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http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/print-edition/2012/12/28/radical-science-finds-savior-in-thiel.html posted:The Thiel Foundation’s Breakout Labs funds high-risk but potentially disruptive science that would have a hard time attracting funding from conventional sources such as venture firms because it’s too complicated, too expensive or too far from commercialization for investors to feel comfortable. So, they're literally a league of mad scientists. 
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Mar 27, 2015 03:22
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i81icu812 posted:Yud coined a neologism! He even wrote a whole blog post about it. http://lesswrong.com/lw/iw/positive_bias_look_into_the_dark/ Actual distinction between confirmation bias and Yud's thinking? Who knows.  There's a slight difference. Confirmation bias is assessing evidence by emotion rather then dispassionately, so you agree with what you like and discount what you don't like. "Positive bias" refers to the situation where you're not even aware there's another possibility, so you keep trying to prop up what you know works rather then seeking a deeper understanding. It's the idea that the phrase "think outside the box" is supposed to evoke.
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Mar 27, 2015 06:28
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LowellDND posted:Its been a few years since I actually sat down and read these, but good lord Eliezarry is a monster. To be slightly fair, he is very eventually called out on this kind of crap and does agree he was being a bully. This story is allegedly supposed to be a coming-of-age story where the annoying little prick realizes his annoying prick status and reforms, but the realization happens WAY at the end and we never see any reform.
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Mar 30, 2015 15:55
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JosephWongKS posted:“You can't just mix two different species together and get viable offspring?” Really? Seriously? This keeps coming up for some reason. That statement is true by definition. Two animals who can produce viable offspring together are of the same species. Mules, ligers, and other crossbreeds are not viable because they cannot reproduce. Such animals are sterile and cannot produce children, even with the opposite gender of the same crossbreed. e: Although I guess we don't know whether the professor in question is sterile or not, so it's still a dumb statement. 
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Apr 6, 2015 05:31
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I'm going to say I like the hat as a character, since this is the only time in the story that this twit gets the verbal pantsing he so richly deserves.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:04
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Tunicate posted:Wasn't there some review-whoring involved in this chapter as well? Last one. The author said he'd spill his glorious plot to anyone who could guess the twist of the hat becoming self-aware.
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Apr 10, 2015 11:59
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JosephWongKS posted:Chapter 12: Impulse Control Obliviate, which he already knows about.
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May 7, 2015 15:07
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If it helps, what he wanted to do isn't an experiment since there were absolutely no controls. Taking a step back and taking another approach is the wisest thing to do here. Not that that what he's going to do either.
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May 15, 2015 15:41
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Did Big Yud kidnap JWKS and upload his brain into an AI?  While we're waiting, more odd Harry Potter fanfic: http://archiveofourown.org/series/149352 Harry is now Harriet! Because she's a girl, she's able to recruit all kinds of new original characters. They range from good to tokens to silly. Also, this story has a more teenage bent so there's a lot more sex and social issues brought up. Such as the main character's love of Nancy Drew books leading to her being a 14 year old bisexual with a bondage fetish. Granted, this is probably the most steady and respectful depiction of a 13 year old girl with a bondage fetish I've ever seen... please don't arrest me
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Jun 3, 2015 07:42
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The Shortest Path posted:And the fact that it's terrible even for fanfiction is just ridiculous. Out of the probably thousands of pieces of fanfiction I've forced myself to read over the past decade, there is only a single one that actually stands on its own merits as a story, and that's more because it's not really fanfiction at all and is instead a completely original story where some of the protagonists share names with anime lesbians but bear no actual resemblance to said characters or setting or plot. Allow me to show sympathy for doing the terrible task of occasionally reading something you don't want to read. Fanfiction addiction is a serious problem affecting tens of people throughout the world! 
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Jun 8, 2015 23:19
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The Force and the Jedi philosophy vary depending on the source. The movies, particularly the prequels, are the most restrictive. You can't feel any emotion, not fear, not love for family, nothing. Once you're a Jedi you have no will of your own, you do whatever the force tells you to do. It's very puritanical, in its own way.
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Jul 14, 2015 02:34
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:Then why the gently caress have you been freaking out so badly every time you've been faced with a mystery you can't immediately explain? I don't know if Yudkowsky is doing this deliberately, but surely this directly contradicts what Harry has actually been doing. In this context, being intimidated means giving up and not questioning things. Sure, someone can turn into a cat, gently caress it, it's magic. Being freaked out is a completely appropriate response, indicating that you are putting some thought into the subject. It's like if you found out Apollo and his sun-chariot was literally real and had a home on Earth - any decent scientist should be reduced to gibbering madness by this, at least for a little while.
