|
davidb posted:Wheres europes military when you need it? Well, where's America's military when Ukraine and Georgia need it?
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:04 |
|
|
davidb posted:The european union has more people and according to the internet warriors on this forum is the yardstick by which to measure the things that matter. So how effective has europe been at handling the real problems of the world? davidb posted:And they make the rest of the world feel safe
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:16
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:America is literally seen as the greatest threat world peace according to Gallup. It's also the most likely place people would move to according to Gallup.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:18
|
|
|
computer parts posted:It's also the most likely place people would move to according to Gallup.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:34
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:While that is true, it's kinda outshone by Australia ... managing to be more attractive to more hypothetical immigrants than live in either country. I'm guessing they primarily polled Europeans.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:35
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:The EU isn't a country. While the EU may not be a country (though it does have lines on a map), it certainly is a State.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:39
|
|
|
karthun posted:While the EU may not be a country (though it does have lines on a map), it certainly is a State.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:40
|
|
karthun posted:While the EU may not be a country (though it does have lines on a map), it certainly is a State. Wrong answer. It really isn't. At all. Nope. It's a forum in which individual states agitate for their interests, it is not a state by any definition.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:41
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:While that is true, it's kinda outshone by Australia and Canada managing to be more attractive to more hypothetical immigrants than live in either country Ah yes, beautiful Manus Island and Nauru.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
davidb posted:Im just not naive like you davidb posted:Im grateful the example they have set for the rest of the world in terms of promoting democracy even when sometimes its not wanted. Hahaha Also, there isn't a big enough  for this:davidb posted:That kind of lofty high horse attitude is common for internet warriors. But from where im standing in the mud america is a beacon of good
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:43
|
|
|
Amused to Death posted:Well, where's America's military when Ukraine and Georgia need it? Ill concede America didnt send their military into ukraine either. America has been dragging Europe kicking and screaming to do whats been done so far in terms of sanctions. Otherwise that wouldnt have been done either. So there is at least that. And of the group of them, any of the European nations has the most to gain, the highest responsibility to defend against Russian aggressian. The fact that America had to step in to do anything is embarrassing. A Buttery Pastry posted:While that is true, it's kinda outshone by Australia and Canada managing to be more attractive to more hypothetical immigrants than live in either country, where the US doesn't even crack 50%. Yes, the US often wins in country vs. country comparisons, but it's mostly sheer numbers making up for middling averages. and yet most still find their way to America. Its not just sheer numbers. Hypothetically an immigrant may move somewhere else. In reality the highest percentage move to America. And their welcome too. The immigrants I have met tend to be the hardest working, the type of mentality that will have someone abandon most of their belongings to start a life in a foreign land tends to be the most motivated sort.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:44
|
|
|
ekuNNN posted:Hahaha ouch, you got me. good one. Since were being childish
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:46
|
|
|
davidb posted:Because they helped stave off russian expansion influence after ww2. Russia collapsed competing in the cold war. Which helped free my country(poland), all of eastern europe, germany from a longer or indefinite control by russia. Yes, if we look at what America did to its allies, yeah, its great! But you know, there are other parts of the world beyond the first, and there it's a long list of human rights abuses, military coups, support of dictatorships, carpet bombings, crushing of democracy, torture, intervention, chemical weapons, economic exploitation, etc. As far as most of the third world can be concerned, United States or Soviets, they were all the same. You may call them "pimples and warts" but you come from a privileged position. Just because America was good for you, it wasn't that for everybody. Why is some Vietnamese dude supposed to feel happy about the fact that US gave France money while bombs are raining down on his village? Is an Iranian dude suffocating on chemical weapons sold to Saddam by US really wrong if he isn't hyped by the fact that Poland was drawn to America's sphere? And if you think that Europe doesn't spend money on its military, you need to take a closer look at military spending. Token military? Well yeah, compared to the US armed forces literally every single army in the existence of human history has been a token army. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Jan 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:49
|
|
