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PFO is a level 1 mmo/level 3 overambitious failure/level 6 dancey project/level 2 fighter
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Jul 24, 2017 14:33
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It's all true, pencil & paper rpgs can be tedious.
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Jul 24, 2017 15:54
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Firstborn posted:It's all true, pencil & paper rpgs can be tedious. When you combine the tedium of mmos is it additive or multiplicative?
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Jul 24, 2017 15:56
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Firstborn posted:It's all true, pencil & paper rpgs can be tedious.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:12
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Pac-Manioc Root posted:D&D4e was the best one and too good for the grognards who hated it. It was really good because hey holy poo poo every single class including the humble fighter could ACTUALLY do poo poo rather than the great and glorious wizard conquering the world with two spells. I can't remember, did Pathfinder actually keep the weird attack progression fighters had at one point where they'd get an extra half of an attack so every other round they got a bonus attack, and it was always with a weapon that was a single die while the WHIZZARD was like 'hey guys I had to spend twenty bucks to get extra d12s so I could actually keep casting my spells?'
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Jul 24, 2017 16:23
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The ironic bad thing about 4e is that it contains most of the tools necessary to correct its own flaws, but they never used Dragon and the online character builder to fix the character options that are underpowered.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:36
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John Dyne posted:I can't remember, did Pathfinder actually keep the weird attack progression fighters had at one point where they'd get an extra half of an attack so every other round they got a bonus attack, and it was always with a weapon that was a single die while the WHIZZARD was like 'hey guys I had to spend twenty bucks to get extra d12s so I could actually keep casting my spells?' nope, pathfinder uses the same system for attack progression that 3e uses, so they only get their extra attacks if they don't move and each attack after the first is made at a progressively larger penalty
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Jul 24, 2017 16:38
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D&D uses "linear fighters, quadratic wizards". It's intended.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:44
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John Dyne posted:I can't remember, did Pathfinder actually keep the weird attack progression fighters had at one point where they'd get an extra half of an attack so every other round they got a bonus attack It was Advanced Dungeons & Dragons that did that. For whatever reason, probably because it would have been too dramatic a power bump to just double a Fighter's damage in one go, they didn't want to give a Fighter a second attack, period, so an AD&D Fighter went from 1 attack per round, to 2 attacks every 3 rounds (even numbered rounds got 1 attack, odd numbered rounds got 2 attacks), then to 2 attacks per round, then 5 attacks every 3 rounds (even numbered rounds got 2 attacks, odd numbered rounds got 3 attacks). When D&D entered its 3rd Edition, instead of this even/odd scheme, subsequent attacks simply got a -5 penalty so that it wouldn't be as valuable as a second attack. Pathfinder inherited this model. The problem with this model was that a -5 penalty would arguably be more complicated to track than alternating rounds, and the change in how movement and actions worked in transitioning from AD&D to 3e meant that you needed to "Full Attack" in order to get the extra attacks (meaning you can't move more than 5 feet at a time), and the game was pretty bad actually letting Fighters do that. The other big problem was that while you earned another attack every 5 BAB, you'd also put on another -5 penalty, so your attacks at level 15 were something like +15/+10/+5, and that last attack had virtually zero chance of hitting except if it hit. d20 derivatives had a couple of different answers to this: Trailblazer changed the model so that when you got to +6 BAB, you'd get a second attack, and both your attacks were at -2. When you got to +11 BAB, both your attacks were at -1. When you got to +16 BAB, there was no penalty at all. Legend RPG didn't escalate the penalty past the first -5, so a level 11 Fighter would be swinging at +11/+6/+6, rather than +11/+6/+1 FantasyCraft, True20/Blue Rose and Star Wars SAGA only ever gave you a single attack and did away with multiple attacks altogether, but they also mucked around with the straight traditional HP model so that single attacks were still valuable.
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Jul 24, 2017 16:54
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And Pathfinder did fuckall!
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Jul 24, 2017 18:21
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Firstborn posted:D&D uses "linear fighters, quadratic wizards". It's intended.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:53
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No you see the wizard has earned his power by being weaker starting out and having to play smarter. Not like that DUMB JOCK FIGHTER.
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Jul 24, 2017 18:57
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gradenko_2000 posted:
This COULD have worked by balancing the target ACs around the lower attack rolls, which I suspect was the original intention. That way, the attacks with the high bonuses are basically automatic hits, the lower attack rolls are basically bonus damage, and classes with lovely BAB can still participate in the attack vs. AC game. At level 20, a fighter has +20/+15/+10/+5, where a wizard has +10/+5. If the game were balanced around the lower BAB, then the wizard would have 1 probable hit and 1 maybe hit, where the fighter would have two autohits, one probably hit, and 1 maybe hit. This would make fighters actually do more damage as they go up in levels, and give them enough bonus to their attack rolls that they can actually use those lovely combat stunt feats that apply a penalty to attack. Instead, they balanced around the fighter's +20, so the fighter gets one probably hit, one maybe hit, and two waste of time rolls, for a net gain of gently caress-all damage compared to previous levels, while the wizard doesn't even try for his waste of time roll and just magics the problem away.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:10
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Firstborn posted:D&D uses "linear fighters, quadratic wizards". It's intended. Intended but still garbage.
