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Disinterested posted:I don't know why all of you seem to be goonrushing so close to the incident, why not just wait and see what turns up in the investigation. People like to tie poo poo up with a neat little bow as quickly as possible in a way that fits nicely into their world. It's a human thing, we all do it.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:41
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Jastiger posted:gently caress gently caress gently caress this guy was on my facebook friends list. I wake up this morning to messages from a friend letting me know that this happened. In fairness, you'd be a good pick for "most likely to be friends with a murderer".
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Feb 11, 2015 17:42
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Let's all be cautious and wait for the facts when a white man commits a crime.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:42
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computer parts posted:Let's all be cautious and wait for the facts when a white man commits a crime. I didn't assume that the Charlie Hebdo attack was committed by Muslims or non-White people. Please to be taking your straw man elsewhere.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:43
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While I agree that we should wait and see what turns up I have difficulty believing someone would execute three people just over a parking dispute.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:43
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computer parts posted:Let's all be cautious and wait for the facts when a white man commits a crime. Yes of course? Just as we should if a black or hispanic man(or woman) commits a crime, for example. Are you implying we shouldn't?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:44
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Zeroisanumber posted:Initial reports are that Hicks went berserk over an ongoing parking dispute. While it could very well be that he went on a "New Atheism"-inspired rampage, it could also be just another case of an aging white male feeling disrespected by a minority and deciding to correct the perceived injustice through murder. Perpetrator upset about Muslim poverty and oppression, bombing and/or invasion of eight Muslim countries, hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths: Offensive to even bring up, victim blaming, apologizing for the uniquely violent nature of Islam. Perpetrator upset about parking space: whoa whoa let's not drop context here
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Feb 11, 2015 17:44
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The pleasant quiet on this board when MIGF is probated is nothing compared to the luxurious silence of Tezzor's absence.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:45
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As a moderate atheist, I condemn these awful actions and fully support your upcoming war that will lead to me being killed anyway.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:45
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Vaginapocalypse posted:Some of the more extreme atheists, like Sam Harris, have advocated for a preemptive nuclear strike against Muslims and have defended the use of torture to combat the Muslim threat. It's kinda a bad thing when you start taking the same positions that Christalian fundamentalists take when it comes to possible existential threats. That is not entirely accurate, even though I don't agree with him on either point as he actually phrased it. The pre-emptive strike was in a scenario where a group like, at the time, Al-Qaeda or some government with their values, had gotten their hands on nukes themselves and were preparing to start a world war with them, after earlier measures like tactical strikes or diplomacy had failed. To which I'd say it was probably a bit late for that measure to have a positive effect anyway. He also advocated torture against terror suspects, not Muslims or Islam in general, as that post seems to indicate. Not that, as far as I know, torture actually works anyway. He's argued that it does, and may've provided some evidence for that, but I haven't had a time to check it out, nor have I heard most anyone say that point of view seems legit in light of that revelation. Beyond the whole "completely ethically amoral" bit of torturing other human beings.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:46
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hepatizon posted:In fairness, you'd be a good pick for "most likely to be friends with a murderer". gently caress you man. It really bothers me that some random joe on my social media killed someone and it shows me as a "mutual friend". People are dead because of this rear end in a top hat and regardless of whatever posts are on SA, being associated with murder isn't funny nor taken lightly.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:47
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Disinterested posted:I didn't assume that the Charlie Hebdo attack was committed by Muslims or non-White people. Please to be taking your straw man elsewhere. Wait why? They were yelling "Allahu Akbar" in the street, and this guy was posting militant New Atheist rhetoric on Facebook. I think in both cases, by this time it was safe to assume that the killers were militant ideologues.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:48
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SedanChair posted:Wait why? They were yelling "Allahu Akbar" in the street, and this guy was posting militant New Atheist rhetoric on Facebook. I think in both cases, by this time it was safe to assume that the killers were militant ideologues. Maybe I should have said 'presume', but until I saw the video I thought it was quite possible that right wing white guys had shot up Charlie Hebdo - that was my point. Membership in Daesh is not equivalent to liking Richard Dawkins on twitter so I sort of reserve judgement about the militant atheist rhetoric until something more comes up. Particular since his banner, while stupid, specifically says 'I respect your right to believe what you want' or whatever. I fully expect to find out this guy was a closet racist or had a severe unmedicated illness or something else on top of the new-atheist stuff.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:49
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Tezzor posted:Perpetrator upset about Muslim poverty and oppression, bombing and/or invasion of eight Muslim countries, hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths: Offensive to even bring up, victim blaming, apologizing for the uniquely violent nature of Islam. It is hard to believe that the perpetrator wasn't at least somewhat influenced by his own extremist anti-religious beliefs. I don't consider the New Atheist movement to be more dangerous and violent than Christian fundamentalism, but it is undeniable that its more radical members have taken an aggressive stance to Islam that justifies extreme violence and torture.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:50
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B-but it's so hard being white! Waaaaaagh!