davidb posted:And of the group of them, any of the European nations has the most to gain, the highest responsibility to defend against Russian aggressian. The fact that America had to step in to do anything is embarrassing. It's decidedly against the immediate fiscal interests of France and Germany to oppose Russian aggression, likewise for the UK. We're all tied heavily to Russian economic interests. Really, clamping down on Russia is a net loss for us, and other Europeans too. It's still worth it, but talking about it from the point of view of 'gain' is ridiculous. DarkCrawler posted:And if you think that Europe doesn't spend money on its military, you need to take a closer look at military spending. Token military? Well yeah, compared to the US armed forces literally every single army in the existence of human history has been a token army. You need a certain amount of money down to get the gear to fight a war on another continent semi-independently, something only France and the UK have shown capability to do in recent times. But yes, the idea that Europe is a continent of military minnows is misleading. It's just not mobilised towards potential multi-continental major conflict at all times. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 02:00 on Jan 18, 2015 |
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:50
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:America is literally seen as the greatest threat world peace according to Gallup. computer parts posted:It's also the most likely place people would move to according to Gallup. Yep, because if there's any kind of world war, America would win. So wanting to move here makes perfect sense.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 01:59
|
|
|
The way the U.S. has historically experienced foreign immigration - from people who had it real bad else where - gives us a bit of swagger. There is this notion that the U.S. could open it's borders today, and by tomorrow the rest of the planet would be a Chernobyl-style ghost town. That notion is probably true for many parts of Latin America. In other words, people in Britain would have a very different level of national pride if they had shared a huge border with India for the last hundred years.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:00
|
|
|
so what you're saying is that the US is a racist, imperialist state convinced of its superiority over the hispanic untermenschen? pretty good summary IMO
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:05
|
|
|
Phyzzle posted:The way the U.S. has historically experienced foreign immigration - from people who had it real bad else where - gives us a bit of swagger. There is this notion that the U.S. could open it's borders today, and by tomorrow the rest of the planet would be a Chernobyl-style ghost town. That notion is probably true for many parts of Latin America. Eh, the US hates Mexicans more than (e.g.) Somalians* precisely because we shared a border with them. Europe has the same problem with Arabs in general, even/especially because they take the same low paying jobs that Mexicans do in the US. *Not to be confused with African Americans, who Americans hate quite a bit.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:06
|
|
computer parts posted:Eh, the US hates Mexicans more than (e.g.) Somalians* precisely because we shared a border with them. Europe has the same problem with Arabs in general, even/especially because they take the same low paying jobs that Mexicans do in the US. In rich European countries, as many low paying jobs are being done by eastern Europeans as by Arabs et al. Also, France and the UK in particular have ex-colonial populations (e.g. the 1,000,000 Indians in the UK, similar number of black people from former African colonies and the West Indies) in addition to a later generation of immigrants and asylum seekers. It's a more complex phenomenon than that.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:10
|
|
|
I won't go into what my own opinions of the USA are, but I'd say that given my American relatives they're generally more positive than most Europeans. From speaking to a hell of a lot of foreign students during my masters course it seems that those who would even consider the USA as a destination for starting a new life are overwhelmingly from developing countries. To me it seems most likely the disadvantages of living in a country with inadequate public healthcare, inadequate gun control, a weak social security system and almost mandatory higher education which is quite expensive for lower classes to achieve are par for the course for someone from Africa or most of Asia. I have mentioned to some friends, why wouldn't you consider working in America when you have such a competitive degree and the salaries are so high, but essentially unanimously they agree that they want to spend their life in Europe. The USA looks entirely different depending on where it's viewed from.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:12
|
|
|
The US isn't that much less cosmopolitan or liberal than most Euro countries, the difference is that American conservatives are a united block and so have much more power, while Euro conservatives are divided by nationality while the liberals generally are not with recent events however that might change as the Eurozone continues its slow implosion and the European right continues its rise
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 02:36
|
|
|
