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So I've just played a small amount, but my starting 4 guys that had a terrible time and were all like 80% stress because I couldn't find the "give up" flag so I kept going went on a 4-man insane suicide 0-provision mission. And proceeded to lay waste to every enemy and clear the whole place. I promptly took all the loot and fired the lot of them. The intro and narration and atmosphere does an amazing job of blending several lovecraft stories together and adding a bit into it. I may already be partial to The Rats in the Walls, so that might be influencing me!
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Feb 5, 2015 05:14
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Wayne June also has done a bunch of HP Lovecraft works, which I found to be really excellent. You can find some of them on youtube, but the whole series is "The Dark Worlds of H.P.Lovecraft", 6 volumes. Here's the link for The Horror at Red Hook. Also the people going on about how they need to stun-delay to heal, the point the other people are making is that you shouldn't get in a position where that becomes a thing you need to do. You made some sort of mistake earlier, either with party composition or how you handled the fights, but the game doesn't require you to do that to excel.
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Feb 5, 2015 20:35
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Internet Kraken posted:And I think these people have a really distorted view of this game based on how much easier it gets later on. When you're just starting out, its very easy for the RNG to go crazy and get into a really bad situation. You have less control over fights due to poor party comp, no upgrade, etc. This also the only point in the game where you can really lock yourself into a failure state since you need money to do dungeons but lose money if you back out. Basically, the player has no way to deal with someone getting blown down to critical HP through bad luck in a short mission early on. Can't heal outside of combat, can't camp because its too small, can't back out because your budget is too tight. They might have a distorted view, but I'm pretty sure I don't. I haven't even gotten a guy to rank2 yet, so I'm still no where near late game stuff. I have run into some fights that really creamed my party compared to others (goddamn bandits), but if you take the advice of leveling your stagecoach first, and don't waste money on curing people for a while, and take Heironymous's provisioning guide, I really don't see how you can get into a failure state. I mean, my like 3rd week I sent off all my super high stress guys on a suicide run because my recruits were crap and I wanted a healer before really trying, and despite rolling no torches and 100 stress I actually cleared the dungeon. I've had to pull out of dungeons early because of a rough fight, and still came out a little positive on cash, plus the heirloom stuff.
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Feb 5, 2015 22:37
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I've got several pretty different parties, mostly since I'm still investing mainly in my town and experimenting with different setups. My one that ran vestal+occultist was actually pretty good, if I needed spread healing I'd use vestal, if I needed single target guy I'd use occultist, and both have some stun/moving/debuff/damage options to focus on if I don't really need healing.
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Feb 6, 2015 19:46
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Maybe something to put into the OP there, but this is a game where being unprepared is really dangerous. If you don't know how a boss is, or what the dungeon enemies are like, you really should consider pulling some fresh meat off the wagon and sending them in to scrape out whatever loot they can while you learn these things. Once you know how it is, you can setup your good guys to go in and actually win the day.
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Feb 7, 2015 02:24
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I think they should remove chance to lose items when doing stress relief stuff. Having a gameplay element be "remember to remove trinkets before drinking" is dumb. So far that has been the only thing that has really felt like a wrong move in the dev choices in the game.
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Feb 7, 2015 06:16
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Well that is pretty stupid still. I'd want to keep some poo poo trinkets around just to send with the fucker going off to drink just in case he is gonna lose poo poo.
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Feb 7, 2015 06:49
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Plague doctor can be ok-ish for certain goals, mostly if you're trying to stack the gently caress out of some +dmg, and need some removals on your guys. Her camp options are a lot of healing and stuff, so perhaps an option could be explored to run no healer, using removal to keep dot damage low and the buff to up your damage guys otherwise. It would probably only work in some of the dungeons, but already some strategy only works in some of them. For instance, don't try a stun comp in the swine place, they're way resistant to that poo poo.
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Feb 7, 2015 23:08
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Retreating from a surprise attack really depends mostly on your group comp. If you have a leper and he gets shuffled off the front two rows, you should probably retreat and re-do. If you have a bunch of mobile guys that can still fight from the new positions, it is pretty possible to roll with the surprise attack. So I guess like most of the game, it depends on how your party is set up!
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Feb 8, 2015 03:38
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I don't think I've taken more than 3 attempts to retreat so far, which is less than 1 full turn. It would usually take longer than that to really re-position my guys to be effective, and if you've got a high speed guy, especially with a +first turn speed trinket, you can often retreat before anything actually happens.
