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CommieGIR posted:So Mary get's to be exalted among women, but all others better be submissive and non-exalted. Yes, that's my point. Giving birth has hardly been treated as an exalted act in any meaningful way, no matter what the Church may say. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 23:19
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Barlow posted:The Bible is a bunch of books and comes from many perspectives, they don't always agree on these points. Kinda makes you wonder why God chose such shitheads to write down His views on morality and Goodness. Also, I just wanted to point out how awesome it is how a person doesn't have to know jack all about anything to debate theology and still be on equal footing with people who've devoted their lives to study.
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Mar 3, 2015 01:07
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Barlow posted:Here's the thing with Christianity, you can always find a verse that supports the interpretation that you want. You want to subjugate women you quote Ephesians 5:22-24, you believe in equality you can cite Galatians 3:28. The community interprets the text, spouting off lines from scripture doesn't prove much.
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Mar 3, 2015 01:26
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Irony Be My Shield posted:So in other words the OP is correct and biblical scripture is irrelevant, since it just tells you whatever you want it to? I get this same feeling with a lot of apologist arguments - yeah you can entirely dodge consistency and evidence based criticisms by making your position more vague, but it serves to completely undermine the purpose of making your argument in the first place. The fact that religion is becoming less relevant in the (American) political sphere is obvious. But that isn't because we suddenly gained the ability to read verses out of context.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:16
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Series DD Funding posted:The fact that religion is becoming less relevant in the (American) political sphere is obvious. But that isn't because we suddenly gained the ability to read verses out of context. Excellent non sequitur. I take it you're on the side defending the relevance of Jesus Christ? VVVV Note "religion" or some form of christianity, not Jesus Christ as any sort of symbolic figure or figurehead or anything like that. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 03:37 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 03:20
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Series DD Funding posted:The fact that religion is becoming less relevant in the (American) political sphere is obvious. But that isn't because we suddenly gained the ability to read verses out of context. LESS Relevant? How so? Its been pushed into the public sphere and political sphere even more in the last decade, despite the decline of religion in the population.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:So in other words the OP is correct and biblical scripture is irrelevant, since it just tells you whatever you want it to? I get this same feeling with a lot of apologist arguments - yeah you can entirely dodge consistency and evidence based criticisms by making your position more vague, but it serves to completely undermine the purpose of making your argument in the first place. The mistake here is to believe that the core of the Christian faith is its scripture alone, for most the core is about Christ. This isn't Islam where a central text was sent directly by God, some communities will interpret the text through continuing revelation, others do so through a church hierarchy.. The text is hardly irrelevant, it is the central touchstone that enables communities to discern their course. That may sound evasive, and indeed it serves the needs of communities and not apologetics. I would hope ideas would change over several thousand years, especially if revelation is ongoing. A Terrible Person posted:how awesome it is how a person doesn't have to know jack all about anything to debate theology and still be on equal footing with people who've devoted their lives to study. Theology is a lot like art, literature or philosophy, where sometimes you can have an intelligent conversation when people don't have much formal study of the subject. It is indeed awesome that it can be made accessible.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:39
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CommieGIR posted:LESS Relevant? How so? Its been pushed into the public sphere and political sphere even more in the last decade, despite the decline of religion in the population. It absolutely has not, unless your definition is "when I bothered to pay attention to it". For gently caress's sake how was adding "in god we trust" back in the 50s, jsut because all the commies were atheist, not that?
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Mar 3, 2015 03:49
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Nintendo Kid posted:It absolutely has not, unless your definition is "when I bothered to pay attention to it". The scale has only increased was my point.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:51
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CommieGIR posted:LESS Relevant? How so? Its been pushed into the public sphere and political sphere even more in the last decade, despite the decline of religion in the population. During the 20th century, creationism left public schools, and birth control, blasphemy, and no-fault divorce became legal. In what ways do you think the trend is reversing? 
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Mar 3, 2015 03:54
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CommieGIR posted:The scale has only increased was my point. It has not, again, unless your only point of reference is not paying attention in the past and paying attention now.
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Mar 3, 2015 03:55
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Series DD Funding posted:During the 20th century, creationism left public schools, and birth control, blasphemy, and no-fault divorce became legal. In what ways do you think the trend is reversing? It'd be nice if the Gallup poll had some bearing of the sheer amount of Right Wing theological dumbassery that gets voted in by a vocal minority Nintendo Kid posted:It has not, again, unless your only point of reference is not paying attention in the past and paying attention now. Well, consider what I have to deal with is right now, and somehow a vocal minority managed to overwhelm a non-vocal majority....yes? Its all well and good that the majority feels these things are in decline, but it has no real bearing if the vocal minority continues to wield the legislative power.
