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Pegged Lamb posted:I fixed the link. This guy was apparently incredibly methodical, so much so that I doubt he couldn't quantify what he stood to lose. He wasn't bored with his job he was daunted by the prospect of 40-50 years or ennui. Why is that irrational? Doesn't preference enter into it? He wasn't a father or custodian of a child or beholden to anyone. He simply put a bag over his head, opted not to leave a note and was done with it. You're only bored if you're boring. It's more rational to seek out an enhancement of your one and only existence than to hasten its end. At the very least develop a serious drug addiction, if you're that incredibly bored you have nothing to lose. Pegged Lamb posted:or maybe he saw sufficiently far ahead that it doesn't stay better, or it doesn't get better enough, or that consuming so much in the way of resources should merit a base level of justification that he couldn't defend or didn't want to provide. It's firstly and ultimately a personal matter and I don't like the attitude that doesn't stop at telling the suicidal they're wasting something, but goes onto pressure and shame them into enjoying what the religious deem to be a gift. Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo It's crazy sad if you reach this level of nihilism and decide to die quietly and tidily rather than do something ridiculous. At this point max out your credit cards and go on an incredible bender. It's like you have to be afraid not only of living but the chance of your life getting enjoyable to make this argument work. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 07:32 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 07:28
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^^ Well, what if you are afraid of your life getting better? What if you're so terrified that the life you live isn't real, and that if it were to get better, the good parts inevitably give way to agonizing horror, pain, isolation, and derealization, and there's nothing you can do to control it? If you're so convinced of such a concept, how could you ever forget it, even with medication and psychiatric therapy?
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Feb 1, 2015 09:44
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Popular Thug Drink posted:You're only bored if you're boring. I dunno, that kind of sounds like post-hoc rationalisation for your innate survival instinct from where I'm sitting.
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Feb 1, 2015 13:25
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Admiral Bosch posted:^^ Well, what if you are afraid of your life getting better? What if you're so terrified that the life you live isn't real, and that if it were to get better, the good parts inevitably give way to agonizing horror, pain, isolation, and derealization, and there's nothing you can do to control it? If you're so convinced of such a concept, how could you ever forget it, even with medication and psychiatric therapy? There's tons of seemingly insurmountable stuff that can be overcome with meds and therapy, that's the entire point. If it were easy we wouldn't need psychologists or psychiatrists in the first place. Also people change. When you were a teenager there were probably some ideas you had that, with the benefit of hindsight were incredibly dumb but at the time you fully believed them as fact that your faith in those ideas would never be shaken. Our minds change a lot more frequently than we think, so much so that after approximately a decade we stop recognizing our past (or even future) selves. We see them as completely different entities because the though process becomes so alien it doesn't seem like it could be the same person. That's really what people are hinging on, most people with suicidal idealization are 100% convinced it's the right thing to do, and they've thought it out, because in the moment it seems to be an insurmountable fact. However, given time most they are glad they didn't do it. The point is to get people to get past that hurdle so they can think rationally again and realize that mistake.
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Feb 1, 2015 15:11
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Admiral Bosch posted:^^ Well, what if you are afraid of your life getting better? What if you're so terrified that the life you live isn't real, and that if it were to get better, the good parts inevitably give way to agonizing horror, pain, isolation, and derealization, and there's nothing you can do to control it? If you're so convinced of such a concept, how could you ever forget it, even with medication and psychiatric therapy? Then your brain is malfunctioning on a base level and you need to see someone about getting it back to working order. What you've just described is one of the basic themes that very depressed people present as the reason they don't seek help. They are so low that they cannot conceive of life getting better, because their brain chemistry is so hosed that they cannot properly experience positive reactions to anything anymore.