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Aug 7, 2015 02:20
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It had to do with Yud's proposed solution to Newcomb's Paradox. In this thought experiment, a mysterious Oracle want to play a game with you. In box A is $1000, and box B is closed and may or may not contain $1 million. You can choose to take box B alone, or to take both A and B. The Oracle is going to predict your response. If he thinks you'll take box B by itself, he'll have already filled it with the $1 million. If he thinks you'll take both, then box B will be empty. There's a dispute over the proper course of action that divides closely related branches of skepticism, induced by the fictional nature of the the paradox and the Oracle's predictive powers. One camp says there's no reasonable way his predictive powers could work, so any claims to them are nonsense. It doesn't matter what your choice is, since by the time you make it the box is already either full or empty. You might as well take both to get the extra $1000. The second camp would stand back and let others play the game and track his hit rate. Assuming there is a hit rate better then chance, it wouldn't matter how he was making the prediction. If it made no sense considering what we know about the universe, all that means is that what we know about the universe is wrong. Considering the gap between $1 million and 0 is huge, even 1% over chance is a high enough hit rate to risk playing along. He knows what you're going to guess, somehow, and you have to accept the evidence of it. Yud's proposal, which I don't completely understand, says that the information is somehow going back in time. Part of it is something like a code of honor; you always know what the Paladin will choose to do, so you can predict his behavior. So long as you make the decision that is best for your future self, your future self will act in a consistent and predictable way. There's also a bunch of nonsense I can't quite follow tacked on. In the basilisk situation, somehow the torture of your electronic future selves would be passed back to the original, and should influence your behavior.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:01
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:It hinges on the (incredibly improbable) idea of you basing your decisions on what you predict a super-AI will do, and the super-AI then predicting what you will have already done based on what it predicts that you predicted about it. Yeah. I think you're describing one facet of the Halting problem, where predicting predictions becomes provably impossible. According to Yud, the halting problem would not exist between two copies of the same entity, because through some kind of philosophical mysticism they'd be connected and reach the same conclusion. In the basilisk problem, you might not have done what the AI wanted until the electronic copy facing torture mystically passed that information back to you. You see, it's not acausal. That's why he made so much hay over the Comed-Tea in the story; it's only acausal if you discount the possibility of the cause going backward in time. Added Space fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 17:17
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Yeah, I'm willing to give him this whole conceit. This is classic fanfic. Take something ambiguous in canon, come up with a system for how it works, and figure out how the consistent application would affect the story. Granted he's being a bit pedantic about it, but the pedantry fits the characters here so I'd give it a pass. Transfiguration is valuable but dangerous, in the same way we teach ten-year-olds how fire works even though it kills hundreds of children ever year.
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Sep 9, 2015 14:28
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DmitriX posted:No, because "damage" is just a more major shift if you think about it. And if it pulled them away from wherever they are that could cause a great deal of other problems... That's clearly what is was going for, along with what was described in that John Crichton time travel novel. You come out of the process with some of your capillaries out of alignment, or 1% of the cells in your body having broken strands of DNA. As a narrative device it's fine, as science... ambiguous, but who the gently caress knows how magic works, so not something that could be dismissed per se.
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Sep 11, 2015 23:27
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This situation is, in some ways, a lower-stakes version of the Milgram Experiment where subjects are asked to "kill" a subject and nearly everyone obeys. I know he references that at some point, but I'm not sure if he's aware of the comparison here. e: f,b
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Oct 21, 2015 15:24
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The Shortest Path posted:Nah he actually does get some pretty serious consequences for misusing the Time Turner, though they get worked around or something. The "consequences" are that he gets to keep it, and a mildly effective lock is added.
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Apr 28, 2016 17:57
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 Chapter 18: Dominance Hierarchies HPMOR relentlessly follows what TV Tropes calls "The Stations of the Canon". Every major event of the first Harry Potter book is replicated with a bunch of new material crammed in, because this is fanfiction and longer equals better. When we left off, we had just passed the First Potions Class. Harriezer responded to mild provocation by threatening to run away, and then abused two magical artifacts to try to avoid consequences. Of course you can't evade social consequences by turning invisible, so he ends up in front of the Headmaster anyway. Only at this point does he call out Snape with legitimate performance complaints, but that's been completely undermined since it looks like a cover for his own bad behavior. We resume: HPMOR posted:Severus was giving her a look of utter contempt. Minerva raised her chin and bore it. She knew it was deserved. Oh, god. In this fic, Dumbledore, Snape, Harry and Voldemort are Serious People doing Serious Things and everyone else is a disappointing pawn. Minerva and Hermione tend to catch the worst of it, with entire sections dedicated to how foolish they are. I don't think it's intended to be sexist, but that's certainly how it comes off. They enter a long and boring negotiation, with Harry threatening to run away if things don't go his way and Dumbledore humoring him out of seeming madness. A compromise is struck; Snape will be less abusive, and he and Harry will both apologize for acting like idiots. quote:"I think, Professor McGonagall, that you considerably overestimate the importance of what you call school discipline, as compared to having History taught by a live teacher or not torturing your students. Maintaining the current status hierarchy and enforcing its rules seems ever so much more wise and moral and important when you are on the top and doing the enforcing than when you are on the bottom, and I can cite studies to this effect if required. I could go on for several hours about this point, but I will leave it at that."  