Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I'm mad that that lovely coffee quest with like 10 different fetch-quest steps is somehow still in the game after almost 2 months

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

ScorpioMajesty posted:

So what do, YOU people! Think should be done to better the game known as Starbound?
I haven't read a Starbound thread in months but way back in the other one I made this post in response to Nerdz:

IronicDongz posted:

the actual problem is that monsters all fill very similar roles.
You know how in super metroid(an exploration heavy game, which is fun) there are creatures that cling to walls and climb all around in caves, there are hopping creatures, there are small creatures that are attached to each other in a mass which they detach from when shot, creatures which move in a group, there are creatures which are essentially floating mines, there are creatures that hide in lava or sand, there are creatures that produce light, there are creatures like moray eels which retract into the walls, there are creatures that block hallways, there are creatures who lose their wings upon taking damage, creatures who cling to the ceiling and divebomb you, creatures which roll around in armor, mouths attached to the ceiling, fish, antlion things which wait underwater to pull you in when you go near, etc. etc. etc.

Meanwhile, Starbound has three enemy types-or, being generous, 6. Ground monster(melee and projectile), flying monster(melee and projectile), humanoid(melee and projectile).
There may be many more technically, due to the randomization, but the differences are quite shallow. You're not gonna engage 2 different melee ground monsters in a significantly different way, or 2 different flying projectile monsters. The only exception to this is if you fight out of the depth your armor/weapon tier allows, in which case you get 1-2 shot instead of 2-4 shot. Even given how hard it is to make a procedural generation system that feels consistently fresh, it's really disappointing.
This is still the biggest problem with Starbound spelunking and combat.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

QUACKTASTIC posted:

Now is the winter of our discount content
I just read the whole thread and this was the best post in it

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
Terraria's expert mode is kicking my rear end, but I'm having a lot of fun getting my rear end kicked by all the different types of enemies and eventually overcoming them. That is something I would never say about a game where there's like 2 different enemies that show up over and over again wearing different clown costumes each time

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
like, you go to the jungle and it's got these hornets and maneater plants and things. stuff inflicts poison, which at that point you've never seen before. slimes and aerial enemies with projectiles is new at that point. the way the maneaters work as stationary creatures with long stretching necks that pass through terrain makes your positioning/approach really matter. this is how you make enemies feel interesting from one place to the next

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
someone needs to do some mod managment

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Cicadas! posted:

In today's Starbound news, crops now need water to grow, and flat out won't grow without them. About every stage's worth of growth water must be reapplied, in addition to the normal time required for the plant to grow. The only things that can water plants are rain and a watering can that looks hard to aim (he fucks it up repeatedly in the demonstration .gif). In addition, the process can't be automated in any way whatsoever, and trying to run water over your plants to speed up the process breaks your crops returning only seeds, regardless of growth state.

Please understand
that this game is turning into a loving parody of itself
are you loving kidding me

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
either they're petty children or just literally idiots

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
Even in that context, creatures are still boring. They all come in the same shapes and sizes and do basically the same poo poo.
They all:
-Are the same size
-Move by either walking, or flying
-Attack either by touching you in mildly different ways, or shooting mildly different projectiles
-Have basically the same HP and do basically the same damage per area

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point but I really do think that you can get a good idea of enemy variety in an exploration-based game from Metroids.
You've got:
-Enemies that come in sizes from large to tiny
-Move by walking, flying, floating, bouncing, burrowing, crawling along walls and ceilings, swimming, hiding in lava or sand, stationary enemies, etc.
-Enemies that attack by touching you(but they all have differing movement patterns beyond 'walk and jump at player' so it feels different), shooting you, spawning other enemies or leaving behind enemies on death, teleporting onto or nearby the player, attaching onto and draining the player, exploding or retaliating damage with poison gas, jumping straight up then dropping projectiles as they fall, sniping the player from hard to reach places, stretching to grab the player, etc.
-...and then they all have varying HP and damage, even within a single area of generally consistent difficulty, and different enemies are vulnerable to different things or need to be attacked in certain spots to do damage.

And of course instead of all wearing different clown suits their look generally indicates something about how they act(small enemies are weaker, the puffers have nozzles from which they spew gas, etc.) and are thematically consistent.

