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I have had a few interesting episodes of needing to let people go. I have never been able to just 'fire' someone, HR has always been involved and there were either layoffs or a very well documented case for termination. But then again :California: employment laws. The fit issue: I took over a team (watch the theme here) and found out that the historical bottom performer on the team has been underutilized and on all kinds of performance improvement over the years. Part of the issue was language, and the job required fluent english, and while he had good grammar, he was not well spoken (was not a native english speaker). Apparently we had sent him to speaking and presentation classes and all sorts of things, and while he improved he never improved enough. So, I embarked on a 'get well' plan (the stage before being put on a straight up performance management plan). Documented actions, what was needed, improvements, all that. And the guy improved. Just enough to not go to the next stage. While this was happening I was trying to find him a new job internally that would be a better fit and not require language and sales skill the person did not possess. The team he supported still did not use him, and no matter how much he progressed against the performance plan, the major issues never got better. We finally were able to put together an actual performance plan that required the people he supported to sign off that the issues were resolved, and that got the individual to get the hint and take the package (after getting lawyers involved). The Insanity Defense: I took over another team and found (shocker) and employee issue that the previous manager had neglected. This employee was toxic and checked out. Conveniently his role was supporting two different teams, so he constantly played the teams against each other (request from team A would get 'I'm too bust working for team b' and vice versa). When I spoke to my boss about the issue, I got a 'yeah we know about that you should do something about it, talk to HR.' There was ample documentation on issues with this employee and we should have just been able to put them on plan. But no. The person in question actually got himself considered by HR to be in a 'protected' employment class in his state due to medical reasons, specifically mental health related. I think he claimed that his job was so stressful he had to see a shrink and was depressed or suicidal or something. I tried the tact of 'you aren't happy here...,' and, 'your issues just aren't fixable here,' to no avail. Now we could not fire the guy, or even put him on plan at this point. So we took a chance. We had the 'we can do this the easy way or the hard way,' discussion. Either he could resign and go gracefully or we could put him on plan and eventually fire him (which was a total bluff). He was miserable to the point where after a few days we had his resignation letter. Still surprised I didn't get sued over that one. The Didn't Take the Hint Guy: Layoffs suck. Hard. As the person doing the layoffs, you know it is coming and usually there is a day where everyone has to get notified and you hope you do it quickly enough to avoid the rumor mill and crazy stuff that can go down. In one case, the date was set and we knew a few days in advance who and when all this had to happen. One of the people being let go was going to start a nice vacation on the date in question. The requirement is that you attempt to notify the person on the date of termination, but if you can't (due to a situation like this) you can usually just do it when they get back. The calls were scheduled maybe 24 hours in advance. I told the guy to enjoy his vacation and that we would talk when he got back, but was careful to give no hints as to what was happening. When HR reached out to schedule the call, he actually replied with his travel itinerary and said that he would take the call from his layover in (city) where he was meeting (family) to head overseas to (nice vacation destination). There are actually more details that I cannot share but make this even more sad and devastating, but might reveal too much. HR moved the call to accommodate the travel schedule. So we got on the call bridge and he wasn't there. After about two minutes I suggested we pull the plug, must have missed him and he dings in on the line (his flight was a few minutes late that day). So we had to lay him off. Over the phone. On the way to a nice vacation, with other very sad and tragic implications. I still feel like poo poo about that one. Sorry, employee. Next time don't take work calls on your vacation. I think I kind of ruined his life. The (Metaphorical) Explosion: Imagine the most stressful project of your life. The days when you start off in the morning getting yelled at, eat lunch and dinner at your desk, and at some point stumble out of work and close the bar down knowing you have to do it all again tomorrow. Then do that for nine months straight. Some people crack. The project manager for this fun little project lasted about six months. Then one day he snapped. By now the project was a real shitstorm. Senior VPs for my company and the customer were in town, and there were meetings to try to salvage the project. Well, in the meeting with the VPs, the project manager lost his poo poo. It was ugly. He was sent home the next day. Luckily he wasn't fired, but just reassigned. After that they tried to rotate personnel out of the pressure cooker, but people still quit over this deal. Anyone who didn't burn out ended up getting nice promotions in the end.
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Mar 19, 2015 17:58
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NancyPants posted:Ultimate mango, could you clarify about timing on layoffs. Are you saying that people would find out on the day they are no longer employed or could find out after the fact? At least when I have done it, you had to notify everyone being laid off on the same day, or in the case I tried to make happen, at least attempt to notify the person. The notification date is not necessarily the same as the last day worked. In the case of the guy going on vacation we made it so his last day worked was after he got back so he could turn in his company property and we didn't want to totally dick him over (though we really, really did). Sometimes people get several weeks/months notice, sometimes it is effective immediately. The important thing is that the people who are laid off get an official notification (verbal, followed by email) from their manager and/or Human Resources and not like a friend or coworker.