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Feb 8, 2015 04:37
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Personally trinkets feel like they're only gotten like one pass on them at most after the initial production. That feels like the one area that really isn't as polished as the rest. Having upsides+downsides is nice, especially if you can use them to boost your party in certain ways. For example, giving the leper the +move resists/prot and -speed/dodge is pretty great, because prot is amazing in general and being moved is really harsh for him. You have to basically say that he isn't going to dodge or move first, but that is workable. That hellion trinket is basically "always use two of me", so really needs to be changed haha. Then you'll get stuff that is only positive effects but effect a minimal amount of a characters skill set, like the grave digger one, which feel ok to me because even with no negatives they're not super useful.
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Feb 8, 2015 17:52
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Well, I just opened a pack with my grave robber, who has a +20% scouting chance trinket, and found a dungeon map. That proceeded to scout the ENTIRE dungeon (medium sized). 
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Feb 8, 2015 19:04
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Well, stress tends to be more dangerous than hit point damage unless you're always critting everywhere. There is a reason that the method of killing targets the back row, and the back row tends to be the stress causing enemies. I did find a bug though! When someone has a thing trigger that makes them open something, you can select someone else and the person you selected will be the one to actually open it.
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Feb 8, 2015 20:30
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Normal Adult Human posted:Dungeon maps only reveal one kind of doodad generally. I know, which is why I commented on it. I was in the very first hallway and it showed the entire dungeon: halls, rooms, ineractables, enemies.
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Feb 8, 2015 21:04
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Personally I've been finding that knowing more about the enemies in each area really helps you plan what guys you bring. If you're smart and a little lucky, you can chain no light newbies in level 1 shorts, giving them basically food+shovel+area supply items. I had one group that basically had to have 1 guy replaced each run for about 4 in a row, though at the end of that one they were all gibbering insane so I gave them the boot. Low light short missions can pretty easily fill up your inventory on loot as well, so you can make some pretty easy bank for very minimal investment. Even when things have gone pear shaped and I've had to run away, still came out decently ahead. E: Once your town is more upgraded, it is a lot cheaper to outfit guys. I'd personally only do skills until you've got a big bank/upgraded town, because you're really a venture capitalist. Least in for most out, at least until you get to the point where you can realistically sustain the treatment for an advanced party. ZypherIM fucked around with this message at 06:45 on Feb 9, 2015 |
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Feb 9, 2015 06:43
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Skills are super important. At base it lets you play your party the way you want to, but in general you get +5 acc, +1 crit for any skill upgrade, and some like the healing skills get a significant improvement. The jester party buff gets a speed upgrade at the first level upgrade making it amazing as well. Spending the cash to upgrade your main single target damage ability 1 rank on each guy, and your heal on your healers, will have pretty big payoffs. After that, I would suggest not spending money until you've found a comp of guys you like and want to develop farther. Then make sure you can go whole hog and get them weapon+armor+skill upgrades and have the cash around to heal up bad stuff if needed. Investing halfway and then having poo poo go south probably means that you end up having it be cheaper to kick them out and get a new one, which is frustrating.
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Feb 9, 2015 16:34
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Running With Spoons posted:Is to-hit chance simply (acc-dodge)/100? Well no one is perfectly sure what the formula is, or what exactly is going on with it. I know I've seen a multi-hit swing miss the guy with the *lower* dodge and hit the guy with the higher, so I think it might be more complicated than that. Even so, I'd still take the accuracy option even if it is giving less damage. Just like the comparison between vestral heal and occultist heal, in rogue-likes the more consistent option is almost always stronger. I've found that in general, I'm not needing bigger hits, I'm just needing more hits connecting. Especially because such a big factor in fights is either having a disable/move ability hit, or just getting enemies out of the fight faster.
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Feb 9, 2015 18:12
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I find buffs are good for any fight where I know I'm not going to be killing poo poo this turn. So pretty much boss fights. Anything else you're better off just bursting down as many targets as possible with all your guys. Don't worry about trying to heal if there are 2+ enemies still up unless you super need it, because chances are that guy you don't kill is going to do that much damage at least on his next turn.