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Jul 24, 2017 19:42
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Goa Tse-tung posted:as opposed to the Pretty Pretty Good feat, which plays music whenever you would need the Pretty Good feat
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Jul 24, 2017 23:47
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A Catastrophe posted:And so it came to pass that Pathfinder Online never died, because a small handful of people kept paying for the rackspace and nobody in all of Paizodom had the backbone to tell the higher ups to let it die and stop wasting people's time. This is literally most MMOs though.
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Jul 25, 2017 00:35
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30.5 Days posted:And Pathfinder did fuckall! They did create the Vital Strike feats that sort of allow you to make "half-full attacks", but rolling your weapon dice for every attack you should have had is so much less effective than the Charge/Pounce/Shock Trooper and Dungeoncrasher tricks of 3.5 because you're missing out on the flat modifiers. Tendales posted:This COULD have worked by balancing the target ACs around the lower attack rolls, which I suspect was the original intention. That way, the attacks with the high bonuses are basically automatic hits, the lower attack rolls are basically bonus damage, and classes with lovely BAB can still participate in the attack vs. AC game. Okay, so I may have overstated how dire it was: By level 9 and onwards, assuming a Fighter gets proper wealth-by-level and loot, their highest BAB attacks are always going to hit except on a 1. That is, a level 16 Fighter is going to be rolling d20+30 versus an AC 27 monster. Their first iterative is also going to hit 95% of the time, missing only on a nat 1 Their second iterative is going to hit 70% of the time Their third iterative (their fourth attack total) is going to hit 45% of the time So it does work, theoretically, but this "balance of power" relies on a bunch of spinning plates: * the Fighter needs to be getting appropriate wealth-by-level (and how many DM's have tried to run "low-magic" campaigns?) * the Fighter needs to be able to buy the right items given that kind of wealth * the DM needs to be pulling appropriate monsters from the MM and isn't arbitrarily pulling high AC bonuses * the Fighter needs to be in a state to actually full attack, meaning he's not disabled, stunned or whatever else from having a low Will save * the Fighter needs to be in a position to actually full attack, meaning the monster is within 5-foot-step range or the Fighter has Pounce/Shock Trooper (and even then is still screwed if the monster is flying) If just any one of those things doesn't line up, too bad.
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Jul 25, 2017 03:32
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dwarf74 posted:Hey, there's a commonality between PFO and PF - treating bugs as features! You really think fighters being lovely and wizards being gods at high level is a bug? It's a fantasy trope that wizards are weedy booknerds who can fall down and lose their 1d4 HP and die somehow from the fall distance of their head to the floor who then go on to do ridiculous summoning of personal palaces and conjuring fire realms and poo poo.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:29
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Firstborn posted:You really think fighters being lovely and wizards being gods at high level is a bug? It's a fantasy trope that wizards are weedy booknerds who can fall down and lose their 1d4 HP and die somehow from the fall distance of their head to the floor who then go on to do ridiculous summoning of personal palaces and conjuring fire realms and poo poo. Doesn't make for fun games though.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:52
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Well, it can but that's entirely in spite of the system, not because of it.
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Jul 25, 2017 04:55
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Firstborn posted:You really think fighters being lovely and wizards being gods at high level is a bug? It's a fantasy trope that wizards are weedy booknerds who can fall down and lose their 1d4 HP and die somehow from the fall distance of their head to the floor who then go on to do ridiculous summoning of personal palaces and conjuring fire realms and poo poo. ...Which was started by D&D, it was definitely not a thing in any of its inspirations.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:09
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Firstborn posted:You really think fighters being lovely and wizards being gods at high level is a bug? It's a fantasy trope that wizards are weedy booknerds who can fall down and lose their 1d4 HP and die somehow from the fall distance of their head to the floor who then go on to do ridiculous summoning of personal palaces and conjuring fire realms and poo poo.
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Jul 25, 2017 05:34
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Eopia posted:...Which was started by D&D, it was definitely not a thing in any of its inspirations. Right?! The Fellowship was basically a collection of Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, Bards, and maybe Paladins and Barbarians. Gandalf was basically a deus ex machina ... which then segues into "but D&D Wizards are deus ex machina! HAW HAW HAW"
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Jul 25, 2017 05:43
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Eopia posted:...Which was started by D&D, it was definitely not a thing in any of its inspirations. Seriously the quintessential "wizard who starts out frail as gently caress then goes on to battle gods" character is Raistlin, a literal D&D character. Hell, the books that D&D's magic style comes from is one where the most powerful wizards know maybe half a dozen spells at most and are very rarely actually casting anything. The fictional wizard that most nerds grew up knowing about was Gandalf, who wielded a sword in battle multiple times.
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Jul 25, 2017 07:18
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So much of male-dominated geek fandom, of every sort, is predicated on the idea that rote memorization is proof of great intelligence. With that in mind, it's no wonder that the inspiration from Jack Vance's actual writing fell to the wayside in favour of "big words" and "geeks are gods because they memorize dozens of spells."