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Mar 3, 2015 04:02
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CommieGIR posted:It'd be nice if the Gallup poll had some bearing of the sheer amount of Right Wing theological dumbassery that gets voted in by a vocal minority What exactly are you dealing with now?
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Mar 3, 2015 04:04
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Series DD Funding posted:The fact that religion is becoming less relevant in the (American) political sphere is obvious. But that isn't because we suddenly gained the ability to read verses out of context. Barlow posted:The mistake here is to believe that the core of the Christian faith is its scripture alone, for most the core is about Christ. This isn't Islam where a central text was sent directly by God, some communities will interpret the text through continuing revelation, others do so through a church hierarchy.. The text is hardly irrelevant, it is the central touchstone that enables communities to discern their course.
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Mar 3, 2015 04:04
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CommieGIR posted:It'd be nice if the Gallup poll had some bearing of the sheer amount of Right Wing theological dumbassery that gets voted in by a vocal minority What do you have to deal with now that you didn't have to deal with in the 2000s or 90s or 80s or 70s or 60s or 50s or... Seriously, did you just live a sheltered life until 4 years ago or something? Do you literally not remember the Bush administration? Did they never teach you a major factor in why Reagan won? And clearly you've never heard about what went on during and before World War II. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 04:15
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Barlow posted:The mistake here is to believe that the core of the Christian faith is its scripture alone, for most the core is about Christ. This isn't Islam where a central text was sent directly by God, some communities will interpret the text through continuing revelation, others do so through a church hierarchy.. The text is hardly irrelevant, it is the central touchstone that enables communities to discern their course. Which Christ? There were a few books with conflicting views of who he was, what he said, and what he believed. Or is your view that the best, most coherent argument that uses Scripture but it is more than willing to ignore it while making a more sensible point is the best view? "Whoever can make up the best-sounding, most-believable bullshit free of evidence wins." quote:Theology is a lot like art, literature or philosophy, where sometimes you can have an intelligent conversation when people don't have much formal study of the subject. It is indeed awesome that it can be made accessible. Theology is bullshit because it contains no facts and literally everyone is correct. Thanks for clearing that up.
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Mar 3, 2015 04:22
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Nintendo Kid posted:What do you have to deal with now that you didn't have to deal with in the 2000s or 90s or 80s or 70s or 60s or 50s or... I am well aware of what happened prior to World War 2 and Reagan's Partisan political gaming of the system, but religious influenced partisanship HAS been on the rise for the past decade, and sharply increased under George W. Bush and even more so after Obama's election. http://www.pewforum.org/2012/02/02/trends-in-party-identification-of-religious-groups/ Are you denying there has been a significant increased in recent years? Or were you just too busy to watch CPAC.
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Mar 3, 2015 04:24
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This explains why communities find the scriptures important, sure, but I put it to you that it's not useful as a source of teaching if it's vague enough that any interpretation is possible. Communities will simply arrive at an interpretation that suits them through whatever means they choose. careful, that's dangerously close to sounding a lot like  MORAL RELATIVISM
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Mar 3, 2015 04:27
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CommieGIR posted:I am well aware of what happened prior to World War 2 and Reagan's Partisan political gaming of the system, but religious influenced partisanship HAS been on the rise for the past decade, and sharply increased under George W. Bush and even more so after Obama's election. You're confusing religion moving away from being a solidly bipartisan thing to shifting pretty much wholesale to one side. That doesn't mean religion is increasing its influence. Remember that it was completely legal for a state to ban teaching evolution as late as 1968. Mandatng teaching creationism in school, alongside evolution, wasn't illegal for a state to do until 1987. Edit: seriously your link says "everyone is more republican, and some religions even more so". That's it. Nintendo Kid fucked around with this message at 04:36 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 04:29
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Irony Be My Shield posted:This explains why communities find the scriptures important, sure, but I put it to you that it's not useful as a source of teaching if it's vague enough that any interpretation is possible. Communities will simply arrive at an interpretation that suits them through whatever means they choose. A Terrible Person posted:"Whoever can make up the best-sounding, most-believable bullshit free of evidence wins." Barlow fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 05:52
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Barlow posted:This seems to be the wrong attitude, religion should not be a game of who can beat who. Nor is it a debate. If there is a way to "win" I've personally always thought it was simply by finding an faith that supports you to serve and love others and encouraging others to do the same. That's great if you just want some hippy feel-good philosophical security blankets, but it's awful if you actually care about truth.
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Mar 3, 2015 17:47
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Who What Now posted:That's great if you just want some hippy feel-good philosophical security blankets, but it's awful if you actually care about truth. What is truth?
