|
football fuckerman posted:Weeden was definitely a reach. Quinn was not. I remember the lead-up to the draft, I'd never heard "pro-ready" more often about any other prospect. It pains me to defend Brady Quinn, but he never really had much of a shot with the Browns under Mangini. I'm not sure if it ruined him, or if he was just crap regardless, but Mangini yanked him in and out of the lineup instead of just letting him learn from his mistakes. Anyway just look at these great choices! 2014 - Manziel, 1st round (22nd pick) 2012 - Weeden, 1st round (22nd pick) 2010 - McCoy, 3rd round 2007 - Quinn, 1st round (22nd pick) 2005 - Frye, 3rd round 2004 - McCown, 4th round 2000 - Wynn, 6th round 1999 - Couch, 1st (1st overall) The only guy on that list that isn't a reach is arguably Quinn. And Couch, who's ruination is Cleveland's own fault.
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:07
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 09:42 |
|
|
football fuckerman posted:Weeden was definitely a reach. Quinn was not. I remember the lead-up to the draft, I'd never heard "pro-ready" more often about any other prospect. I would also look at coaching and offensive tools at the college level too Weeden stands out as a guy who very much excelled because of being held up in college
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:08
|
|
|
i think whether Quinn concealed his flaws, or the Browns screwed him up, either way he wasn't a reach at that point in the draft.Mel Mudkiper posted:I would also look at coaching and offensive tools at the college level too yeah it's hard, i don't mean to treat all QB prospects the same or anything. I just wonder how the hell a team like the Browns can pull together the three or four necessary elements: - Good coaches - Franchise QB - Good supporting cast - Smart front office It seems like they get one or two, then the one or two want to get the gently caress out before they get the other parts. They haven't had the QB since maybe Tim Couch, though, so that's why I and so many other fans are saying that's the only thing that matters
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:13
|
|
|
Metapod posted:You realize that last year was the first season in a long time where the titans were terrible? They went 7-9 and 6-10 in their prior two seasons and play in one of the weaker divisions in football. If it's not "terrible", it's at least "pretty bad."
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:15
|
|
|
football fuckerman posted:It seems like they get one or two, then the one or two want to get the gently caress out before they get the other parts. They haven't had the QB since maybe Tim Couch, though, so that's why I and so many other fans are saying that's the only thing that matters I think Cleveland uses "good QB" as a panacea for their many problems though. Arguably Cleveland would have been a lot better having built a team by taking the best picks available to them instead of constantly trying to find "the" quarterback. If (Palmer era)Arizona, Seattle, and other teams prove anything, its that you can be surprisingly effective with an ok QB and a strong team around him. Given how absolutely gutted the Browns offense is at this point, you could draft JoeDan Unitas-Brady and he would not make anything happen next season.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:20
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I think Cleveland uses "good QB" as a panacea for their many problems though. Arguably Cleveland would have been a lot better having built a team by taking the best picks available to them instead of constantly trying to find "the" quarterback. The counterpoint is that an amazing QB - like Andrew Luck, and Manning before him - can cover up many front office sins. But the Browns are never going to find an amazing QB at pick #22. VVV You can't really just handwave away losses because the quarterback threw interceptions.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
Burger Trench posted:They went 7-9 and 6-10 in their prior two seasons and play in one of the weaker divisions in football. If it's not "terrible", it's at least "pretty bad." They went 7-9 that one season because they lost a lot of close games due to Fitzpatrick throwing an interception in every 2 minute drill situation like it was clockwork
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:22
|
|
|
NC-17 posted:The counterpoint is that an amazing QB - like Andrew Luck, and Manning before him - can cover up many front office sins. Frankly I think a competent team with an ok QB is a much more feasible goal than lucking out on a top-tier rookie QB. I mean, in the past fifteen years, how many teams were successful with mid-tier qbs and good support vs. mediocre teams with excellent qbs? Plus, if you luck out and somehow manage to get an amazing QB WITH a good team you get the Patriots/80s Niners.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:30
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I think Cleveland uses "good QB" as a panacea for their many problems though. Arguably Cleveland would have been a lot better having built a team by taking the best picks available to them instead of constantly trying to find "the" quarterback. The Browns offense hasn't really been gutted until Josh Gordon hosed up repeatedly and Jordan Cameron was injured this past year. Yeah it's not a good look starting Miles Austin and Taylor Gabriel, but in 2013 they had 4 offensive Pro Bowlers, and before you say anything all four deserved it: Gordon, Cameron, Mack and Thomas. It's not amazing, but it's workable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:36
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:mid-tier qbs and good support vs. mediocre teams with excellent qbs? One of these just beat the other in the Super Bowl, a year after the roles were reversed. it's not that simple, really
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:37
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I think Cleveland uses "good QB" as a panacea for their many problems though. Arguably Cleveland would have been a lot better having built a team by taking the best picks available to them instead of constantly trying to find "the" quarterback. The assumption would also be that having a good QB would allow for better coaching and potentially better free agents to come through Berea than in years past. Do you think Chip Kelly is yanking us around like a dick if we had someone competent under center with an under achieving team? Do you think Free Agents are by passing the chance to play with an up and coming QB? They need to take care of this. Once it has been taken care of? We can start talking about defensive players to draft, wide recievers, and such. Until then? We're just waiting around limp dick at 5-11 for all of eternity.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:46
|
|
|