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Feb 9, 2015 22:11
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I was going to say some stuff about occultist heal not being that annoying, then remembered I have the trinket that gives +resist chance for -skill chance, which makes his heal instantly way better. If I find another one I'll be sitting pretty, I like it. The reason I like him more than a vestral is mainly because of better offensive/camp options and high crit chance. Basically has some solid back row attacks, and I can throw in a debuff/mark/stab depending on the dungeon and party make-up.
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Feb 10, 2015 04:54
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Yea I can understand them wanting to have some potential negatives to stress relief activities, but losing trinkets is worse than basically anything else by far. An extra 1k gold, or a couple weeks without 1 guy? Not a big deal really. It is pretty easy to be sitting on way more gold and guys than you need, but a specific trinket is way more rare than those other things. Is the bar the only one that loses trinkets? I'll probably just never use it, it isn't even that much cheaper than the other options.
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Feb 10, 2015 16:13
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Fhqwhgads posted:Running around trying level 0 no light runs, I've discovered Hellions and YAWP. Is it really as awesome as I think it is? Keeping the front two enemies Stunlocked is a godsend for healing up the party and just general survivability. My suicide squad of Vestal>PlagueDoc>Hellion>Hellion kept the enemies completely locked down (Stun Grenades + YAWP) and they've been surviving better than I thought they would, minus a few afflictions. Wrote up a bunch of stuff, but I'm going to rephrase it all! Low light runs are all about blowing up the other side super fast with crits, while trying to give them the least number of attacks possible. So any turn you're not attacking with a big damage ability needs to have a really good reason not to. If you're set on that party, look at trying to kill their 3rd+4th row guys in the first turn, all your party can attack their back. Noxious blast, if it bleeds, iron swan, and judgement all target one of the two back slots. Spend the second turn mopping up slot 2+3, then toss a heal when you're down to 1 enemy, but don't play the waiting game to try to stun him, just murder his face off as your hellions come up. I think multi-attacks and heals are the biggest two traps for new players. Especially early on, it is better to let your guys not sit at 100% health, and its better to do less damage overall but completely kill an enemy. Not to say that both aren't good, but they tend to get used at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons a lot. Your healer should have some sort of attack/disable/move ability that is way better to use in round 1 and/or 2, because it'll prevent way more stress/damage than the heal is able to heal. Multi-attacks shine when you've got a pile of crit and damage, or can reliably finish off a wounded monster. I've found that bounty hunter is my favorite guy for the 3-bandit fights. Throw him some +spd poo poo(mine has quickdraw), and his first turn flashbang the ranged bandit. If you're really lucky, he gets pushed to the front and stunned, but as long as he switches places with the other small guy you're good. The dagger bandit can't attack from rank4, so he will auto-pass, if the ranged guy is in front all he has is a weak single target attack. Fight goes from making GBS threads damage all over you to being not a problem at all.
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Feb 10, 2015 19:24
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The main bulwark of my ruins party are 2 crusaders with some +prot trinkets in the first two slots. One of them happens to have a -speed trait, and that combined with a little trinket setup on my part tends to ensure that one of them always goes before the other. They both have holy lance, which means that in general they'll kill both 3+4 slot in the first round, or at least one of them. My vestral spends almost all her time just casting judgement on poo poo, and the last slot can be whatever you like. E:Just had a thought, how impactful would some trinkets for someone like plague doc be if the +blight chance one also had a +1 dmg/round thing as well? With some trinkets setup like that for various classes it would give you more ways to setup builds for your guys. Also, dark bracers for a dark party are super OP. ZypherIM fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 10, 2015 |
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Feb 10, 2015 20:37
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I'm hoping/thinking that the darkest dungeon will have to be approached different from the other ones. Like stress/bleed/blight effects all over the place, forcing you to spend more on supplies to get your guys farther, a pure -money wing that is also really dangerous. As it is, I haven't finished beating all the level 5 boss sections yet, but I've got 3 main teams, at 3/4/5, who all tend to romp through their dungeons with maybe 1-2 guys even needing a stress reliever break, or if I roll bad quirks at the end I ship them off for a week to watch some powerpoints on why necrophilia is bad. I'm also sitting at like 150k now, mostly because a successful dungeon really poops out the gold, and as your town gets upgraded you spend less gold each week fixing your guys, and less to upgrade them. Maybe they just need to rework town upgrades and remove all the -cost bits and put something in their place, like temporary bonuses for the next dungeon run for stress reliever upgrades.