^^^ Yeah, one thing I'm willing to defend the US about is that I don't think it's inherently more racist than most European (or any other) countries. We've just had far more problems due to such a large portion of our population being made up of minorities. If the UK or France suddenly had millions of black immigrants or something they'd probably be at least as racist towards them (if not more).davidb posted:ouch, you got me. good one. Since were being childish Well, your views about history and the world in general are more or less those of a child. I mean, it's like you're taking what we teach 6th graders and just assuming that's how the world works. While there's obviously no way to give some objective "#1" reward to a country, "highest quality of life for its citizens" is probably the closest measure and America is objectively a worse place to live than many other countries for the majority of its citizens (pretty much anyone who isn't rich or upper middle class; a poor or middle class person is better off in many other countries than they would be in America). It also objectively has worse social/economic mobility than many other countries. Like another poster said, you're basically just taking a bunch of stats that are just the natural result of "being a large country with a lot of people" and "being fortunate enough to be an ocean apart from the rest of the developed world that was wrecked by WW2." Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Jan 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 03:04
|
|
|
Volcott posted:I'm an American. I was talking with someone from the United Kingdom recently, and we really couldn't understand each other's views on patriotism. I realize that my country has done some terrible things over the years, but I'm still proud to live here. As a country, we've accomplished amazing things. I think it's simply a matter of: It's decent to live here, but we've killed some people. v. We've killed people, it's decent to live here, but we've killed some people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 03:06
|
|
|
computer parts posted:Eh, the US hates Mexicans more than (e.g.) Somalians* precisely because we shared a border with them. Europe has the same problem with Arabs in general, even/especially because they take the same low paying jobs that Mexicans do in the US. I think much more interesting is the way African Americans hate Hispanics.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 03:17
|
|
|
Anosmoman posted:Different strokes. Lots of people up and leave their country in a heartbeat and then turn out to be perfectly happy or maybe even like it more there. Are Americans typically proud of the state they live in? More than you might think, although of course it varies widely between states, regions within those states, and demographic groups. I remember in 2009 or so, shortly before I left Michigan to move to France, I saw a poll in the Detroit Free Press about state pride, and I still remember it because something like 80% of Michiganders said they love Michigan and only 15% said it was "the best place to live". Also, as much as Europeans are weirded out by US flags everywhere there are states where you'll see state flags all over the place too. Again, this varies enormously between states and regions within states but there are places where it gets pretty ridiculous. Texas is the obvious example but also places you wouldn't necessarily expect, like Colorado. Note that I'm not saying that Americans feel about their states the way Europeans feel about their countries, I'm just saying that a feeling of attachment to one's state is a thing that exists and is not all that uncommon. Colorado flags in downtown Denver.  Also, there's a market for garbage like this so somebody must be buying it. http://downwithdetroit.com/Michigan.html
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 10:30
|
|
|
American living in France here. It always surprised me that I never see any French flags here, compared to in the US when pretty much every house/office/shopping mall has one flying every day. I asked some native French people about that and they said it's because today, overt displays of nationalist pride (like flying a flag) are considered to be the domain of the far-right. So, to answer the question in the thread title, I guess if you consider it unfashionable to be part of the far-right, you would consider it unfashionable to be overtly proud of your country. For me, I still fly an American flag whenever I'm back in the US, because I support the ideals that I believe the flag represents. Sure, maybe America has made some dick moves in the past (and of course what these events were and just how dickish they were will depend on how they affected you), but it has also done some pretty great things, and I'm proud of that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 10:35
|
|
|
Here in Brittany and you see tons of regional flags all over the place, in windows, on people's cars, on hats, on shirts, but absolutely no French flags apart from those on state buildings. The normal Breton flag isn't really associated with the far right (except by some idiots in Paris) and the local far right uses their own creepy flags so they remain easy to spot. Even far left wing groups plaster the flag everywhere, this is a far-left separatist fringe group. Regionalist politics can get really weird.  And here's an episode of a local sitcom gently making fun of people who take the flag too seriously (non-French dialogue is subtitled in French) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWJzLfJZ_kg
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 11:45
|
|
|
Amused to Death posted:Well, where's America's military when Ukraine and Georgia need it? Damned if we do. Damned if we don't. Although I do find it interesting that Europeans overwhelmingly want the US military out of Europe. And yet we are supposed to be the ones that intervene in their own back yard. I think Europe likes it that way. You can call on America to do the heavy lifting and then blame us when it all goes to poo poo. crabcakes66 fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Jan 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 11:56