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SedanChair posted:Wait why? They were yelling "Allahu Akbar" in the street, and this guy was posting militant New Atheist rhetoric on Facebook. I think in both cases, by this time it was safe to assume that the killers were militant ideologues. False equivalence, association fallacy. The question remains if he murdered them because of Atheism, or if he was an Atheist that committed murder.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:50
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Jastiger posted:gently caress you man. It really bothers me that some random joe on my social media killed someone and it shows me as a "mutual friend". People are dead because of this rear end in a top hat and regardless of whatever posts are on SA, being associated with murder isn't funny nor taken lightly. The real victim. 
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Feb 11, 2015 17:50
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Disinterested posted:Membership in Daesh is not equivalent to liking Richard Dawkins on twitter Eh. Broken Cog posted:False equivalence, association fallacy. The question remains if he murdered them because of Atheism, or if he was an Atheist that committed murder. He is a militant ideologue.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:51
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Sorry - I forgot my pbuh. SedanChair posted:He is a militant ideologue. Have you got something other than the stupid facebook banner? People who tweet about how awesome American Sniper was appear ostensibly more dangerous to me than that image.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:52
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Disinterested posted:Have you got something other than the stupid facebook banner? People who tweet about American Sniper appear ostensibly more dangerous to me than that image. Yeah, he shot three people. That's the "militant" part. The banner is the "ideologue" part.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:54
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SedanChair posted:Eh. So? Still no apparent connection, you are jumping to conclusion based on no evidence. (Yes yes I know your entire existence in this forum is based on being a snarky smartass).
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Feb 11, 2015 17:54
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SedanChair posted:Yeah, he shot three people. That's the "militant" part. The banner is the "ideologue" part. I mean, yeah, but I'm still going to sit on the fence for a bit, if only because I enjoy the sensation.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:55
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Did Dick Dorkins condemn this yet?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:56
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R. Mute posted:Did Dick Dorkins condemn this yet? Does Zoux hate gay people?
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Feb 11, 2015 17:56
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R. Mute posted:Did Dick Dorkins condemn this yet? https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/565439089038852097
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Feb 11, 2015 17:57
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Tezzor posted:Perpetrator upset about Muslim poverty and oppression, bombing and/or invasion of eight Muslim countries, hundreds of thousands of Muslim deaths: Offensive to even bring up, victim blaming, apologizing for the uniquely violent nature of Islam. The fact that he's an Atheist may or may not be context. computer parts posted:Let's all be cautious and wait for the facts when a white man commits a crime. Yes, let's.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:57
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He certainly is an ideologue but I didn't see anything that even comes close to advocating violence on his Facebook page, indeed most of it including the banner is anti-violence. I mean it's perfectly possible he was motivated by anti-Muslim rhetoric but I don't see any real evidence for it as of yet.
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Feb 11, 2015 17:58
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Zeroisanumber posted:The fact that he's an Atheist may or may not be context. This is true as far as it goes but it also obstinately refuses to address the point that if the victims and perpetrator were reversed (Muslim with a bunch of intolerant religious opinions on his facebook wall guns down three atheists) it wouldn't even be put to question that he was motivated by his religious beliefs.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:06
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It seems like it is irrelevant what he tought about muslims if that`s not what motivated him to kill. He is more like a killer who happens to be racist and rather than a racist killer. This does not quite correspond the Charlie Hebdo killings since these were explictly idelogically motivated.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:07
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Tezzor posted:This is true as far as it goes but it also obstinately refuses to address the point that if the victims and perpetrator were reversed it wouldn't even be put to question that he was motivated by his religious beliefs. So naturally let's correct this sin by treating everyone equally badly! Most of the people you've argued with on SA do not assume that people commit violent acts because they are Muslims. It is a bit different to assume that a member of Daesh is committing violent acts for religious reasons. To the extent anyone is violent for religion, such a person is, even if there are other major factors that cause forms of religious belief to become popular. I sense you're holding back Tezzor. Say what you feel. Go on.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:09
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Tezzor posted:This is true as far as it goes but it also obstinately refuses to address the point that if the victims and perpetrator were reversed (Muslim with a bunch of intolerant religious opinions on his facebook wall guns down three atheists) it wouldn't even be put to question that he was motivated by his religious beliefs. So? If Islamophobic people condemn Muslims before evidence is out about a crime, that makes them Islamophobes, and likely morons. I'd rather not emulate these people, thank you very much.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:10