Does everyone see how much smarter and wiser Harriezer is then that old fuddypants McGonagall? Has it been drilled into your head hard enough?Yud almost has a good point here. Society does contain a lot of arbitrary rules and practices which solely exist to maintain the authority of those already in charge. People with ASD especially have trouble accepting rules that have no practical purpose. As we have seen with the Civil Rights movement or the Stonewall Riots, sometimes authority must be visibly defied before anything will change. Except, of course, an authentic idealist won't start a revolution just to duck personal responsibility. Of course, this common sense is just too much for Minerva. quote:Minerva rose from her chair and almost fell. There was too much adrenaline in her blood, her heart was beating too fast. People with heart conditions should consult their doctor before listening to Harriezer.  Dumbledore lends her Fawkes so her delicate dumb lady constitution doesn't give out while she hands out Harry's punishment. quote:When she stood up she found it hard to speak. But she had to ask. "What happened today, Harry?" A rare moment of actual humility from our lead - conveniently timed to happen right before a punishment he can't wiggle out of. That is, the sensible action that should already have been taken of limiting his Time-Turner use. He can only use it in the evenings, and they'll do spot checks to make sure he's only using two turns a day. quote:"Mr. Potter," she said gently, "there are students who cannot be entrusted with Time-Turners, because they become addicted to them. We give them a potion which lengthens their sleep cycle by the necessary amount, but they end up using the Time-Turner for more than just attending their classes. And so we must take them back. Mr. Potter, you have taken to using the Time-Turner as your solution to everything, often very foolishly so. You used it to get back a Remembrall. You vanished from a closet in a fashion apparent to other students, instead of going back after you were out and getting me or someone else to come and open the door." Harriezer, powerful and creative enough to convince half the school he's a reality warper though snapping, but blind to the obvious consequences of abusing his power. Our hero. Once again, if you have a potion which can alter sleep cycles, why do you not just use that instead of the dangerous, addictive artifact? There's something to be said when the author realizes the intellectual laziness of his character for abusing a power, but doesn't realize his own intellectual laziness of doing the exact same thing. Harry whines and cries about this, despite being told that Dumbledore is taking the heat for the blatant crimes Harriezer committed. quote:"I'm, sorry," he whispered, voice now choked and broken. "I'm sorry, to have, disappointed you..." I thought you'd all enjoy the rare moments of Harriezer in misery. You're a bum, Harry. You need to get off the juice, it's eating you up. Anyway, Harry seems to have had a revelation. He realizes how much his wild actions are creating problems, he feels remorse and a need for reflection. He gets up in front of the school and delivers his apology without a hint of snideness or sarcasm. Maybe we're seeing some growth from this char... quote:Until Harry raised his hand. Never loving mind. 
Added Space fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2016 22:28
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Chapter 19: Delayed Gratification This is one of the more infamous chapters for containing an extended scene of child abuse. I have no idea what the author was trying to accomplish with this scene, but I'll be leaving out that part when we get to it. We instead start on the deep ~*political intrigue*~ of eleven year olds that HPMOR is known for. HPMOR posted:Draco had a stern expression on his face, and his green-trimmed robes somehow looked far more formal, serious, and well-turned-out than the same exact robes as worn by the two boys behind him. Comedy! Laugh, drat you! quote:Harry was hoping that this class would be non-stressful, and that the brilliant Professor Quirrell would realize this was perhaps not the best time to single out Harry for anything. Harry had recovered a little, but... Oh yeah, I'm sure you're beaten up. That prank you pulled in front of the whole school really shows how much this situation has been weighing on you. Also, foreshadowing! Draco corners Harriezer before the super edgy Battle Magic class to try to get him to say what dirt he had on Snape. Harry postures for a bit before saying anything. quote:"Anyway," Harry said. "Trade. I tell you a fact that isn't on the grapevine, and does not go on the grapevine, and in particular does not go to your father, and in return you tell me what you and Slytherin think about the whole business." Draco's end of the bargin is that Slytherin came to the same conclusion, that Harry had some moderately good blackmail material on Dumbledore. The idea that it was an extremely undramatic example of 'I'm holding myself hostage!' doesn't occur to Draco, which is probably to his credit. Draco is a least smart enough to realize that Harriezer can barely be trusted to tie his own shoes. quote:"Harry," Draco said, "you've obviously got incredible talent, but you've got no training and no mentors and you do stupid things sometimes and you really need an advisor who knows how to do this or you're going to get hurt! " Draco's face was fierce. Remember everybody, telling people that you want to be their friends so that you can manipulate them is the height of subterfuge. And Draco's first wonderful piece of political advice? quote:"Push your mudblood rival Granger into a wall or something, everyone in Slytherin will know what that means -" Thank goodness Quirrell shows up or nothing would stop this brain trust from taking over the world. Battle Magic was going to start with shielding, but instead we have a Very Special Lesson plan. Quirrell goes on about he made an Evil Overlord List as a young Slytherin, and pesters Draco a bit before turning to Harry. quote:Harry giggled before he could stop himself. I'm not sure the point about Hitler would work in either continuity. In our world Hitler got