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Mar 3, 2015 18:00
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Series DD Funding posted:What is truth? Don't. Do. It.
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Mar 3, 2015 18:03
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Series DD Funding posted:What is truth? Here comes the metaphysics....
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Mar 3, 2015 18:07
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CommieGIR posted:Here comes the metaphysics.... Quit whining about people discussing the literal subject of the thread, guy who thinks America is more religious/affected by the religious now than ever before.
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Mar 3, 2015 18:37
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Nintendo Kid posted:Quit whining about people discussing the literal subject of the thread, guy who thinks America is more religious/affected by the religious now than ever before. So you are saying its not a problem anymore. Got it. 
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Mar 3, 2015 18:43
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That kinda seems like a straw man to me.
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Mar 3, 2015 18:44
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Series DD Funding posted:What is truth? That which most accurately describes or comports with reality. EDIT: And you know what, let me just head your next stoner-retard philosophy bullshit question off at the pass. I'm talking about the reality that we collectively experience.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:04
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Who What Now posted:EDIT: And you know what, let me just head your next stoner-retard philosophy bullshit question off at the pass. I'm talking about the reality that we collectively experience. Hahaha.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:08
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Who What Now posted:EDIT: And you know what, let me just head your next stoner-retard philosophy bullshit question off at the pass. I'm talking about the reality that we collectively experience. Oh poo poo.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:13
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Miltank posted:That kinda seems like a straw man to me. Its such a strawman that the issues it brings up are currently going before the Supreme Court, meanwhile I'm having to deal with a state rapidly defunding their public education so they can dump it into Christian charter schools. What a strawman!
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Mar 3, 2015 19:14
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*bong rip* You can't, like, share realities maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. Like, what if, like... no, no, hear me out, ok. What if, like, in my reality my blue is your red, man? Like, dude, dude! Dude.... Think about it man. And then pass me the Fritos.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:15
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I'm a solipsist, so the reality we all collectively experience is just whatever I think it to be anyway. Check. Mate.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:17
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Kylra posted:I'm a solipsist, so the reality we all collectively experience is just whatever I think it to be anyway. Kindly imagine a world that sucks less then, TIA
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Mar 3, 2015 19:20
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Working on it. I've been kind of depressed lately.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:24
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CommieGIR posted:So you are saying its not a problem anymore. Got it. I'm saying it's way less of a problem than it has ever been to date. CommieGIR posted:Its such a strawman that the issues it brings up are currently going before the Supreme Court, meanwhile I'm having to deal with a state rapidly defunding their public education so they can dump it into Christian charter schools. What a strawman! See this is how I know you're just a dude who hasn't paid attention to the past. Until the 60s, Christianity was straight up taught and mandatory in many public schools nationwide, before about the 1930s it was even a majority of them. Only a moron would conclude that it's a bigger problem now. The very fact that churches make active efforts to fight larger society these days, instead of BEING society is why it's so much less of a problem.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:25
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Who What Now posted:That which most accurately describes or comports with reality. 49% of Americans have had a religious experience: http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/mystical-experiences/ Is that collective enough?
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Mar 3, 2015 19:27
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Nintendo Kid posted:See this is how I know you're just a dude who hasn't paid attention to the past. Until the 60s, Christianity was straight up taught and mandatory in many public schools nationwide, before about the 1930s it was even a majority of them. You can claim its not as much of a problem, but it IS a problem, and one that directly affects me and people around me. The only real difference between now and then is that it is now controversial to propose such fundamentalist legislation, whereas then it was not. The problem has not decreased, its just become more public. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Mar 3, 2015 |
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Mar 3, 2015 19:29
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Who What Now posted:*bong rip* You can't, like, share realities maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. Like, what if, like... no, no, hear me out, ok. What if, like, in my reality my blue is your red, man? Like, dude, dude! Dude.... Think about it man. And then pass me the Fritos. lol
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Mar 3, 2015 19:30
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CommieGIR posted:You can claim its not as much of a problem, but it IS a problem, and one that directly affects me and people around me. It affected you and the people around you a lot more 10 years ago, a lot more than that 10 years prior to that, and so on. You really don't seem to understand how weakened the churches are these days. Remember that it was legal to require creation to be taught beside evolution until the 80s, rather than having to do elaborate dodges to attempt to get money into Christian schools as they try to do today. Which is something they do because about 10 years ago attempting to mandate creationism as "intelligent design" got called for its bullshit. Which is something they did because attempting to skirt the supreme court rulings about creationism proper failed in the 90s. And so on. You're like the idiot suburban parent who's convinced the black people are about to come out to Whitesburg at any moment to steal things. You lack any ability to comprehend actual risks.
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Mar 3, 2015 19:47
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