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There really wasn't anything on his FB indicating he was violent, other than he enjoyed guns. *shrug*
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Feb 11, 2015 18:10
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Broken Cog posted:So? Still no apparent connection, you are jumping to conclusion based on no evidence. (Yes yes I know your entire existence in this forum is based on being a snarky smartass). I'm not sure what I could be jumping to. He shot people, so he is militant. He posted an anti-theist image on Facebook, so he is an ideologue.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:11
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Kaal posted:Here's a tip to stop coming across as a huge and ignorant bigot: Stop telling people about what "militant atheists" do, and how intolerant "militant atheists" are, and how much "militant atheists" hate Islam and hijabs, and generally acting like a prat. If you don't know what antitheism is, read about it. I don't know why you think that atheists are somehow an exception to the evils of blatant stereotyping, but stop and take a reality-check. atheists are tiny beings no bigger than a quail egg. i could easily crush even the most militant atheist in my hand
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Feb 11, 2015 18:12
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Disinterested posted:So naturally let's correct this sin by treating everyone equally badly! I feel like you're being deliberately dishonest, and hold criticism of your own ideological affiliations to higher standards than otherwise for no reason other than base tribalism. Thank you for the permission.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:13
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SedanChair posted:I'm not sure what I could be jumping to. He shot people, so he is militant. He posted an anti-theist image on Facebook, so he is an ideologue. He is a militant ideologue by that definition - it's just not the definition everyone else is using. Tezzor posted:I feel like you're being deliberately dishonest and hold criticism of your own ideological affiliations to higher standards than otherwise for no reason other than base tribalism. Thank you for the permission. [Citation needed]. Although, I'm not sure I could imagine a person who applies such radically different standards to different groups of people and ideological affiliations than you. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Feb 11, 2015 |
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Feb 11, 2015 18:13
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Tezzor posted:This is true as far as it goes but it also obstinately refuses to address the point that if the victims and perpetrator were reversed (Muslim with a bunch of intolerant religious opinions on his facebook wall guns down three atheists) it wouldn't even be put to question that he was motivated by his religious beliefs. People are fond of making lazy connections that reinforce their biases.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:13
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I'm an atheist philosophically and believe this man killed them based on his antitheist atheist beliefs. I'm not understanding 99% of this thread on both ends because near as i can tell both views can be held without cognitive dissonance so... what the gently caress is going on?
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Feb 11, 2015 18:14
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SedanChair posted:I'm not sure what I could be jumping to. He shot people, so he is militant. He posted an anti-theist image on Facebook, so he is an ideologue. You're twisting words in an attempt to support your position. Say he was "militant"(would you say anyone who kills or uses guns is militant) and an ideologue, if you call him "militant ideologue" you are drawing a connection between them in order to imply that he used militarism to push his ideology. As far as I have seen there has been no evidence that he supported using violence to push his beliefs, nor that it was connected to this triple murder.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:15
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A lot of folks seem to be putting tidbits of information together in their head to come to the conclusion that this guy did what he did because he has some sort of militant atheist outlook. If it's alright to say so, I think people might be assuming here. Someone said they did not know how a parking dispute could end up in a triple-murder. I don't know how something like that could result in that either, but people can and often do do things that might seem like it doesn't make sense to react that way. Maybe the victims were parking in front of his house or something and it drove him bonkers. It doesn't make a lot of sense, because most of us would not really have a problem with that sort of thing. Neighbors do attack each other over things other than religion or race, though. Google barking dogs neighbor killed and you'll see news stories about neighbors hurting or killing each other over that sort of thing. People can and do kill each other for all sorts of stupid reasons. I'm aware that he railed against religion(?) in facebook posts or something to that effect, but to correlate that as evidence of the reason for his actions would seem like jumping to a conclusion to me. Hopefully all the details will be out soon. I'm not excusing him or his actions. Just saying people kill for all sorts of reasons. I wish they wouldn't.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:16
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Lid posted:I'm an atheist philosophically and believe this man killed them based on his antitheist atheist beliefs. I'm not understanding 99% of this thread on both ends because near as i can tell both views can be held without cognitive dissonance so... what the gently caress is going on? Crybabies desperate to cling to the pretense of undisputed moral superiority of their belief system call for context and calm, never do anything of the sort when perpetrators are of belief system they dislike for largely facile reasons.
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Feb 11, 2015 18:17
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