in the most trouble fighting Russia, and fighting Russia was most of the point of his rise to power. In the HPMOR continuity I'm fairly sure Hitler was a puppet of Grindelwald who was using the Holocaust to fuel his own power. In any case, this lesson for every first year student in Hogwarts has now been hijacked in order to teach HP a lesson. Instead of reciting the abuse, I'll settle for listing the ways this is similar to cult behavior. Quirrell has isolated Harriezer and held up him for public scrutiny as an example, a cult staple. We take a brief pause as Goyle and Quirrell have a kung fu fight, in which Quirrell takes a dive and begs for mercy. There was apparently a point to this. quote:"The vitally important technique which I demonstrated," said Professor Quirrell, "was how to lose. You may go, Mr. Goyle, thank you." Now I know this is Hogwarts where students routinely get sent to the nurse for pranks gone wrong, but I'm pretty sure you don't have to actively teach children not to kill each other. Or, if you do, the rest of your coursework is questionable. This leads us to cult point number two, making your cult members afraid that any one of them could turn and hurt the others, and therefore everyone has to surrender power to the leadership for their own safety. Quirrell spins a tale of how he trained in the mystic ways of kung fu in the far east. quote:"I learned how to lose in a dojo in Asia, which, as any Muggle knows, is where all the good martial artists live." More of the Big Yud signature racial sensitivity. One day he got angry and took a swing in anger at a sparring partner. The head of the dojo told him to stand still and let all the other students take swings at him while he begged for mercy. FORESHADOWING. He says he took the lesson to heart, but by total coincidence Voldemort rolls up six months later to torture and kill everyone there. This leads us to our somewhat true lesson for the chapter. quote:"Understand that the Dark Lord did not win that day. His goal was to learn martial arts, and yet he left without a single lesson. The Dark Lord was foolish to wish that story retold. It did not show his strength, but rather an exploitable weakness." Anger is a weapon that turns on the wielder, kids. Unless of course you're smart enough that none can hold you accountable, then you're free to indulge. quote:"What you demonstrated today, Mr. Potter, is that - unlike those animals who keep their claws sheathed and accept the results - you do not know how to lose a dominance contest. When a Hogwarts professor challenged you, you did not back down. When it looked like you might lose, you unsheathed your claws, heedless of the danger. You escalated, and then you escalated again. It started with a slap at you from Professor Snape, who was obviously dominant over you. Instead of losing, you slapped back and lost ten points from Ravenclaw. Soon you were talking about leaving Hogwarts. The fact that you escalated even further in some unknown direction, and somehow won at the end, does not change the fact that you are an idiot." And other one for Quirrell. Harry had some valid points, but lacked any kind of wisdom for when and how he should have made that confrontation. When an authority figure has you dead to rights, you bow your head and wait for a safer time to respond. The ritual 'surrender' in this case was supposed to be Harriezer's public apology, but he quite obviously hosed that up and showed he had no awareness of these social conventions. This is certainly a lesson Harriezer needs to learn, but what actually happens is just about the worst possible venue and method. Quirrell starts dropping heavy hints that Harry is now due for a public beatdown. The boy once again tries to evade the consequences of his bad decisions by delaying or stopping things before they happen, but this time I'm on his side. Quirrell browbeats him into accepting by playing on Harriezer's paranoia about his Evil Within. The professor then calls for volunteers from the audience. quote:"{D}o any of you wish to show your dominance over the Boy-Who-Lived? Shove him around, push him to the ground, hear him beg for your mercy?" We're on to another cult facet here. Cult leaders rarely punish followers with their own hands; this risks the lower ranks having common cause to rally against their superiors. Instead, leaders get members of the lower ranks to dole out punishments. This keeps them divided by fear and guilt, while the leadership claims benevolence. Draco tries to show unity by volunteering to stand next to Harriezer, but Quirrell brushes this off. Harry is then beaten up by a group of older students while his peers watch in enforced silence. Public corporeal punishment is another clear cult practice and I refuse to repeat even a single line of this part. Enough to say it goes on far too long. Draco steps up after the beating to condemn the volunteers as thugs. That rings extremely hollow from the guy who suggested 'push a girl into a wall' not too long ago. We come to the denouement. quote:"Will you remember how you lost?"  Here we get to the true evil of cults. After the violence and coercion, get everyone to express positive feelings about their torment and how it was deep and meaningful.quote:"Your extraordinary achievement in my class deserves an extraordinary reward, Harry Potter. Please accept it with my compliments on behalf of my House, and remember from this day forward that not all Slytherins are alike. There are Slytherins, and then there are Slytherins." Professor Quirrell was smiling quite broadly as he said this. "Fifty-one points to Ravenclaw." Even when she's not in the room, we can't forget to take a big dump on McGonagall. Undermining traditional authority and promising great rewards if you obey, welcome to the cult of Quirrellmort, praise be to Slytherin. Harry gets a break and some snacks, and the rest of the class somehow still has enough class time to learn basic shields. Added Space fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Dec 29, 2016 07:26
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stone cold posted:How racist does the kung fu section get, and how Orientalist is his depiction of the 'Far East'? I'm the one who added 'kung fu'. His reference is "I learned how to lose in a dojo in Asia, which, as any Muggle knows, is where all the good martial artists live." The word 'dojo' does originate from China, but only seems to mean 'martial arts training facility' in Japan. I actually mentally edited out the second half of that sentence or else I should have included it on the first pass. Added Space fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Dec 29, 2016 |
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Dec 29, 2016 13:29