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Feb 1, 2015 18:00
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OwlFancier posted:I dunno, that kind of sounds like post-hoc rationalisation for your innate survival instinct from where I'm sitting. Are you saying that our instincts are not an ingrained part of our personality? "Well, I would have sex, but it's just so terribly irrational I don't see the point" There's no rational way to decide to kill yourself in the absence of a painful, terminal illness. Or if you're trapped in a burning bus or something. Admiral Bosch posted:^^ Well, what if you are afraid of your life getting better? What if you're so terrified that the life you live isn't real, and that if it were to get better, the good parts inevitably give way to agonizing horror, pain, isolation, and derealization, and there's nothing you can do to control it? If you're so convinced of such a concept, how could you ever forget it, even with medication and psychiatric therapy? You can make yourself believe anything  Believing in some ultra nihilistic soul crushing vacuum is just as logical and valid as any other constructed worldview. I would wonder why someone chooses to adhere to a belief system that brings them nothing but pain. Chances are there's some root cause that, if treatment is attempted, might alleviate some of the fundamental reasons why someone would think that life is nothing but an endless torture parade. e: Personal anecdote - I used to have problems with suicidal ideation, feeling worthless, wishing I had never been born, wishing I would die in my sleep, that kinda stuff. Those feelings faded to a small and managable level as I got older, took better care of myself, advanced in my career, started a family, etc. If I got serious about diet & exercise and took medication they'd probably go away entirely. I remember back when I would argue with people about how suicide is the most logical action from a long term utilitarian standpoint. Turns out you can be a non-suicidal nihilist, just embrace the idea that you're so utterly pointless to Everything that it doesn't even matter if you kill yourself, then loosen up and have fun while you have fun-nerves to excite
boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 18:47
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Turns out you can be a non-suicidal nihilist, just embrace the idea that you're so utterly pointless to Everything that it doesn't even matter if you kill yourself, then loosen up and have fun while you have fun-nerves to excite Exactly. The idea doesn't have to govern your life. In fact, if it does, you've given way to the awfulness of the idea prematurely, and given it even more weight.
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Feb 1, 2015 19:30
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Man with the way some people in this thread are treating suicide you would think it is contagious.
AstheWorldWorlds fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Feb 1, 2015 |
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Feb 1, 2015 19:59
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It does seem like people are approaching this like a lolbertarian: "it doesn't matter if people are miserable as long as I've logically proved that they shouldn't be". It doesn't matter if suicide is "irrational", because all preferences are axioms in the end, rationality doesn't apply. The ONLY thing that matters is the curability of depression, not the fact that it's a mental illness.
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Feb 1, 2015 21:28
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Could some of the posters provide their definition of "rational" please. I agree that from a utilitarian viewpoint suicide is almost always immoral but utilitarianism is not burned in the fabric of the universe somewhere. Neither is self-interest or the survival instinct.
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Feb 2, 2015 00:27
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:Could some of the posters provide their definition of "rational" please. I agree that from a utilitarian viewpoint suicide is almost always immoral but utilitarianism is not burned in the fabric of the universe somewhere. Neither is self-interest or the survival instinct. Long after we're dead, it'll still be here, and will continue to exist until it is physically impossible for it to do so. The universe as a a physical entity is a perfect example of something that exists in spite of itself.
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Feb 2, 2015 01:52
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There is a branch of logic called "decision theory" that covers rational decision-making. By this system, you would not only consider your tiredness now, you would use clinical data to calculate the probability that you would not be tired of life at some point in the next half century, if undergoing treatment. If it is not likely that your state of 'boredom' will last at least 25 years, then it is irrational to eliminate the remainder of the 50 expected years of life. Also, choosing an eternity + 50 years of non-existence, for fear that an eternity is somehow not long enough(?), is an irrational choice. Just bad at math.
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Feb 2, 2015 01:53
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Phyzzle posted:Also, choosing an eternity + 50 years of non-existence, for fear that an eternity is somehow not long enough(?), is an irrational choice. Just bad at math. It would be eternity - 50 years. Those 50 extra years of oblivion are sought after. That wouldn't be an irrational choice to a person who prefers it. You're just being pedantic and overly empirical, though. You can't favorably compare 50 years of joy to 50 years of nothing, they're unlike units. Pegged Lamb fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 02:02
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Pegged Lamb posted:It would be eternity - 50 years. Those 50 extra years of oblivion are sought after. That wouldn't be an irrational choice to a person who prefers it. You're just being pedantic and overly empirical, though. You have 2 choices: 1. I can give you 1000 dollars right now, no strings attached or 2. I give you 10000 one year from now. What will you choose? If there are no extenuating or external circumstances that would make you favor one choice over another, which choice is the most rational? This is the same thing as to ask whether you want to live another decade to find happiness or kill yourself now for immediate cessation of pain. quote:You're just being pedantic and overly empirical, though. You can't favorably compare 50 years of joy to 50 years of nothing, they're unlike units. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 02:09
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Let's do an experiment. You can do this yourself. 
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Feb 2, 2015 02:13
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Pegged Lamb posted:You can do this yourself.