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Mar 19, 2015 23:04
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Blackjack2000 posted:I wore tons of different hats at my last job, managed vendors, products, platforms, handled reporting, data validation, systems development, on and on. No job sucked half as hard as project management. I still have nightmares about project spreadsheets. I work for a firm with notoriously insolent workers too, so you can just imagine what a joy it was. I could write a thread about that project. Would probably get me sued. The person who imploded wasn't even a project manager. He was just a manager who had to project manage the impossible project. Eventually the project succeeded but just in time for our customer to be acquired and the whole thing iced due to a previous acquisition by the parent company that competed with what we built. I may have more firing stories if this thread is interested. I have seen so many things go so badly firing wise.
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Mar 20, 2015 05:42
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Firing managers is difficult. I need to be careful with these stories, as some of the people involved may be goons, but you should get the idea. The Big Ego: Some people just shouldn't manage other people. When it's all about the manager and the people they like, poo poo can go bad. Real bad. There was a manager who basically kissed major rear end of the senior leadership they supported, took all the credit and glory for things his team did, and basically stepped on anyone lower to make them seem just a little taller. When senior leadership loves a manager and the team loathes their boss, bad things happen. But it is also hard to fire them. This manager actually had people who worked under them quit because of the manage,net style and BS. The manager meanwhile protected people he liked, even if they did questionable things or were poor performers. Heck, those people got raises. This stuff was all documented over a rather lengthy period. Then, at a leadership retreat over drinks one evening, the toxic manager was mouthing off in their general big ego manner to someone who turned out to be the president of another division. Oops. The manager had to be taken outside and told not to come in tomorrow and that they were fired. Unfortunately HR was not consulted before the summary dismissal, got involved, and oh boy, the manager could not be fired after all. Instead this person was given a raise and promotion into a position that did not have direct reports or management responsibility. Yet still worked with the same team they managed a few days before. Can you say, "AWKWARD"? I wish I could say more. Don't fire someone in a position of power in an emotional moment without calling HR. When it backfires, it does, it does so spectacularly. The Prostitute: when you are a people manager, regardless of level, you have to maintain the highest moral and ethical standards. I have seen what happens with executive leadership, the big guns, are found naked in a jacuzzi with junior staff at a hotel where a thousand of their coworkers are staying for a big event. I knew a couple who I saw at work events and retreats who I knew were happily married. It took me many years to learn they weren't married to each other. But this one takes the cake. Rewind a couple years from this story and I am in a hotel with a new nightclub opening that weekend, and I happen to make friends with hotel security. Particularly the couple of people whose job it is to spot and evict working girls. Expensive hotel. New nightclub. Thousands of professionals, many of whom have expense accounts. Pretty much anyone who wasn't there for work was there working. I learned a lot that week. Fast forward to the prostitute incident. There was a manager of fine upstanding moral character at a hotel with a thousand of his coworkers (this story wouldn't work the same with a female protagonist). In a hotel in a town known for its bustling sex trade. Nothing wrong with having a drink at a bar with coworkers. Nothing wrong with chatting up friendly people, who maybe happen to also be attractive and of the opposite sex. Maybe the nice female had a little too much to drink, it would only be appropriate to help a lady back to her room so she wouldn't get taken advantage of, right? So of course you would take them to the elevator and then disappear for twenty or thirty minutes, right? Nothing nefarious here. Oh, except that she was totally a prostitute and the manager, there drinking with the people he managed saw the whole thing and it was obvious. And got reported to HR. It actually took many more complaints in the HR file on this person to actually get them fired. Turns out that if you claim to have strong morals and ethics you can get away with trying to gently caress anything in a skirt and okay it off for a long time. Side note: I have actually had several instances of needing to intervene when a female employee, I think in every case married, and about to either make a bad drunken decision or get taken advantage of sexually. No honey, you don't want to take the sleezeball who snuck into our party and may not (or worse _may_) work with you; back to your room for something consensual or otherwise. Just don't go there. Not with everyone you have to see every day for the rest of your time at your current job. One time it took significant effort to lose the sketchy guy as he attempted to follow the girl back to her room. Never, ever go into a subordinates room alone and always make sure multiple people know what is up and why. I hate to sound like a prude, I mean, gently caress whomever you want. Just don't be stupid about it and make a situation where HR has to get involved. And then fire you. The only caveat: when its HR who is naked in the pool with you and a bunch of other people. That is a nice get out of jail free card. Come to think about it, there were some things that I could write about that made the papers in some places. Man, I have seen some hosed up stuff.