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Chapter 20: Bayes's Theorem This chapter consists almost entirely of 'clever' dialogue between Quirrellmort and Harriezer. Given that Yud seems to have religious reverence for Bayes, I can only assume that this sort of somewhat intelligent wordplay is a favorite topic in his writing. Harry is still on break after last chapter and seems to still be on an emotional high. quote:Funny how Harry's brain just seemed to keep on running and running, never shutting down no matter how tired it got. It got stupider but it refused to switch off. I'm going to be charitable and say that this is a good example of actual manipulation in practice. Quirrell is toying with Harry's emotions to earn his trust, and we'll see that manipulation pay huge dividends in later chapters. You can say from a reader's perspective that this is incredibly obvious and evil, but intelligent people in the real world do fall for these kind of techniques with depressing frequency. In relation to Bayes, you could say that Harry lacked the correct priors to evaluate Quirrell's story. If you knew that he was also Voldemort the pattern of vengeance and knowledge hoarding would be clear. Harry is looking for validation that he is not evil, which Quirrell does not want to provide. Being happy and forgiving his tormentors after enduring a beating is too abnormal to be anything but an act, Quirrell claims. He approves of Harry wanting to win approval and gain power, but he should at least be honest with himself. Harryiezer has a different explanation. quote:"Actually, I think I know what's confusing you here," Harry said. "That was what I wanted to talk to you about, in fact. Professor Quirrell, I think that what you're seeing is my mysterious dark side." Quirrellmort is only slightly surprised to have a student tell him of their barely restrained schizophrenia and resolves that the best solution is to train these murderous impulses. Obviously, Harry is really a Slytherin who secretly wants to a dark lord. The hat's prank must have been Dumbledore interfering. Here, it's Quirrell's turn to be missing information and come to a wrong conclusion. quote:"The Sorting Hat did seem to think I was going to end up as a Dark Lord unless I went to Hufflepuff," Harry said. "But I don't want to be one." That's a fairly decent replacement for the "There is only power, and those too weak to seek it" line. Quirrellmort thinks Harriezer is operating on a naive, authoritarian morality. Harriezer accuses the professor of naked egocentrism while taking a dig at Ayn Rand. Harry holds up both sets of his parents as good people who would be betrayed if he turned to evil. quote:"In any case, Mr. Potter, you have not answered my original question," said Professor Quirrell finally. "What is your ambition?" In the course of one conversation Harry has openly announced he has an evil side he can't control and a god complex. He doesn't even have the excuse of being a teenager. This is a massively mentally unstable child. Hey Harriezer, what are the priors on people who openly announce they want to obtain ultimate power? I'm guessing they are not very favorable. This only underlines the lead's self-serving hypocrisy. Quirrell hates scientists for creating the means of mass destruction and then telling other people. Dangerous knowledge should be kept secret. quote:"Yes, nuclear weapons!" Professor Quirrell was almost shouting now. "Even He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named never used those, perhaps because he didn't want to rule over a heap of ash! They never should have been made! And it will only get worse with time!" Professor Quirrell was standing up straight instead of leaning on his desk. "There are gates you do not open, there are seals you do not breach! The fools who can't resist meddling are killed by the lesser perils early on, and the survivors all know that there are secrets you do not share with anyone who lacks the intelligence and the discipline to discover them for themselves! Every powerful wizard knows that! Even the most terrible Dark Wizards know that! And those idiot Muggles can't seem to figure it out! The eager little fools who discovered the secret of nuclear weapons didn't keep it to themselves, they told their fool politicians and now we must live under the constant threat of annihilation!" This represents a critical misunderstanding of how the scientific process operates. The time of individuals making significant new discoveries on their own has been over for centuries. This 'secret club' mentality would bring the discovery rate of those who followed it to a grinding halt, which would quickly make them irrelevant. This is also the central theme of this entire work. Hand over agency to people who know more than you because they can make better decisions than you can. Dumb sheeple who raise their voices are only wasting the time of the philosopher-kings and endangering themselves. The only difference between Harriezer and Quirrellmort is that Harry is collectivist and Voldemort is individualist. Since they're meant to be foils of each other, this means the central conflict can be phrased as the question 'Should I care about the stupid, annoying meat sacks around me?' Harry's uplifting response can be paraphrased as "Yes, because amid all this dross there's a few flakes of gold and that's what really matters." This sort of conflict has been present in many great works of literature, including Harry Potter. Although not openly addressed, the question of why Harry is standing up for such a corrupt society looms large over Deathly Hallows. However, the answer is certainly not the paternalistic, misanthropic bilge that HPMOR advocates. Quirrell does calm down a bit and announces that he approves of space travel so that wizards can get away from the rest of humanity. This is the plot of the harem/fighting anime Negima. I'm not sure if this is a reference, or just coincidence since that story also borrows from Harry Potter. He even has a space-viewing spell he likes to cast. quote:Harry stood on a small circle of white marble in the midst of an endless field of stars, burning terribly bright and unwavering. There was no Earth, no Moon, no Sun that Harry recognized. Professor Quirrell stood in the same place as before, floating in the midst of the starfield. The Milky Way was already visible as a great wash of light and it grew brighter as Harry's vision adjusted to the darkness. I know people have all sorts of weird religious experiences, which can include looking up at the night sky, but this degree of reverence seems odd. I'm struck with an image of Harriezer at a young age nearly passing out at a planetarium on a school field trip and then biting his teacher when told it was time to leave. Then again, maybe it's fitting that Harry's greatest moment of joy is being