Terraria's a lot better in this regard-it's got enemies with legitimately different movement, including enemies that burrow through walls or stay stationary and reach for you, or teleport, and again enemy toughness and function varies within single areas and their look indicates something about what they do(that skeleton with a wizard hat is probably gonna use magic, that skeleton with hoplite armor will probably use a weapon)

LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Jul 22, 2015

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
but anyway random monster generation is easy and provides unlimited interesting monsters, just slap something together

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I still wish that you could turn any block into pixels, and make any block from pixels. At the start I thought that's what the system was gonna be, I thought that mining and gathering materials would be way more streamlined and convenient. :smith:

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I think it depends on the specific update but fairly often saves n such will get wrecked if you use dailies yeah

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I'm still in favor of loosely copying different enemy types from 2d metroid games

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
If you think Starbound is a "classic" then you don't know what a "classic" is

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I wonder what other "science fiction games" it was being compared to

I mean fallout 4 was sort of disappointing, but

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Jackard posted:

Both games are awful, one is just more awful than the other.
Terraria's pretty ok actually.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
It actually has pretty good combat and great multiplayer, doing stuff like blood moons or big boss battles with friends is very fun

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
Yeah terraria having more than 5 different monsters is a big plus

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
It's also not at all like Starbound, because your guns are fun and satisfying in the first place and the shinespark exists primarily as a way to reach new areas, limited in interesting ways by the level layout, and when you use it to kill things it's not because your weaponry isn't enough it's because you really want to kill things in a badass way.

also Super Metroid has more than 5 different enemies

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Sloppy Milkshake posted:

no it's really, really bad like i get that some of you probably played it 10000 years ago and it was great for the time but it's awful right now in tyool 2016
I literally just went and redownloaded it and played it right now, while I am making this post, and it's very good and fun I'm sorry about your bad opinions disease

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
Movement is weighty and deliberate but if you can use the momentum you can build up a lot of speed. You have few movement options, but they're all fairly important, and there's a lot of depth to getting around the map and approaching enemies. Gunplay is super satisfying and they got the exact right balance of projectile travel time+player size on screen to make out-aiming your opponent difficult, but not frustrating.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I don't know where it came from, but I was definitely originally under the impression that Starbound was gonna be like... this huge thing where you could drop on and off other player's planets with ease, like it'd be an always online thing and the reason there could be so so many planets seeded was so that people could all have their own planets.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
sounds cool. it'd also be cool if "building your own ship" in a game genre that specifically is about building whatever you want with what you find, in a game in space where you fly around in a ship, was not something that was relegated to "well, you can mod it in" status instead of being seen as an obviously important feature that the base game should have

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
Her damage is actually very bad.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
not having any meaningful differences between the different species is loving lame. give the birds power armor that lets them fly. give humans increased bartering capability or something. give the novakids cool different weapons. let everyone build different guns based on their species and loot/buy the others off of NPCs goddamn it

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
stuff like "temporary flight based on equipment" is stuff that is already actually in the game on other stuff so it'd actually be remarkably easy. stuff like number tweaks(eg faster ground speed) would be even easier

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
"Despite somewhat different speeds, animations, damage and so on. The gameplay here was very limited. When projectiles move almost directly to you every projectile can be avoided by waiting for a windup animation to play and moving directly out of the line of fire" yeah man projectiles being fairly simple to dodge if they're all just basic aimed projectiles is definitely a problem that needed to be fixed, lmao, god drat.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I made this post in loving 2014 and they still haven't figured out that their random monsters are dull as poo poo and don't feel meaningfully different. are they playing the game? are they fighting these monsters, and having fun?

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Babe Magnet posted:

Food doesn't stack anymore lol

Babe Magnet posted:

Food rots now.
:yikes:

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Tengames posted:

was phone posting before so re-reading tiy's explination goddamn its just so loving robotic

He realizes that just aiming the projectile at the player makes them easy to dodge , but cant seem to connect the dots as to why you wouldn't have every projectile just aim directly at the player. or to put it simply(edit: 4:57, apparently youtube timestamp links dont work very well.)
Maybe if dude had played a game with more of an emphasis on shooting before, he'd understand how to make more involved projectile patterns which can be tricky to dodge, but instead he (poorly)takes inspiration from castlevania for the space legos game

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

The White Dragon posted:

The thing is, it works in the right context. Most Gradius-alikes that aren't bullet hells have enemies who shoot at your current position rather than trying to be predictive about it, but while it's easy to dodge each one individually, they do it in such a volume that you need to consider the best timing to get through the "net." Alternatively, it can be designed to encourage preventive offense: high volume of enemies with delayed attacks that you're meant to thin out before they can trap you. Sometimes it isn't even that complex, it's just an exercise in dodging a series of simple-AI projectiles that restrict your movement options.

