising the next generation is the highest calling we have as humans. And career, hobbies, friends are supplimental. Not that it matters if whites are in the majority, majority minority or just minority. Its all skin deep. Theres less genetic difference between asians and tribesman in the congo then there are between chimpanzees of the same clan. On a long enough timeline all humans mix together and u end up with brownish everyone. What matters more is the culture. And hispanics who become successful end up in same position as whites now. In terms of influence, how they view the world, how many children they want. So theres always a upward migration of people from low income/education with lots of babies to high no babies just adopt.
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Jan 18, 2015 00:39
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DarkCrawler posted:Yep. I'm proud of my country because of what it is at the moment, not because of what it has achieved in the past. Free education, healthcare, high HDI, etc. socialism is pretty great. Because they helped stave off russian expansion influence after ww2. Russia collapsed competing in the cold war. Which helped free my country(poland), all of eastern europe, germany from a longer or indefinite control by russia. Without america becoming what it did after ww2 russia would have dominated everything. Space race, nuclear arsenal, concentional military. They crushed nazies and japan not single handedly...but almost. After ww2 they could have kept going. I know my family and friends in poland are very pro American and very grateful for what America has done for the world. Even though America isnt perfect. When you need them their there. Sometimes when you dont need them too but almost always with good intentions. I am thankful for what they did for korea, japan, germany after the wars. Im grateful the example they have set for the rest of the world in terms of promoting democracy even when sometimes its not wanted. Theyve made the world a more peaceful place by weilding the biggest military in the world in such a way that other countries feel secure having a token military. Whatever america becomes in the future or gets overtaken by china later. The world was economically, militarily, democracy, corruption wise better off during their reign. I know its really cool to pretend america is some overhyped hypocritical country. The same way thomas jefferson wasnt a great man because he had slaves. That kind of lofty high horse attitude is common for internet warriors. But from where im standing in the mud america is a beacon of good(even with all its pimples and warts) When i look at russia, china, india the next runner up domimant, future dominant potentials I shudder. They will not weild the cudgel nearly as softly. All 3 have terrible crony, corruption, human rights abuses. And thats from a weak position in the world rankings/influence. Wait until they weild the biggest sticks and see what tune they want everyone to dance to davidb fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jan 18, 2015 |
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Jan 18, 2015 00:55
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davidb posted:Because they helped stave off russian expansion influence after ww2. Russia collapsed competing in the cold war. Which helped free my country, all of eastern europe, germany from a longer or indefinite control by russia. America is just the developed nation with the most people in it and you can't stop dickwaving about it
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Jan 18, 2015 00:57
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Amused to Death posted:America is just the developed nation with the most people in it and you can't stop dickwaving about it What a naive view. Well see how well things go for the world when the torch gets passed to china. The european union has more people and according to the internet warriors on this forum is the yardstick by which to measure the things that matter. So how effective has europe been at handling the real problems of the world? They cant agree to do poo poo. Not even to stop blatant aggression by russia when its repeating hitlers conquest playbook like they didnt learn from 60 years ago. Wheres europes military when you need it? Non existent because its easier to let america do all the dirty work while europeans drink their win/beer and judge from the safety of their computers how it should be done better. But you are right, they are the most developed, with the most population, with biggest military. But where you list those things with derision. I look at that list with respect. Because being big, and developed, and the most powerful and remaining benign is difficult. Which is why theres no one else to compare to. Russia failed on multiple fronts china is rushing to meet america and might surpass them. Or they might falter at the finish line. Yes becoming the best, staying the best is not easy. And until another nation shows how to do it better america gets my respect. Oh and by the way. This isnt my dick to be waiving. Im not a natural american. I can never become president. But my kids can. Im just not naive like you to try ignore whats obvious. If america is not #1 in the world then who is? And dont say no one. Thats like giving everyone trophies for children competitions. There are winners and there are losers. America is a winner. And they make the rest of the world feel safe
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Jan 18, 2015 01:09
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kapparomeo posted:Any European who insists that he doesn't care about nationalism is a bare-faced liar. He only says it so that he can act snooty and stuck-up around Americans.
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Jan 18, 2015 01:11
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