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Feb 2, 2015 02:22
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I was trying to be funny but apparently it didn't land. Rewards, enticement etc are irrelevant to a dead man. If you want to pull someone back from the brink use guilt or remind them of obligations e: or bargain for time. The decision to end your life is a simple one with relatively few variables, if you have to approach it like that. That's why I think there should be a strike system on how many times you can be put into medical detention and a legal means to go through with it, ala dignitas only broader. v fine, with exemptions for minors Pegged Lamb fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 02:27
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Pegged Lamb posted:That's why I think there should be a strike system on how many times you can be put into medical detention and a legal and affordable means to go through with it. Haha are you insane. "Sorry Timmy you clearly don't appreciate your life enough to have it, go ahead and kill yourself we won't stop you". Edit: To give a more constructive response, the suicidal are frequently ill. You're really just saying someone who's been to the emergency room for medical illness too many times should not be admitted because it costs too much. The suicidal shouldn't be given up on because of frequency. RagnarokAngel fucked around with this message at 02:35 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 02:31
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Pegged Lamb posted:I was trying to be funny but apparently it didn't land. Rewards, enticement etc are irrelevant to a dead man. If you want to pull someone back from the brink use guilt or remind them of obligations e: or bargain for time. The decision to end your life is a simple one with relatively few variables, if you have to approach it like that. That's why I think there should be a strike system on how many times you can be put into medical detention and a legal and affordable means to go through with it. E: Let me clarify: Much in the same way that I support allowing the use of currently illegal drugs in controlled environments with the intent of getting addicts out in the open and treating them, I can get on board with the idea of giving a right to die if you can use it as a means to stop people from hiding their feelings until they kill themselves out of the blue and to filter out those who have a temporary problem from a life-long, untreatable and existentially torturous mental illness. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 02:34
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I don't see how people killing themselves is irrational, or more irrational than other poo poo society currently practices. People used to do it all the time, historically. Pretty much every major Roman general and at least two emperors committed suicide in face of defeat or a crumbling power base. I'm sure other cultures also practiced something similar. Arguing against suicide is reactionary and socially conservative, and it can easily be traced back to the church and back to other religious movements that went on to ban things like drugs, alcohol, and whatever they feel is depriving society of its morals on that particular day.
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Feb 2, 2015 02:41
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I'm almost a trained therapist (Finishing up my M.A., just have to get licensure) and I feel like the goal is good but the method is incorrect. Psychology has a long standing issue of, on a societal level, making people afraid that seeking help is bad. It's partially western (notably American) self reliance and the history of experts judging people for their ailments. In short people being afraid to seek help is a serious problem. What people want is for the suicidal to feel like they can come out and say "I want to die" and not have to face the stigma of being locked up in an institution. That is a perfectly valid reason and we should be working towards that, but convincing people it's ok to give up and die because they're clinically depressed is not the way to do that. I get the thought process, if a step by step process was laid out then people would think on it rather than impulsively kill themselves but it has 2 problems I can forsee. 1.People who really want to die aren't going to approach it rationally. They will buy a gun and shoot their brains out, this is phenomenally easy to do in America if you really want to die. Why would someone choose to go through a step by step, months long process of speaking to a dozen psychiatrists, mental health experts, coming out to their families when they could buy a gun and end it quietly? You're not opening up any windows that don't already exist. 2.It's going to instill this idea that convincing your client to kill themselves is ok if that's what they really want. The "accepted" treatment for mental illness fluctuates with the times and what is acceptable by society, by opening up this window you're permitting mental health practitioners to abuse their authority and perhaps misuse this solution to let clients die who maybe really shouldn't. Again, I understand what people are trying to get at with this solution. They're hoping it'll allow people to be more open and maybe think more critically about suicide if the option is there but I don't see any logical reason to say that will be what actually happens. Edit: Job Truniht posted:I don't see how people killing themselves is irrational, or more irrational than other poo poo society currently practices. People used to do it all the time, historically. Pretty much every major Roman general and at least two emperors committed suicide in face of defeat or a crumbling power base. I'm sure other cultures also practiced something similar. Arguing against suicide is reactionary and socially conservative, and it can easily be traced back to the church and back to other religious movements that went on to ban things like drugs, alcohol, and whatever they feel is depriving society of its morals on that particular day. Social norms change, that doesn't make them inconsequential. In ancient Rome it used to be ok to have sex with young boys, but simultaneously not ok to be in a loving, exclusive gay relationship. Does it make these things good?
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Feb 2, 2015 02:48
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Job Truniht posted:I don't see how people killing themselves is irrational, or more irrational than other poo poo society currently practices. People used to do it all the time, historically. quote:I'm sure other cultures also practiced something similar. Arguing against suicide is reactionary and socially conservative, and it can easily be traced back to the church and back to other religious movements that went on to ban things like drugs, alcohol, and whatever they feel is depriving society of its morals on that particular day.
