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Hegel
Dec 17, 2009

Maluco Marinero posted:

Yeah, the issue is today's prototype is tomorrow's production. PayPal essentially transitioned from prototyping in node.js to deploying production in node.js. Whether this choice holds up in the long term remains to be seen, but we've seen the consequences of such a choice before in Rails applications. Facebook gets by with PHP via a furious case of digging up (optimisations, compilers and what not).

Also, as said there are far better languages to do these prototypes in, with far healthier ecosystems for back end tech. I have no idea when a decent SQL Statement Mapper will come existence, maybe follow a relation or two.

Prototypes are best built with stable reliable libraries & frameworks, not a house of cards that sends you error chasing all the time.

I hate to sound like a dick, but based on your comments in this thread I have a hard time believing you have much more than a quite narrowly bounded understanding of web development. What "consequences" in Rails applications are you referring to? There is still a very sizeable community of rails shops that run successful businesses. Aside from an internet rumor mill that got out of control, there haven't really been any fatal downsides that would block every sane business from ever using Rails in prod. That doesn't mean that the framework solves all web dev problems; just that it's flaws are often grossly overstated without a shred of evidence to back up their claims.

How much actual experience with Node in production do you have? I'm not denying that there are a ton of idiots in the world doing terrible things with Node, but we use it at work in prod, and it has proven to be far easier to develop with and maintain than our legacy js/django software.

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Hegel
Dec 17, 2009

Maluco Marinero posted:

You'll have to qualify narrowly bounded I'm afraid. Turns out I do use node in production, however I try to restrict that to what it's best at, rendering templates, forming the basis of a front end build system, sharing the render code for client and server code.

In cases where I have worked beyond that I find its error handling disappointingly leaky, it doesn't lend itself well to larger teams because of that, and the libraries it's built upon are immature, meaning wheel reinvention is often needed, including downright bizarre behaviours in even simple cases like trying to set a cookie in express + passport. (passport would override what I sent previously and change parameters on it).

Of course, everyone's development scenario is different, but there's a lot of things that are taken for granted in more mature languages that just can't be in Node. Anything can be used in production if you spend enough time papering over the problems to avoid abandoning your existing code, but that doesn't mean it's a good foundation to build new stuff on.

This doesn't answer any of my questions.

I didn't ask whether/or but how much prod node experience do you have? Were you involved in deciding to use the tech? Seen a wide range of applications or taken the time to become familiar with current best practices? Or are you a lost Java dev thrown into a node project because that's your job and you have to live with it?

You also totally ignored the Rails comments, an omission which speaks volumes.

As previously mentioned, I can't defend an entire army of idiots writing lovely libraries, but the overbearing problems from things like a Java server-side application or the downright deplorable hell of maintaining inherited templates in Django are enough to convince me that any judicious dev team can deploy node effectively with greater efficiency than other pieces of tech for particular problems.

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