isolated far away from people he doesn't respect (nearly everyone). The thought of this prick trapped in deep space brings me a little joy too. This is interrupted when Dumbledore busts in demanding to know why a professor organized a public beating of a minor. Harry and Quirrell are quick to defend the act since it all worked out. This is evidenced by Harry being able to hold his tongue after a stern warning to be respectful. Wonders never cease. quote:Professor Quirrell nodded. "He wasn't expecting (51 house points), but it seemed appropriate. Tell Professor McGonagall that I think the story of what Mr. Potter went through to earn back the lost points will do just as well to make her point. No, Headmaster, Mr. Potter didn't tell me anything. It's easy to see which part of today's events are her work," God drat, do you really need to insult McGonagall again? Can anyone tell me why the author has a vendetta against this character? She's been nothing but reasonable. Dumbledore does a quick bit of mind reading to double check that Harriezer hasn't been whammied, and Quirrellmort takes the opportunity to call this out as a dick move. quote:"You have now made it more difficult to confirm his mental privacy on future occasions," Dumbledore said. He favored Professor Quirrell with a cold look. "Was that your intention, I wonder?" Continuity! "The events of this morning" were Harry getting into a fight with Snape and being called to the Headmaster's office. I don't know how that creates a need for Harry to be able to keep secrets. Harriezer's stupid and unworkable plans to overthrow wizarding society are a slightly better justification, but not by much. I'm not even sure why Quirrelmort wants this since he eventually wants Harriezer dead. I suppose he wants to milk any discoveries Harriezer makes this year without Dumbledore getting them as well, but this only makes it harder for him to get that information. This entire plot development makes no sense. Perhaps it's only a gambit to earn more trust since Harriezer announces Quirrell as his mentor. Dumbledore mentions the Defense position curse, but that is quickly waved off. Dumbledore leaves and they go back to discussing space. quote:"I subscribe to a Muggle bulletin which keeps me informed of progress on space travel. I didn't hear about Pioneer 10 until they reported its launch. But when I discovered that Pioneer 11 would also be leaving the Solar System forever," Professor Quirrell said, his grin the widest that Harry had yet seen from him, "I snuck into NASA, I did, and I cast a lovely little spell on that lovely golden plaque which will make it last a lot longer than it otherwise would." Estimates say that Pioneer's golden plaque and Voyager's golden record will last between one million and one billion years. How the hell would you determine that magic would increase that number? This is a great opportunity to expand on the 'scientific investigation of magic' promise of the story, but this gets completely ignored. Harry is far too starstruck to question this and rains compliments on Quirrell. quote:A further thought occurred to Harry. "You didn't add any extra information to the plaque, did you?" I'm totally not a murderer, kid.  This highlights a major problem with the writing. The author has slipped him a note about what a Horcrux is, so Harriezer comes up with the idea out of the pure blue sky. He eventually finds out about the nature of Horcruxes. As an exercise, try to guess how long it takes him to demonstrate intelligence by combining this insight with that information and realize that Quirrellmort is a psychopathic killer. Harry drops a few more compliments and then leaves, ending the chapter. Added Space fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Dec 29, 2016 23:14
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Red Mike posted:It's meant to be the cliche of "you want what, but that's insane! <second character does thing that makes it obvious why thing is preferred> ..ah." but it falls flat because the two bits are too far apart to make a proper gag, and the second bit isn't telegraphed enough. I get the part about forbidden knowledge, but why does Quirrell care? He has to know Harry's plans are unworkable, if for no other reason than he's already exploited them to the maximum feasible extent. I'm summarizing blocks of text in order to avoid the whole line-by-line quagmire that drove off the OP.
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Dec 29, 2016 23:53
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Chapter 21: Rationalization This chapter is intended as a wrap up of the first twenty chapters and the first week at Hogwarts. As with the rest of the fic this goes on for far too long. We start with Hermoine, who we really haven't seen for a while. HPMOR posted:Hermione Granger had worried she was turning Bad. ... OK, this isn't TOO bad. Her moral philosophy really isn't any less sophisticated then Harriezer; he just uses a lot more psychobabble. She's smart, competitive, straightlaced, and she's got moral awareness. Her thoughts are a bit simplistic, but she's eleven. I'm approving of this Hermione and her entirely correct desire to show up that jerk. She marinates a bit more before coming to a conclusion. quote:She and Harry were getting into a Romance! Of course! Everyone knew what it meant when a boy and a girl started fighting all the time. They were courting one another! There was nothing Bad about that. Danger! DANGER! In case you've forgotten, Harry and Hermoine made a bet on the Hogwarts Express that Harry could read more books in a week, and that bet is coming due. quote:Ten seconds left, and he still hadn't raised his hand. You go Hermione! Teach that little poo poo a lesson! Harry even thinks about how he used his Time Turner to cheat and he still lost, thus proving that he has listened to no-one else this whole time. quote:"Someday," said the Boy-Who-Lived, "when the distant descendants of Homo sapiens are looking back over the history of the galaxy and wondering how it all went so wrong, they will conclude that the original mistake was when someone taught Hermione Granger how to read."  