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Feb 2, 2015 02:50
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:People used to deem pedophilia and human sacrifice socially acceptable, how is it relevant to today? I don't think pedophilia and suicide are comparable- not even in the slightest. LookingGodIntheEye posted:Do you have evidence for this? Let's start with Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam viewing suicide as sin. It also has been legislated in repeated countries that suicide is illegal. Several states used to list suicides as felonies.
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Feb 2, 2015 02:59
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Job Truniht posted:I don't think pedophilia and suicide are comparable- not even in the slightest. A lot of religious laws come from social mores that existed long before the actual religions were founded. We didn't need a phantom in the sky to figure out killing other people is wrong, but later on we made a god to codify that which was already seen as implicit law. The fact that religions across the world with completely separate origins prohibit suicide seems to imply something universal about how we view suicide.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:02
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Just because Abrahamic faiths show a strong opposition to suicide doesn't mean it was the norm before then what the hell kind of logic is that.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:06
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Pegged Lamb posted:It would be eternity - 50 years. Those 50 extra years of oblivion are sought after. That wouldn't be an irrational choice to a person who prefers it. Yep, that's why it's bad math. There is no difference between eternity and eternity plus or minus 50 years. Pegged Lamb posted:You're just being pedantic and overly empirical, though. Hence, "rational".
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Feb 2, 2015 03:08
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RagnarokAngel posted:Just because Abrahamic faiths show a strong opposition to suicide doesn't mean it was the norm before then what the hell kind of logic is that.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:13
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Suicide is the present self killing their future self, which can be 2 entirely different people. The rights of our future selves is not a thing, Time Cop. LookingGodIntheEye posted:A lot of religious laws come from social mores that existed long before the actual religions were founded. We didn't need a phantom in the sky to figure out killing other people is wrong, but later on we made a god to codify that which was already seen as implicit law. The fact that religions across the world with completely separate origins prohibit suicide seems to imply something universal about how we view suicide. RagnarokAngel posted:Just because Abrahamic faiths show a strong opposition to suicide doesn't mean it was the norm before then what the hell kind of logic is that. Yes, the institutional that are most responsible for opposition to any form of social progress have nothing to do with regressive views about the rights of individuals they want to hold morally culpable for acting irrationally. Which is more correct: That we should respect religious institutions for maintaining social norms for thousands of years or defer rights to individuals who you want to hold responsible only when they're dying or dead? Or are you guys trying to institute thoughtcrimes for having suicidal thoughts? Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 03:14
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Job Truniht posted:The rights of our future selves is not a thing, Time Cop. quote:Yes, the institutional that are most responsible for opposition to any form of social progress have nothing to do with regressive views about the rights of individuals they want to hold morally culpable for acting irrationally. Which is more correct: That we should respect religious institutions for maintaining social norms for thousands of years or defer rights to individuals who you want to hold responsible only when they're dying or dead?
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Feb 2, 2015 03:21
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Yet you do all sorts of things everyday at the expense of your present self for your future self, no? You exercise today so you don't become a 600 pound walrus in the future, no? But why do you care about that guy? Eat all the southern-fried twinkies you want. That is only applicable to southern and bible belt states where there are swaths of poor and unemployed people who don't commit suicide, and probably should for having awful views on just about everything. Society would be better off when suicide is viewed as socially acceptable. LookingGodIntheEye posted:But you're arguing that religion is intrinsic to opposition to suicide, as if religion were not there we wouldn't care if people killed themselves. I'm saying religion inherited something that is inherently wrong from older religions, such as its views on suicide.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:24
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Job Truniht posted:That is only applicable to southern and bible belt states where there are swaths of poor and unemployed people who don't commit suicide, and probably should for having awful views on just about everything. quote:Society would be better off when suicide is viewed as socially acceptable. You're the same guy that said some people shouldn't be in relationships or reproduce, without clarifying who these kinds of people are. I'm starting to suspect there is something  about your world views.
America Inc. fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 03:30
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Was a good run man but you showed your hand. You had me going.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:31
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RagnarokAngel posted:Was a good run man but you showed your hand. You had me going. 