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Feb 10, 2015 23:10
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Oh yea, stuff can change a lot over early access. I'm just taking stock of where I've progressed to, and what the state my estate is in. I'm basically at a point where unless I just start ignoring the mechanics completely I'm not risking much, and tend to gain a bunch every mission. So I think if the end-game setup is a hard, risky dungeon where you'll likely lose parties or have them retreat, gibbering and insane, and then go train up a fresh crew in the side dungeons then this game'll be in a great spot. Also something to do with heirlooms after you finish upgrading the buildings.
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Feb 10, 2015 23:42
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If you get surprised, the enemy doesn't get a free round, it just shuffles your party order. I'm becoming a fan of +prot items, they can be really effective. I've been thinking about trying to work up a party designed for low light medium runs, basically camp in the first room for buffs and just roll until you maximize whatever you're in the dungeon for, whether it is gold or shields or busts or whatever. I think the basic 3 bandit encounter is perfect for teaching how useful pulls/swaps are, just it isn't readily apparent that the dagger guy can't attack from position 4 and the rifle guy's attack from position 1 is super crappy.
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Feb 11, 2015 04:15
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To be fair, the retreat option is hard to see if you don't know where to look already, and the in-battle retreat option is only visible if you have the right window selected. Really needs to change, and be like top left, and larger.
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Feb 11, 2015 06:51
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The only problem with 3 crusaders is when you get down to just the front guys you can't holy lance them, so the guy in the 3 slot is dead space at that point. Something like a lunge/pick/fade grave robber works well with that plan though, or a highwayman/bounty.
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Feb 11, 2015 08:24
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Breakthrough is probably nerfed too much with exhaustion, it sort of feels like they wanted to nerf it but liked the idea behind it overall, so just tossed exhaustion on it. However, hellion still has a strong skill set, just not as flexible with attacking from the back rows. You can run 2 of them pretty easily without stepping on the other's toes, which I think is just fine. I kind of feel like being able to run 3 or 4 of the same class makes me think that class is too flexible, or has abilities that work together a bit too well. There isn't something wrong with it inherently, but personally I feel that it is something that should be more along the lines of "I've got these trinkets setup to enable my 3 hellion team to work" rather than "I've got an attack usable from any position that hits their front 3 for 50%". All that said, I'm actually going to have to start a new game to check out plague doctor changes haha.
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Feb 11, 2015 21:27
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All damage teams are great for medium length, but not so they can heal at camp. Make sure you have 12 points worth of camp buffs, camp in the first room, and run the dungeon like that.
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Feb 11, 2015 22:55
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Jester is awesome, solo is maybe his worst skill, and dirk is only good if you build your party around attacks that move your guys around.
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Feb 12, 2015 04:17
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The jester party buff stacks on itself, and after the first level grants speed as well as accuracy and crit. His stress heal is a 60 or 70% chance per person. If you want a super simple way to use him, give him some +spd -acc trinkets to make sure he goes first. Run away if you need to, otherwise buff the party. Round two, did you murder almost their whole team last round? If so, use stress relief, otherwise buff again. Round three, did you murder almost their whole team last round? If so, use stress relief, otherwise buff again. So I restarted to mess with plague doctors, since my main game I don't have room to start a full party to be able to field a plague doctor. I got some of the worst rng luck I've had in the game, things like having to explore every room for my 100% room battles and having tons of fights, to having 3 walls spawn on a small ruins, to runs with constant bandits critting out the rear end. I think I've only managed to actually finish like 3 quests, it has been really crazy. Here is my week12 team fresh off the wagon, in the last room in this short 100% room battle mission (I didn't take a picture of the previous fight right outside, where I ran into the 3 bandits and got a surprise round and murdered their face off):  It was really, really stressful, and getting the positive resolve was amazing, because he buffed the party with +15% damage. The 1hp heal actually came into play to pull a guy off death's door to remove that debuff. I'm at week 13, I have 50k gold and have gathered around 40 or so busts and deeds  If I had better luck with dungeon layout/enemy spawns, I would have been on to normal parties way sooner than this and I probably already could have even with my complete poo poo luck on this estate so far. I guess what I'm saying is don't start over, you can send lemmings in with 4 food and a shovel and get great returns (I actually also usually put 1-2 supply items based on where I'm going as well, but that's a little more advanced). I have accidentally thrown away about 3 trinkets I wanted to keep though, because I'm terrible at this trinket UI.