Of course, this breaks down in Starbound, where enemies can shoot at you from far off screen and have such a high repeat rate that there either aren't any safe zones, or there's no chance to shoot back.
Many shmups do also have bullet patterns that are not aimed mixed in with the ones that are, though. I would go as far as to say most do.

Also, in the context of a 2d game, I think it makes sense to typically split attacks into 3 broad types: attacks that make you dodge vertically, attacks that make you dodge horizontally, and attacks that make you dodge both vertically and horizontally. As a basic example, Woodman in Megaman 2 drops leaves from the ceiling, which you must move left and right to avoid(horizontal dodging), and throws his leaf shield at you which you must jump over(vertical dodging).
But in Starbound, every projectile is nearly always dodged vertically(by jumping over them), since enemies almost always approached you horizontally and shoot aimed shots from them to you(so horizontal shots). There could be more in the way of "enemies throwing grenades that arc up, then fall down sharply and explode with an AoE" to demand vertical motion from the player with more complexity than "back away from enemy/move towards enemy".

LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 10:05 on Feb 24, 2016

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Johnny Joestar posted:

fun fact: i genuinely never gave a poo poo about sand surfing and the removal of it really had no effect on me. why it's the posterchild for this shambling heap of bad ideas is beyond me
because it was a fun thing to do and there was no goddamn reason to get rid of it. it was petty.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
I think it's very important that in dark souls, the windup animations on attack exist in order for the players to learn to time their invincibility on rolls in order to avoid damage. enemies have much more windup than the player for this reason, you're gonna be doing PvE much more than PvP-but player attacks still have quite a bit of windup too, not only because PvP is also an important part of the game(invasions!), but to make the player be deliberate in their attacks and spacing around enemies. Whenever the player attacks, it's a commitment, because you can't roll for invincibility like you normally could until the attack ends. You're reducing your options because it locks you into place, so you have to think about when you do it. Do I attack now, or do I wait because I might need to roll instead?

But you don't loving have a dodge roll with invincibility frames in starbound so "committing" to an attack doesn't mean much because you're not losing the option of rolling-and even if you were, you can still move. So why do all the weapons have such huge attack delay?

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

tooterfish posted:

You need to go play DCSS.

I was going to say any roguelike, but DCSS was a procedural Dark Souls before Dark Souls was even a thing.

edit: more words.
Yeah I was gonna say, it's very possible to have a good game that is difficult while also being procedurally generated.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
Stardew Valley is fine but the movespeed sucks, even for a slow Harvest Moon/Rune Factory type game.

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

LordZoric posted:

This feature sounds suspiciously similar to how certain item collectors work in new hit game Stardew Valley.
Honestly I think it's good for games to crib nice features from each other all the time. i ain't gonna be salty about this, just about all the other stuff

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

Party Plane Jones posted:

So they've added Bioshock Infinite to the list of games they're copying now?

Those were in the works a long, long time ago, and "has rails" doesn't really mean "copying bioshock infinite". Unless we're gonna say that terraria is copying dwarf fortress because it has minecarts or something.

Tomahawk posted:

I avoid all beta/early access garbage and it seems like this game has perpetually been in that state and everyone has slowly grown to hate it?
yes

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
they've been doing bullshit missions that no one cares about bc they don't understand that doing straightforward basic platformer levels where you can't build or destroy things is not what people want to do in a sandbox minecraft/terraria-like game

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh
or different enemies but they've backed themselves into a corner with the "enemies are all really samey and dull with the enemy randomization" thing lol

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

LazyMaybe
Aug 18, 2013

oouagh

deadly_pudding posted:

Is this game fun yet, or is it still a collection of really cute pixel furniture partially locked behind a series of astonishingly un-fun boss fights?
scroll up

  • Locked thread