FuzzySkinner posted:The assumption would also be that having a good QB would allow for better coaching and potentially better free agents to come through Berea than in years past. This strikes me as a very much chicken and egg situation. football fuckerman posted:One of these just beat the other in the Super Bowl, a year after the roles were reversed. it's not that simple, really I don't think its realistic at all to call the 13 Broncos or 14 Patriots an ok team with a great QB. You put Brady on last year's Browns and have them play Manziel on last year's Patriots and my money would still be on New England.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:53
|
|
|
I understand both sides of it. I see what ol Mel is saying, the Browns have been too desperate to get the QB and they've passed up good prospects in the process (Dee Ford, Kelvin Benjamin, Dominique Easley, and DeMarcus Lawrence were taken after Manziel). But I also believe the Browns' biggest need over the past decade has been a competent QB, they should try repeatedly to get one, and they can't get good without one. I don't think he has to be the football LeBron, I just think he has to be good, very good or great. Where those two things intersect is, the front office really thought that Johnny Manziel would be good, very good or great, and he has not been, and doesn't seem likely to be. Same with Weeden, different FO though. So what we need is like...good scouting, on a prospect we can actually acquire. This is apparently extremely elusive
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:54
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I don't think its realistic at all to call the 13 Broncos or 14 Patriots an ok team with a great QB. You put Brady on last year's Browns and have them play Manziel on last year's Patriots and my money would still be on New England. You seriously can't believe that the Browns, who had the league leader in interceptions last year until he got hurt, wouldn't force Manziel into three and outs and turnovers all day.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:56
|
|
|
football fuckerman posted:. So what we need is like...good scouting, on a prospect we can actually acquire. This is apparently extremely elusive Yeah, this is the ticket I think. They could arguably find a decent QB with good scouting outside of the first round and not blow their load on whoever they can justify at first. football fuckerman posted:I wouldn't ask you for your money until Manziel's ninth or tenth fumble Its weird to put out rules for a pure hypothetical but I would be working on the assumption that Manziel would have the benefit of the coaching and front office of the Pats and vice-versa. Which is kinda what I meant. The inherent support structure and philosophy of the Patriots office I think could do more for a bad QB than a good QB could do for a dysfunctional coaching staff and management like the Browns had last season. Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 18:57
|
|
|
Well, the Browns had a lot of trouble defending the run last year, so Belichick would probably glower at Manziel then hand the ball off 50 times after the first insanely lovely interception. But yeah, I do think the Browns problem is more due to sheer turnover then anything else except maybe finding a QB. They've been looking for the QB, but then the coach gets loving fired after 2 years, and there's absolutely no stability to build into anything. They're on their 5th OC in the last 6 years, and everyone expects Pettine to be fired if the Browns suck this year. Maybe all their head coaches have been this bad, but blowing it up again just leaves any good coaching candidate looking for a better job. But then again, if the coach is just bad you're just sucking anyway if you stick with them... it's a frustrating problem.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 19:18
|
|
|
NC-17 posted:It pains me to defend Brady Quinn, but he never really had much of a shot with the Browns under Mangini. I'm not sure if it ruined him, or if he was just crap regardless, but Mangini yanked him in and out of the lineup instead of just letting him learn from his mistakes. Quinn was drafted to play by Romeo and was basically done by the time mangini showed up
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 19:25
|
|
|
Kalli posted:Well, the Browns had a lot of trouble defending the run last year, so Belichick would probably glower at Manziel then hand the ball off 50 times after the first insanely lovely interception. They should just rename the team the Cleveland Catch-22's.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 19:34
|
|
|
The longer its been since the Browns have been successful the more desperate they are to be successful right away. It means they take radical steps for a quick fix that just make things worse. Think about an E/N poster who is 20 and has never even kissed a girl and is so desperate to get some action he starts following PUA tactics and talking about betas and poo poo. That's the Browns right now What I am saying is the Browns just need to give in and gently caress a fat chick. EDIT: I think I lost control of the metaphor by the end there EDIT 2: Perfect spherical breasts Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Apr 9, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:19
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:The longer its been since the Browns have been successful the more desperate they are to be successful right away. It means they take radical steps for a quick fix that just make things worse. The Browns should sign Jared Lorenzen?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:29
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:The longer its been since the Browns have been successful the more desperate they are to be successful right away. It means they take radical steps for a quick fix that just make things worse. I'm dying laughing because I was going to quote you with perfectly spherical breasts stuff and then you edited your post
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:30
|
|
|
Ehud posted:I'm dying laughing because I was going to quote you with perfectly spherical breasts stuff and then you edited your post perfect spherical breasts will probably be the funniest thing I ever read on TFF
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:34
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:The longer its been since the Browns have been successful the more desperate they are to be successful right away. It means they take radical steps for a quick fix that just make things worse. If you neg Bradford he will try twice as hard to score for you.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:37
|
|
|
Chilichimp posted:The Browns should sign Jared Lorenzen? https://vine.co/v/OlpdKUiz5VO Why can't you embed vines?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:41
|
|
|
hobbesmaster posted:https://vine.co/v/OlpdKUiz5VO smh Jared you don't need to wear a shirt we all think you're beautiful
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:45
|
|
|
It really is a Catch-22. It's tough because obviously you need to dump bad coaches and bad players. When commentators just say "they need some stability" it's just really dumb and unhelpful. Did keeping Dick Jauron for 4 years help the Bears or the Bills? Should they have kept him for 7 or 8 years just to really soak in that 7-9 feeling?
