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I don't see how people killing themselves is irrational, or more irrational than other poo poo society currently practices. People used to do it all the time, historically. Pretty much every major Roman general and at least two emperors committed suicide in face of defeat or a crumbling power base. I'm sure other cultures also practiced something similar. Arguing against suicide is reactionary and socially conservative, and it can easily be traced back to the church and back to other religious movements that went on to ban things like drugs, alcohol, and whatever they feel is depriving society of its morals on that particular day.
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Feb 2, 2015 02:41
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:People used to deem pedophilia and human sacrifice socially acceptable, how is it relevant to today? I don't think pedophilia and suicide are comparable- not even in the slightest. LookingGodIntheEye posted:Do you have evidence for this? Let's start with Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam viewing suicide as sin. It also has been legislated in repeated countries that suicide is illegal. Several states used to list suicides as felonies.
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Feb 2, 2015 02:59
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Suicide is the present self killing their future self, which can be 2 entirely different people. The rights of our future selves is not a thing, Time Cop. LookingGodIntheEye posted:A lot of religious laws come from social mores that existed long before the actual religions were founded. We didn't need a phantom in the sky to figure out killing other people is wrong, but later on we made a god to codify that which was already seen as implicit law. The fact that religions across the world with completely separate origins prohibit suicide seems to imply something universal about how we view suicide. RagnarokAngel posted:Just because Abrahamic faiths show a strong opposition to suicide doesn't mean it was the norm before then what the hell kind of logic is that. Yes, the institutional that are most responsible for opposition to any form of social progress have nothing to do with regressive views about the rights of individuals they want to hold morally culpable for acting irrationally. Which is more correct: That we should respect religious institutions for maintaining social norms for thousands of years or defer rights to individuals who you want to hold responsible only when they're dying or dead? Or are you guys trying to institute thoughtcrimes for having suicidal thoughts? Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 03:17 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 03:14
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Yet you do all sorts of things everyday at the expense of your present self for your future self, no? You exercise today so you don't become a 600 pound walrus in the future, no? But why do you care about that guy? Eat all the southern-fried twinkies you want. That is only applicable to southern and bible belt states where there are swaths of poor and unemployed people who don't commit suicide, and probably should for having awful views on just about everything. Society would be better off when suicide is viewed as socially acceptable. LookingGodIntheEye posted:But you're arguing that religion is intrinsic to opposition to suicide, as if religion were not there we wouldn't care if people killed themselves. I'm saying religion inherited something that is inherently wrong from older religions, such as its views on suicide.
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Feb 2, 2015 03:24
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Glenn Zimmerman posted:Also I would not that certain amounts of pain are intolerable and at a certain threshold suicide is preferable, as evidenced by the existence of suicides. Thanks to modern medicine, however, suicide is not the only solution to this and you can take medicine instead. This assumes people have access to medication and proper healthcare in the states (they don't). LookingGodIntheEye posted:They should kill themselves for something out of their control, something that they were indoctrinated to believe? I wonder why people with nothing cling to a religion that promises justice beyond this life.... Being an rear end in a top hat is not beyond your control, but suicide should always be an option. Societies that despise suicide are the same societies that promote hierarchy. They'd rather have huge swaths of poor and unemployed that get access to milquetoast welfare programs when offering instead an easier option. LookingGodIntheEye posted:You know this because... When did anything I say become racially motivated? Fascists are against suicide of whites because they are ever eager to protect the white portion of the population. And guess what? The countries that D&D considers the most progressive in the world also have pretty tolerant views on people who commit suicide. Job Truniht fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Feb 2, 2015 |
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Feb 2, 2015 04:15
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about your world views.
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:You're disgusting. It's more disgusting to say people must and absolutely must live in a world that promotes inequality and where access to finite resources and finite economies is limited. LookingGodIntheEye posted:You're stating that large segments of the population should not exist by virtue of their birth. If you can't see the parallel you're blind. Quote exactly where I said that. I said by virtue of choice people should choose not to exist instead of hitting a logical wall every single time they come into any form self criticism.