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Feb 2, 2015 03:38
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Well think about it. The universe began from nothing, and has began trucking on for a good 14.7 billion years now. It could end at any moment and ultimately, it wouldn't make any difference, because there is no point to the universe's existence. And yet... it continues to exist. This is poetic and all but the universe isn't a conscious entity. Also a bit of an appeal to nature. Phyzzle posted:There is a branch of logic called "decision theory" that covers rational decision-making. This is better but predicting the future so accurately isn't really an option for our hypothetical Rational Nihilist. Unless she has some special knowledge of the future the choice is between living and hoping it gets better or not on the belief that it stays the same or gets worse. There is insufficient data to make a good choice, but pessimists would lean towards the latter much like you would lean towards the former. Also we'd be getting into a murky quality-of-life measurements but I don't feel like dealing in utilons. LookingGodIntheEye posted:Let's do an experiment. quote:This is the same thing as to ask whether you want to live another decade to find happiness or kill yourself now for immediate cessation of pain. Also I would not that certain amounts of pain are intolerable and at a certain threshold suicide is preferable, as evidenced by the existence of suicides. Thanks to modern medicine, however, suicide is not the only solution to this and you can take medicine instead. I want to emphasize the importance of medicine. If this was the 1800s suicide would be a 'rational' decision for chronic depression using your betting analogy.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:45
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:This is better but predicting the future so accurately isn't really an option for our hypothetical Rational Nihilist. Unless she has some special knowledge But accurate prediction is an option. Not perfectly accurate, but accurate. That's the purpose of calculating probabilities. And there is sufficient data. There are extensive records of outcomes of treatment for people who said they were suicidal.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:55
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Phyzzle posted:But accurate prediction is an option. Not perfectly accurate, but accurate. That's the purpose of calculating probabilities. Well yes, that was the point of part II of my post on the importance of medication: Glenn Zimmerman posted:Thanks to modern medicine, however, suicide is not the only solution to this and you can take medicine instead. Also this argument seems to be related to Pegged Lamb's posts: Pegged Lamb posted:I don't buy that. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21099039 I knew someone who killed themselves because they didn't want to face the drudgery of a life's work, two people possibly. I've thought about it routinely as an alternative to loneliness (which is not a sickness.) There's nothing inherently worthwhile about living for as long as possible. We tell ourselves these fictions about how such and such person must be tormented, must have been desperate but afraid to seek help etc to reduce the dissonance we feel from being overly attached to life. Sometimes people just get bored or the rewards from going on don't compensate the troubles. Pegged Lamb posted:I fixed the link. This guy was apparently incredibly methodical, so much so that I doubt he couldn't quantify what he stood to lose. He wasn't bored with his job he was daunted by the prospect of 40-50 years or ennui. Why is that irrational? Doesn't preference enter into it? He wasn't a father or custodian of a child or beholden to anyone. He simply put a bag over his head, opted not to leave a note and was done with it. Going by his testimony I would make a statistical argument that is very likely this person would have benefited from medication or therapy. It's not impossible to be philosophically opposed to existence but it just sounds like he disliked certain aspects of his (possibly fixable!) life. This may or may not be too personal.
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Feb 2, 2015 04:13
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:Also I would not that certain amounts of pain are intolerable and at a certain threshold suicide is preferable, as evidenced by the existence of suicides. Thanks to modern medicine, however, suicide is not the only solution to this and you can take medicine instead. This assumes people have access to medication and proper healthcare in the states (they don't). LookingGodIntheEye posted:They should kill themselves for something out of their control, something that they were indoctrinated to believe? I wonder why people with nothing cling to a religion that promises justice beyond this life.... Being an rear end in a top hat is not beyond your control, but suicide should always be an option. Societies that despise suicide are the same societies that promote hierarchy. They'd rather have huge swaths of poor and unemployed that get access to milquetoast welfare programs when offering instead an easier option. LookingGodIntheEye posted:You know this because... When did anything I say become racially motivated? Fascists are against suicide of whites because they are ever eager to protect the white portion of the population. And guess what? The countries that D&D considers the most progressive in the world also have pretty tolerant views on people who commit suicide. Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 04:15
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The answer to your question is that "life ruining" is different from "life ending".
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Feb 2, 2015 04:15
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:Well yes, that was the point of part II of my post on the importance of medication: Ah, I see. And Pegged Lamb's posts are a response to an earlier statement that 'healthy people living comfortable lives without mental disorders do not decide one day that death is preferable to life'. It's not entirely clear if there are really any examples of suicidal people who would agree after a failed attempt.
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Feb 2, 2015 04:43
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Job Truniht posted:Societies that despise suicide are the same societies that promote hierarchy. They'd rather have huge swaths of poor and unemployed that get access to milquetoast welfare programs when offering instead an easier option. quote:When did anything I say become racially motivated? Fascists are against suicide of whites because they are ever eager to protect the white portion of the population.
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Feb 2, 2015 05:03
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