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Feb 12, 2015 05:05
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Camping first relies on you have a party that is able to take care of itself for the rest of the medium dungeon, or at least half of the long dungeon. You also need to have party skills with strong self buffs, some compositions don't really have great buff options, and those are much more suited for a mid-dungeon heal/de-stress session. Then like some people have said, you're giving up that safety net, because as long as you brought enough food that camp is a 25% heal 10 stress clicky for your whole party at minimum. On another note, I think they need to make quest items stack, because the worst quests are the "collect 3 of these", and the "use 3 of these" aren't much better if it takes you too long to find any quest spots. That is a lot of loot you can miss out on, though I haven't directly compared quest rewards so maybe it makes up for it there?
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Feb 12, 2015 18:50
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Internet Kraken posted:I think if low light runs actually end up being easier due to the number of crits you get they need to rebalance that aspect of the game. The part that is missing out of most of the people talking about this is that by the time you're doing a low light run like this, you're better at the game and often have built your party around it. There are definite risks in a low light run that you have to mitigate, its just that stress (from exploring at low light) isn't that big of a deal because of the crit bonus. Without the crit bonus, you probably wouldn't be able to do low light runs at all, which just removes an interesting facet to the game.
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Feb 13, 2015 00:05
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You don't want to provision too robustly, you can easily run out of room, or not use up the items. In general, you want at least 1 extra shovel in the weald because it spawns more walls (the minimap icon looks like a book to me, but I think it is supposed to be a wall), less torches for the ruins, less food for the warrens, and then for each area I have a sort of 'set' of things I'll bring. Ruins is holy water(urns,alters,etc) and herbs(alchemy table,iron maiden) and key(usual boxes+locked display cabinets); weald is bandages(corpse, spider webs) and herbs(carcasses) and antivenom(old tree); warrens is bandages(knife boards) and holy water(alter, bones, occult markings) and herbs(dinner table/cart, moonshine barrel). The extra shovel in the weald you can also use to go grave digging. Looking at the list again, the safe bets if you don't know what to really bring are shovels and herbs, if you're inside holy water, and if not the ruins some bandages. Antivenom only comes up in the weald, and even then it is only 1 thing so often I don't even bring it there.
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Feb 13, 2015 19:06
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I'd stay away from trying to figure out solutions to a problem that may not even exist. Until we find out how exactly the darkest dungeon is working trying to suggest sweeping changes is just dumb. Yes, you can say that as you level your town and guys that you start to not risk so much and can easily recover from mistakes, but if the darkest dungeon is eating 4 level 6 heroes every time you try it, now you kind of need the rest of the stuff to not be dick crushingly hard as you're gonna invest a good amount of bank into a new set of guys. As some of the people have said, any 'solution' needs to be something that doesn't just hurt new players or those down on their luck, but something that actually makes it harder. Also, that last page made me think I was back over in the starbound thread.
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Feb 14, 2015 01:37
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Anatharon posted:There's no real penalty for losing an entire team of dudes, so no real need to use it. The penalty for losing an entire team of dudes is anything in your inventory, any trinkets they have equipped, and the time and money you have invested into them. Even if you're using a group fresh off the wagon, why would you not use the option to get whatever haul they've managed to fetch so far instead of saying "yea I'm going to throw away any progress I've made from running this dungeon"? Out of curiosity, how many of you complaining that the game is too super easy have run level 5 dungeons since the patch, and how many of you do low light runs?