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Feb 2, 2015 05:36
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:No, to say to the disenfranchised of the world, "you're hopeless, die" is one of the most thoughtless things I've ever read, and is just the thing I would imagine coming from the mouth of someone who never faced actual hardship in their life. It's strictly utopian thought to believe that a society that can elevate the masses out of poverty and hardship without concrete goals or examples while simultaneously forcing individuals into logical ends where they must endure hardship for the sake of enduring hardship. That is pure, undistilled fascist ideology. Regardless of your views on the ethics of capitalism and inequality, people should rightfully be allowed to die. I provided examples as to why anti-suicide ideology was entangled in conservative thought, I stated that being against suicide is inherently reactionary and appears to religious morals/customs, and your only counter argument to that was this: LookingGodIntheEye posted:A lot of religious laws come from social mores that existed long before the actual religions were founded. We didn't need a phantom in the sky to figure out killing other people is wrong, but later on we made a god to codify that which was already seen as implicit law. The fact that religions across the world with completely separate origins prohibit suicide seems to imply something universal about how we view suicide. This is bad and you should feel bad. It's conservative thought. It should be rejected for simply being conservative thought. There's nothing to meaningful derive from suicide other than it is a leading cause of death in United States.
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Feb 2, 2015 06:12
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SedanChair posted:Is there anything to derive from the fact that transgender people do it a lot? Or is it just OK that they "free up resources" more frequently than the rest of us? Maybe religion has a lot to do with homophobia and anti-suicide ideologies in the United States. This is a Dostoyevsky style argument where people infringe that society would degrade in pure anarchy, amoralism, and chaos if suicide, something antithetical to nearly all religions, was allowed. Does anyone here want to speak out against Norway for having legalized suicide?
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Feb 2, 2015 06:20
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Telling those born with undesirable traits to kill themselves is definitely fascist, considering the whole Holocaust thing. Maybe you were asleep when they taught that. More like climate change and famines are going to gently caress us hard in a few years, and stigmatizing suicide at that point would be a terrible idea. You continualy make this false dichotomy of "people should die" is equivalent to "people should have the right to die". Why? LookingGodIntheEye posted:People don't oppose suicide just because the spaghetti monster told them to. Even if opposing suicide is socially conservative, that does not actually make it wrong. Really, believe it. So Christianity shouldn't be held accountable for its inherent homophobia because it was practiced long before it came along? Of all things human progress, I think death is the most source of the most archaic views. People still believe that you can humanely kill someone, that there an ethical way that people should die, or that they should die at some indeterminate point in the future to natural causes as opposed to whatever brings them to it first. These are all wrong.
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Feb 2, 2015 06:29
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Let me make this simple. If you tell the poor and disenfranchised that they should kill themselves if they don't like their place, you are reaffirming the system that disenfranchised them in the first place, to a grotesque degree. If you tell gay or transgender people that killing themselves is okay as opposed to fighting back against their persecution, you entrench their persecution even further. You sound autistic. I really don't want to go down this alley since it'll just lead to misinterpretation, so I'll leave it at this: It's the opposite, because capitalist societies and global capitalism require ridiculously huge populations of poor who stay alive and stay in poverty in order to keep wages low. And people can be unhappy for a variety of other reasons. That doesn't mean they should be forced to take medicine or consult medical. Would you force anyone suffering from cancer in the United States from crippling their entire family with medical bills by compulsory medical treatment?
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Feb 2, 2015 06:42
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:Isn't climate change and famine good in your opinion then, because it maximizes the death of poor people? Kind of like a modern day black plague, shrinking the job market? I'd rather keep this on topic, but I think it'll play a long part in destroying capitalism and capitalist economies inherently dislike the idea that environmental destruction is proportional to the size and of their economies, which against their own ideological measure of progress.
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Feb 2, 2015 06:50
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