|
|
|
FPS_Sage posted:American living in France here. It always surprised me that I never see any French flags here, compared to in the US when pretty much every house/office/shopping mall has one flying every day. I asked some native French people about that and they said it's because today, overt displays of nationalist pride (like flying a flag) are considered to be the domain of the far-right. So, to answer the question in the thread title, I guess if you consider it unfashionable to be part of the far-right, you would consider it unfashionable to be overtly proud of your country. For me, I still fly an American flag whenever I'm back in the US, because I support the ideals that I believe the flag represents. Sure, maybe America has made some dick moves in the past (and of course what these events were and just how dickish they were will depend on how they affected you), but it has also done some pretty great things, and I'm proud of that. Vaguely acknowledging your countries' atrocities as "a bit bag i guess if you were the victim maybe" before forgetting about it and chanting for the USA! USA! USA! that never was and never will be is a pretty loving far-right thing to do. The rest of the world is creeped out by the uncle sam personality cult because it's incredibly dangerous and a clear influence on your leader's decisions to go international dickwaving with guns and bombs. The only thing worse than a "master race" is one that thinks it's being benevolent.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 12:02
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 12:15
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:Yep, because if there's any kind of world war, America would win. In a nuclear war (which a serious world war would be) surely the best place to go would be a country nobody gives enough of a poo poo about to nuke
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 12:36
|
|
Torka posted:In a nuclear war (which a serious world war would be) surely the best place to go would be a country nobody gives enough of a poo poo about to nuke I believe that the place predicted to to be best off in the event of full-blown nuclear confrontation was Tazmania.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 12:42
|
|
|
crabcakes66 posted:Although I do find it interesting that Europeans overwhelmingly want the US military out of Europe. Do they really? I feel like after Russia started doing the poo poo it's been doing lately that has changed. NATO definitely seems more relevant these days.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 12:56
|
|
|
America isn't even a democracy itself, let alone some sort of force for spreading democracy around the world. e: That said, it's still fun to root for in sports and making fun of Canadians is important.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 13:06
|
|
|
crabcakes66 posted:Damned if we do. Damned if we don't. Nah Europe is fine with US troops stationed here. You showed some real nice leadership and character during ww2. Some people over here in Europe, and I'm not calling names, had a temporary slip of sanity and tried to make soap, lamp shades and and u-boat socks out of the rest. You really came through and helped us deal with this situation. You earned the right to wear that crown and all the benefits and responsibilities that come with it. We don't really care about your flag, the American dream or all that other tacky cultists crap. Just do your job as the King right. You showed some really lovely performance in the last decade and trust in your abilities and sanity took a serious blow.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 14:48
|
|
|
enraged_camel posted:I think much more interesting is the way African Americans hate Hispanics. I mean it's the same reason poor whites hate Hispanics but with the added benefit of "we really have been utterly screwed over for hundreds of years". doverhog posted:Do they really? I feel like after Russia started doing the poo poo it's been doing lately that has changed. NATO definitely seems more relevant these days. It's less of a thing with Russia but when Libya was going down the Europeans wanted the US to take charge, which is a far cry from their criticisms of us as world police only a few years prior.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 14:51
|
|
|
Maybe you'd find more people proud of their county in Europe if y'all stopped hanging around with people from the political left. Just an idea.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 14:52
|
|
computer parts posted:It's less of a thing with Russia but when Libya was going down the Europeans wanted the US to take charge, which is a far cry from their criticisms of us as world police only a few years prior. The US has the best capabilities, but France inparticular showed a willingness to press on.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 14:53
|
|
|
computer parts posted:It's less of a thing with Russia but when Libya was going down the Europeans wanted the US to take charge, which is a far cry from their criticisms of us as world police only a few years prior. A few years prior the US was invading Iraq.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 14:57
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 10, 2024 18:04 |
|
|
computer parts posted:It's less of a thing with Russia but when Libya was going down the Europeans wanted the US to take charge, which is a far cry from their criticisms of us as world police only a few years prior. Europeans didn't like it when the US did stupid poo poo like invade Iraq for no reason, and asked the US to do stuff that wasn't so stupid? You don't say.
|
|
#
?
Jan 18, 2015 15:11
|
|