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Feb 14, 2015 21:07
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Surprise rounds for the player are really, really powerful. As long as you don't get some really bad rng, it is usually a free combat straight up. They shouldn't occur more than they currently do unless you're giving something up to get them in my opinion. As some other people have said, low light doesn't give *that* much increased crit chance, it mostly just makes up for the extra stress generated from the low light exploring. I think people think the effect is bigger, since the loot bonus is pretty big. Low light basically works out to the enemy having a better surprise chance, damage, and accuracy in exchange for you getting better loot. If you're playing well, you can handle getting surprised and are eliminating the high damage/stress threat quickly already. It basically punishes bad play even more than the game does normally, and makes it harder to recover if things go bad. I think this illustrates why the game can be hard and easy at the same time, just like a lot of roguelikes. Once you learn the game, and how to approach various situations, you are actually pretty safe most of the time. In something like crawl, once you get past the early game (or even through the whole game once you're good at the game) as long as you play smart and careful you can almost always beat the game. In darkest dungeon, as long as you set your party up somewhat smartly and play carefully, you can usually beat a given dungeon. A lot of the suggestions I've seen people talk about in the thread are bad because they really only make the game more punishing for new/bad/unlucky players, and honestly the game is hard enough for them already. I still think that we should wait until we get the darkest dungeon before trying to "fix" the difficulty, because depending on how that runs having the balance be where it is at might be needed. That said, here are a couple examples that I think would increase difficulty but not for the new player, without changing how stuff fundamentally works. In the higher dungeons increase the length of hallways. If a level 3 dungeon had hallways of length 5 sometimes, and a level 5 always length 5, that increases the difficulty by a decent amount without changing how any of the working parts function by making you cover more ground (more chances for bad stuff to happen) to finish any given quest. For low light, increase the chance for the more difficult enemy layouts the darker it gets, once you're at 0 light it is just the really dangerous ones all the time. Two things I think they should look into is something to do with heirlooms when you're finishing your building upgrades, and to look into removing the cost reduction upgrades and turning them into something else. For the fans of more customization, it would be pretty neat if there were different upgrade paths you could use on buildings, and let people reset the building if they want (don't keep levels to give a place to sink more heirlooms). Could be anything from the blacksmith letting you improve 1 stat on armor more than base (upgrade branching being different things, like dodge or hp or resists), to the guild letting you upgrade one aspect of a skill to being able to rig the gambling hall so it costs less but recovers less stress(you're fleecing the hero).
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Feb 17, 2015 01:09
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For upgrading, I'd suggest that after a couple stagecoach upgrades so you're getting 5 or so guys a week and have 9-11 slots, upgrade the guild and blacksmith so your rank1 guys can learn the 2nd level of their skills. There is a pretty big increase in effectiveness, and around that point you might have guys you want to keep around. I personally like to upgrade a church place for sanity stuff, and only use the sanitarium for really debilitating stuff early on. No need to rush a bunch into guild/smith, just unlock the next level when your A team is about to hit their next level, focus otherwise on the rest of your town.
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Feb 17, 2015 05:07
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Once you get some levels he gets a lot better. Hits like a truck, has some really nice class relics, pretty good camp skills. Lacking a stun or bleed isn't a big deal, he can hit the front 2 spots like a mac truck and like you've noticed he can really take the punishment. He is pretty crap in short dungeons and low light runs, but a medium or long with an early camp to stack up some ACC buffs and stuff, and he'll soldier through like a champ. He is also a great inclusion for hunting the swine boss or the necromancer, and limited use against the hag (pot fodder, or getting your good hitters out of the pot fast). Revenge gets really good as you upgrade it, increases both the dmg and crit bonus, while reducing the accuracy penalty. Consider taking uppercut, as it has a base accuracy of 80, and still hits pretty hard. If the fight is going to be short, I usually have him focus on using uppercut on the #2 spot, to help shuffle the enemy to the front while still doing good damage. If it is going to clearly be a longer fight, I'll start with the accuracy buff unless I really want to push the #2 spot back, in which case I'll do accuracy on round 2. Consider putting at least 1 pair of the +prot +move resist boots on him, they're super good. Actually in general, they're a really good trinket (more for the prot than the move resist). I think he is potentially a really bad early hero, and level 1 probably makes the biggest impact on how good he feels compared to any other class. While he lacks a nice movement skill, the rest of his kit is all good, if a bit situational. Unlike most of the other classes, he doesn't have a skill that I would never use. Some of the other classes have skills that I pretty much never train, or only come up in some weird party setup. Leper you can pretty easily make a case for wanting them all trained, and swapping during the dungeon based on how it is going.
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Feb 17, 2015 07:42
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| # ¿ Jun 2, 2024 13:48 |
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Internet Kraken posted:On the other hand the hardest boss is the Hag, and the Leper is useless against her aside from being shoved into the pot. None of the bosses are really hard per say, but they do require you to figure them out. That said it is the weakest fight for the leper, but buffed up he can pretty much crush the pot if one of your damage dealers gets sucked up which can work out fairly well.
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Feb 17, 2015 09:25
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