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Jul 25, 2017 08:10
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Halloween Jack posted:So much of male-dominated geek fandom, of every sort, is predicated on the idea that rote memorization is proof of great intelligence. With that in mind, it's no wonder that the inspiration from Jack Vance's actual writing fell to the wayside in favour of "big words" and "geeks are gods because they memorize dozens of spells." There's a pen and paper Warhammer Fantasy game where the vast majority of the population is illiterate and it leads to great moments where the heroes realize the owner of the ancient and evil tome they found in the ancient and evil shrine under the tavern is probably the one guy in the city who can loving read. It also has an actual turd salesman as a starting career option because the player characters are all basic shitheels who can barely find their asses with both hands and a map, and oh hey you idiots need to go fight a vampire, good luck and have fun.
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Jul 25, 2017 10:59
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John Dyne posted:There's a pen and paper Warhammer Fantasy game where the vast majority of the population is illiterate and it leads to great moments where the heroes realize the owner of the ancient and evil tome they found in the ancient and evil shrine under the tavern is probably the one guy in the city who can loving read. Dungeon Crawl Classics does a similar thing, but even moreso if you can believe it.
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Jul 25, 2017 13:43
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Shadows of the Demon Lord has a good WFRP vibe going too. To the point that one of the 'unique items' you can start with is a 'small dog notable for its viciousness.'
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Jul 25, 2017 16:25
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unseenlibrarian posted:Shadows of the Demon Lord has a good WFRP vibe going too. To the point that one of the 'unique items' you can start with is a 'small dog notable for its viciousness.' Yeah WFRPs rat catcher has a "small, but vicious dog" WFRP owns
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Jul 25, 2017 18:07
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I want to use SotDL to play WFRP or a similar setting; my one quibble is that Professions in SotDL aren't as integral to your character as they are in WFRP.
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Jul 25, 2017 18:17
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John Dyne posted:There's a pen and paper Warhammer Fantasy game where the vast majority of the population is illiterate and it leads to great moments where the heroes realize the owner of the ancient and evil tome they found in the ancient and evil shrine under the tavern is probably the one guy in the city who can loving read. So many parties have been saved from certain doom by the appearance of a small but vicious dog at the right moment.
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Jul 26, 2017 07:57
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Roadie posted:So many parties have been saved from certain doom by the appearance of a small but vicious dog at the right moment. Warhammer is not and has never really been my thing, but I have to admit that when i looked at the starting inventories for one of the character classes and saw that it included "fleas", I was kind of hooked.
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Jul 27, 2017 03:06
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Pathfinder online is still not a thing! As a special bonus the link to "Paizo Inc." doesn't even work.
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Oct 31, 2017 03:11
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Warhammer is not and has never really been my thing, but I have to admit that when i looked at the starting inventories for one of the character classes and saw that it included "fleas", I was kind of hooked. Warhammer fantasy is very very different to Warhammer 40,000 and doesn't go for a grim dark over the top type of tone. It tends to not even do 'gritty' exactly but more of a 'man theres some dangerous stuff out there, lets figure out how we can get ahead by taking it out' kind of tone.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:44
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Checked in because of the $1 to charity key and has the game not changed in like 3 years? It seems identical and even emptier.. it's almost impressive.
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Nov 7, 2017 05:42
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Emptier is still a change
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Nov 7, 2017 20:40
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kingcom posted:Warhammer fantasy is very very different to Warhammer 40,000 and doesn't go for a grim dark over the top type of tone. It tends to not even do 'gritty' exactly but more of a 'man theres some dangerous stuff out there, lets figure out how we can get ahead by taking it out' kind of tone. Warhammer Fantasy was the best thing Games Workshop ever did, but since its GW they nuked the entire world (literally with a magic evil bomb) and then re-did it to be Warhams 40k but its fantasy. Now its shite.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:02
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Laphroaig posted:Warhammer Fantasy was the best thing Games Workshop ever did, but since its GW they nuked the entire world (literally with a magic evil bomb) and then re-did it to be Warhams 40k but its fantasy. Man I remember when this happened, they made the poster-boys a faction of literally faceless, nearly identical bulky warriors in The fluff was that they were immortal and when they died they returned to fight again with basically no risk and no stakes. It was like they were defying you to care about the new, themeparky boring setting by making the hero faction completely bland and unrelatable. Why yes, I did miss my faction of slashed sleeve feather-capped landschnekt lightly steampunk prussians who were just regular clock-punching dudes with regular mortal passions fighting weird monsters.
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Nov 8, 2017 22:07
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Man, gently caress the Sigmarines. They also made Nagash, the first necromancer and a guy who had lived for millennia trying to destroy all life on the planet so he can rule in undeath because he's pissed he couldn't be king, a good guy. He is now part of the good guys, alongside the witch king of the dark elves who also had daddy issues and was pissed he was denied to be king of the elves because he was evil poo poo who also did the fusion dance with his dragon. Age of Sigmar just sucks. RIP the Time of Legends.
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Nov 9, 2017 00:02
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Guys the fine people at Path Finder On Line have figured out what the game is missing... ...ammunition use.
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Nov 15, 2017 22:11
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