The happy trail of misogyny just keeps rollin' along. No wonder JWKS was forced to stop, this poo poo just keeps getting worse.The rest of the Ravenclaw girls team up to demand a forfeit for losing the bet. Scene change to the dungeons three hours later, where Harry is meeting up with Draco. quote:"I want you to know, Draco Malfoy," said the silhouette in tones of deadly calm, "that I do not blame you for my recent defeat." Some credit, Yud can sneak in foreshadowing in nonobvious ways. "The news had spread faster than owls could have carried it" is literally true, and it will become a plot point later. It's nicely buried in the humor here so you don't think about it too much. quote:"Spread the word in Slytherin that the Granger girl is mine and anyone who meddles in my affairs will have their remains scattered over an area wide enough to include twelve different spoken languages. And since I am not in Gryffindor and I use cunning rather than immediate frontal attacks, they should not panic if I am seen smiling at her." If you can bring yourself to ignore the one little poo poo nugget about not teaching women to read (and to be fair, you're reading fanfiction, your standards are not that high) this first act of the chapter works fairly well as a light comedy and character piece. The second act is also comedy, but not quite for the same reasons. Harriezer and Draco have decided to follow Quirrellmort's advice and start their own Secret Club of Magical Science. quote:"I offer you power," said the shadowy figure, "and I will tell you of that power and its price. The power comes from knowing the shape of reality and so gaining control over it. What you understand, you can command, and that is power enough to walk upon the Moon. The price of that power is that you must learn to ask questions of Nature, and far more difficult, accept Nature's answers. You will do experiments, perform tests and see what happens. And you must accept the meaning of those results when they tell you that you are mistaken. You will have to learn how to lose, not to me, but to Nature. When you find yourself arguing with reality, you will have to let reality win. You will find this painful, Draco Malfoy, and I do not know if you are strong in that way. Knowing the price, is it still your wish to learn the human power?" I tend to agree. One of my personal peeves is people who can't tell the difference between fact and opinion. Harriezer starts offering study courses. The first is about psychology and I can only presume that course is the titular Methods of Rationality. On the one hand, thank loving god that we won't have to sit through them. On the other hand, that's the name of the fic and the author should have committed to the premise if that's what he really wants to talk about. The second course is physics, which even Harriezer realizes is pointless because Draco doesn't know calculus. The third course is genetics, and that's a winner for blood purist Draco. quote:The figure nodded. "I thought you might say as much. But I think it will be the most painful path for you, Draco. What if your family and friends, the blood purists, say one thing, and you find that the experimental test says another?" It's not like either side is wrong. As we see from the modern climate change debate, political truths are far removed from anything as banal as data.Draco and Harriezer have a back and forth about trusting experiments and whether Harry is going to lie, but eventually Draco caves. quote:"Excellent," said the figure, and smiled. "Congratulations on being willing to ask the question." As long as it's one of those bossy, mean girls.  Draco asks if they can just skip to what's already known, but Harriezer invokes the fear of dangerous secrets and tells Draco he has to prove himself by running some experiments on his own first. Second order of business for Secret Science Club, better costumes. quote:"We're going to need better robes," said the shadowy figure, "with hoods and so on -" Isn't that the name of Yud's not-a-cult? There's some serious mixed messages here. Do you want to create a science cult that keeps its findings secret, or do you want to uplift the unwashed masses through Rationality? Do you only want to do the latter until the former becomes an option? What are you trying to accomplish, Mr. Yudkowsky? There's an interlude where Harry returns to his dorm room and finds a present. quote:This revealed a note, two golden Galleons, and a book titled Occlumency: The Hidden Arte. I don't think it's ever fully revealed who sent this note. It might be Dumbledore, who does a lot of of seemingly random things for reasons that are explained later. It may be Peter Pettigrew, who in this fic has swapped roles with Sirius Black for no real reason. Harry himself realizes the pointlessness of this scene and falls asleep. The next morning in the Great Hall, Harriezer is wary of the Weasley twins approaching, but they're just giving him a cake with twelve candles for some reason. quote:"That's not right," said someone. "Harry Potter was born on the thirty-first of Jul-" The prophecy is totally about Harry and his stupid little club. Harry jumps to the next conclusion, Voldemort. We the reader know he's already there too, so that's just a mystery for now. The chapter ends with Harry considering what to write home about. quote:Harry stared down at the blank sheet of paper. Let's see... As usual, this writing needs to be ruthlessly cut down by a chainsaw-wielding editor, but this is certainly one of the better chapters. Comedy, childish intrigue, and a fresh mystery. Added Space fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2016 04:58
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Chapter 22: The Scientific Method This chapter has a 'Start of Book 2' vibe to it. It opens with a Dramatis Personae, foreword and title section; none of which are interesting. The story then finally delivers on one of its basic premises; a scientific look at magic. This section is generally considered to be the best by reviewers, and so I will quote it in its entirety. HPMOR posted:A small study room, near but not in the Ravenclaw dorm, one of the many many unused rooms of Hogwarts. Gray stone the floors, red brick the walls, dark stained wood the ceiling, four glowing glass globes set into the four walls of the room. A circular table that looked like a wide slab of black marble set on thick black marble legs for columns, but which had proved to be very light (weight and mass both) and wasn't difficult to pick up and move around if necessary. Two comfortably cushioned chairs which had seemed at first to be locked to the floor in inconvenient places, but which would, the two of them had finally discovered, scoot around to where you stood as soon as you leaned over in a posture that looked like you were about to sit down. Starting by citing foreigners and Jews as superior students is not exactly promising, but at this point we just have to accept our main character has some socially inappropriate beliefs. We get a decent scientific protocol, a surprising result, and a lesson in humility. The chemistry between these two characters is great. However, we can also see the problem. Harry's intuition was wrong and people he doesn't like were right. This causes him to completely lose his poo poo, scream, and bang his head like a child with conduct disorder. Later in this same chapter Harry himself recites something he calls the Litany