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:50
|
|
|
football fuckerman posted:It really is a Catch-22. It's tough because obviously you need to dump bad coaches and bad players. When commentators just say "they need some stability" it's just really dumb and unhelpful. Did keeping Dick Jauron for 4 years help the Bears or the Bills? Should they have kept him for 7 or 8 years just to really soak in that 7-9 feeling? I would say don't dump the bad coach until you know there is a better coach you can get. Right now they keep shuffling the deck but all the cards are "how to play rummy"
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:55
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:The longer its been since the Browns have been successful the more desperate they are to be successful right away. It means they take radical steps for a quick fix that just make things worse. Problem is loving a fat chick won't solve the issue. They want the attractive woman and part of it is set but it is more about validation. What I'm saying is we are the fat chick and the Browns are riding us and we have to get them the beautiful QB princess so they can finally be satisfied.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 20:59
|
|
|
Mel Mudkiper posted:I would say don't dump the bad coach until you know there is a better coach you can get. believe it or not, Bill Cowher doesn't want to leave the CBS desk to coach the Browns. The Browns are gonna land a good coach like the Harbaughs, a guy out of college or the coordinator ranks with no HC experience. They're not going to get someone who is obviously already a great coach, because that guy doesn't want to leave New England, CBS or NBC to coach a lovely team. So they're left replacing relatively faceless coordinator with relatively faceless coordinator, which is what they have to do until one of them turns out to be a Harbaugh rather than a Crennel.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:02
|
|
|
football fuckerman posted:believe it or not, Bill Cowher doesn't want to leave the CBS desk to coach the Browns. The Browns are gonna land a good coach like the Harbaughs, a guy out of college or the coordinator ranks with no HC experience. They're not going to get someone who is obviously already a great coach, because that guy doesn't want to leave New England, CBS or NBC to coach a lovely team. So they're left replacing relatively faceless coordinator with relatively faceless coordinator, which is what they have to do until one of them turns out to be a Harbaugh rather than a Crennel. But then, even when they get a competent coach like Norv or Shanahan they drive them off because they have no faith in their own job security.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:07
|
|
|
I'll coach the Browns.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:09
|
|
|
What they need is: A power vacuum in the division Multiple successful drafts A generational D Lineman A competent QB Then they're primed for leonine success
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:09
|
|
|
Moxie posted:What they need is: what about new helmets
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:10
|
|
|
Ehud posted:I'll coach the Browns. I'd like to GM. Or President it. Whatever is the one where I also get to manage drafts and evaluate players and build poo poo. And have a G5 and tell evil dooers to get off of my plane.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:15
|
|
|
Moxie posted:What they need is: lol that's the worst part, even putting together all these things all we might get is a few 9 and 10 win seasons then we go and hire the next Jim Caldwell *points to a big rock that kinda looks like a toad*
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:21
|
|
|
I want to use Marvin Lewis as an example of just sticking with a guy as he figures poo poo out, but even he came in with a #1 overall QB prospect.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:27
|
|
|
Kalli posted:I want to use Marvin Lewis as an example of just sticking with a guy as he figures poo poo out, but even he came in with a #1 overall QB prospect. the best example of this is Bill Belichick probably
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 21:51
|
|
|
football fuckerman posted:the best example of this is Bill Belichick probably How's that? He had ONE 5-11 season, then won the Super Bowl the second year. Also worth noting that they fired Pete Carroll to bring in Bill-and Carroll had taken the Patriots to the playoffs in two of his three seasons as head coach. That isn't exactly Jobian patience. Unless you're referring to Bill's time in Cleveland, which doesn't make sense in this context.
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
The best example is Joe Philbin. Soon you'll see. Soon you'll all see...
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 22:06
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 09:42 |
|
|
unl33t posted:How's that? He had ONE 5-11 season, then won the Super Bowl the second year. Also worth noting that they fired Pete Carroll to bring in Bill-and Carroll had taken the Patriots to the playoffs in two of his three seasons as head coach. That isn't exactly Jobian patience. lol you're right, I thought he had at least one more mediocre year in New England before the success came. His time with the Browns could fit what I'm talking about, not many teams would let a guy go 6-10, 7-9, 7-9 and give him a fourth season, when he went 11-5. At the end of that third season we'd all be wondering why he was sticking around, and I wouldn't blame a team for firing a coach in that situation
|
|
#
?
Apr 9, 2015 22:46
|
|