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Mar 23, 2015 05:06
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Blackjack2000 posted:Why does life always seem like a giant sex party that I'm not invited to? There was one Vice President who was a swinger. I swear he married a gal right off a stripper pole. I was never invited to the parties, but some of the younger folks were. It is kind of amazing it never became a major HR involved scandal. Blackjack2000 posted:Also, I don't understand this at all, my industry must work very differently, because where I work, if an employee is not within your reporting structure, you simply have no authority whatsoever to fire them. And everyone drat well knows the management structure between themselves and the CEO. That bit may have been poorly written. The manager who was literally taken out side and fired was taken out by their boss and their boss's boss. What was said was only heard by the three of them, who all had a non zero amount of alcohol in their system. Looking back I am not surprised it didn't stick as a result (at will employment contract or no). The end result was very painful for years afterward, the former manager working on the same team, but not demoted at all and having all kinds of special privileges. I think someone was afraid the guy would sue. Or maybe he had pictures from one of the swinger parties.
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Mar 24, 2015 05:18
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MeruFM posted:it's probably a good idea to dissuade any kind of potential harassment issues between employees during work hours. Harassment lawsuits destroy small companies, and can cause major turbulence even in big companies canyoneer posted:Bingo. HR and their policies are there to protect the company, not to protect an individual employee's expression of free love. My Rhythmic Crotch posted:Sure. But he said "hotel party" which makes me think it's after hours, with whatever alcohol and other substances being paid for by individuals. In that situation, how is a company going to tell me who or what I can't do? All of these are in play to some extent or another. In all of these cases the company was providing the booze and it was definitely a work function. Debate if you want about companies getting their employees blind stinking drunk, this is about firing people. And I can tell you for sure, if a manager got his employees so drunk that something actually bad happened of an assault type nature, what kind of action would a caution HR department take? The one case that really comes to mind was a situation where a male employee from a different office was already starting to cross the line in terms of the way he was talking to and touching a married female employee. Welcome or not, alcohol or not, the behavior was a violation of sexual harassment policies and everyone there who was a people manager had enough training to know intervention was required. Not optional or because we thought something or our morals said it was wrong,it was straight up company policy. Heck, a manager who didn't intervene in a case like that would probably be fired. Sure, go ahead and gently caress whoever you want. Have an affair if that is your thing. Just don't put a manager or HR person in a position where they have to do something like break up your fun. Someone can make a 'loving at work' thread and get a lot of stories from lots of goons. Edit: there was more than one case where someone asked me to intervene, it's not like people are going around policing office hookups. If someone comes and asks me to help get them away from someone making really, seriously unwanted advances, or just asks for help back to their room because they are falling down drunk, I am the sort to help out. Doesn't matter if you are my sister, boss, employee, or friend. Ultimate Mango fucked around with this message at 04:08 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 04:02
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For those of you really interested in what is and is now allowed: become a people manager at a large company in California with employees in California. Enjoy your yearly mandatory training about sexual harassment and what you should and should not care about. It's kind of amazing I didn't have to fire more people in hindsight. Also, I apologize for the derail and not being more clear about some of the sketchy situations where intervention was required. I think I tried too hard to be vague, but I guess a lot of managers have dealt with this stuff. Edit: I posted in the other thread, which is a bit poo poo because it is in GBS. I really wish I could post the phrase that was a major part of the articles, but it would reveal the identities of those people, which I think is against the rules here about doxing or whatever. Ultimate Mango fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Mar 26, 2015 |
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Mar 26, 2015 05:19
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I worked at a place in the relatively early days of the Internet, right when employers got wise to people surfing inappropriate sites at work. Nothing was blocked because the business we were in used the Internet in a variety of ways, so the network admin started watching traffic. One got had a problem. A porn problem. He was given warnings, and was eventually fired when it became known that he had a rotating set of highly graphic pornography. I think people in IT took backups of his extensive, massive porn collection before wiping his computer. Said collection was available on network shares for years. Heck, it is probably still there somewhere. Nite: don't get caught displaying really graphic stuff on your computer in public.
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Mar 26, 2015 22:22
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Blackjack2000 posted:WHAT no dating rules? FFS, can someone point me to a 'no dating' rule? Like, how would that even work, what if you went on a date, but didn't kiss her, then it's just a couple of co-workers having a drink after work, no? I've had corporate jobs since I graduated college like 10 years ago, but I've never heard of any 'no dating' rule, ever. I haven't worked a place in ten years without a dating policy. It's not necessarily forbidden, but like a manager can't date a direct employee and drama has to stay at home. One place I work I a, fairly certain just lifted this template (the page also has a few interesting articles linked). At least in the glorious people's republic of California, dating in the workplace can lead to all kinds of lawsuits if policies are not well documented and communicated to managers and employees.
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Apr 10, 2015 06:23
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