of Tarski. Paraphasing: "If X is true, I want to believe X. If X is not true, I want not to believe X. Let me not become attached to beliefs I may not want." He says that to Draco without a moment of hesitation, but when it's Harry's beliefs that are on the line he can't handle himself. From now on, the author will spare Harriezer from this torment by making every intuition instantly correct. All science from this point on is abandoned in favor of the Aristotelian "A smart guy said so, therefore it's true." The second half of this chapter is a long meeting between Harry and Draco's secret club. Draco still suggests the brilliant solution of "Beat up Hermione" to play to the Slytherin cheap seats, but Harry wants to take the higher road. quote:"What do you care what other people think? Are you really going to live your life needing to explain everything you do to the dumbest idiots in Slytherin, letting them judge you? I'm sorry, Draco, but I'm not lowering my cunning plots to the level of what the dumbest Slytherins can understand, just because it might make you look bad otherwise. Not even your friendship is worth that. It would take all the fun out of life. Tell me you haven't ever thought the same thing when someone in Slytherin is being too stupid to breathe, that it's beneath the dignity of a Malfoy to have to pander to them." They yell at each other for a bit, but Harry eventually acknowledges that Draco has a point and they can't be seen as too closely aligned for now. Rita Skeeter gets name checked, but nothing will ever come of that. Next, Harry comes up with an absurd plan to teach Draco about falsifiablity and competing hypotheses using blood purity as the subject. quote:Harry Potter had then gone into further and considerable detail: Draco was to pretend to be a Death Eater who was posing as the editor of a scientific journal, Dr. Malfoy, who wanted to reject his enemy Dr. Potter's paper "On the Heritability of Magical Ability", and if the Death Eater didn't act like a real scientist would, he would be revealed as a Death Eater and executed, while Dr. Malfoy was also being watched by his own rivals and needed to appear to reject Dr. Potter's paper for neutral scientific reasons or he would lose his position as journal editor. There's a lot of padding before we actually get to the point. quote:On the Heritability of Magical Ability This WOULD be a good moment, if it weren't immediately undercut. What Harry is actually doing is trying to distract Draco and slip in his own hypothesis in a way that Draco won't nitpick. He adds three more ideas on top of blood purism and fading magic, then wordily rules out two of them. It's not mentioned in this chapter, but the idea he slips in can be summarized as a Mendelian wizard gene. Between Harry and Draco's conjectures, take your own guess which one is right. Harry will check out the "Magic is fading" hypothesis by asking teachers and ghosts if spells are getting harder to cast. Draco is tasked with collecting family records of Squibs to check the genetic hypothesis. With Harry shoving Draco out the door, the chapter ends. Added Space fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Jan 2, 2017 |
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Jan 2, 2017 09:56
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Tiggum posted:It's interesting that Harry doesn't seem to consider what seems to me the most obvious solution to all his problems with accepting the existence of magic. He can't believe it works in the way it apparently does because he's assuming it's a product of the natural world. What if it's alien nanobots or something? If it's designed then it can work however the designer wanted it to. "The universe" doesn't care how you say "wingardium leviosa", but for some reason this ancient meddling alien really did/does. Unless you can demonstrate these aliens or nanobots, that's not really a solution to the mystery. It's an appeal to an unsolvable mystery, not really any better than attributing magic to a god. I think the best anyone can do is say that Atlantis somehow produced magic. Atlantis was comprehensively destroyed so no-one can say what the exact process was. NihilCredo posted:Added Space, could you please paste a link to the chapter being reviewed at the start of the post? This way those who want to check out the abridged parts can do it quickly. Done, chapter titles are now links that chapter on the author's website. I'm using that since ff.net has a script to make copy/paste difficult.
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Jan 2, 2017 18:55
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Chapter 23: Belief in Belief I personally like some of the ideas brought up in this chapter. "Belief in belief" could be rephrased as having inauthentic beliefs. I remember when I was working in a high school in 2012, when so many students told me that they absolutely believed the 'end of the world' nonsense. I asked them why were still in school and not engaging in reckless indulgence, and all I got was blank looks. At the same time I saw on a reality TV show a family that had taken out long-term loans and gone on several vacations. That family had an authentic belief; those dumb teenagers did not. Even if I thought that family was wrong, I could at least somewhat respect their authenticity. Harry and Draco reconvene with the results of their research. Mostly people are using the same spells as they did centuries ago, but there's a snag. HPMOR posted:Harry Potter's fist struck a desk, hard. "drat it. All right. My own experiment was a failure, Draco. There's something called the Interdict of Merlin -" I remember reading, possibly in this very thread, that someone thought the Interdict of Merlin was canon to Harry Potter and was upset when they found out it was Yud's invention. I didn't understand their anger. To me this is why I love fanfiction, when some other writer can seamlessly inject their own concepts into an existing work and thereby expand the story. Something like the Interdict explains neatly why there is a positive correlation between the age of an artifact and its power in the Harry Potter books. If Yudkowsky had chosen to do this more often instead of deriding the original concepts this would have been a much better work. Harry interjects with an explanation of Mendelian genetics and predicts that one-fourth the children of two squibs will be full wizards. Sure enough, six of twenty-eight were. Wizard Gene Confirmed. quote:"What now?" Draco whispered. Mind Flayers were wiped out by Harold Shea (a reference to a classic sci-fi series), but otherwise the same creatures are around. quote:... So when you add it all up, it looks like knowledge is being lost." We're expected to believe that Draco is experiencing something akin to an unwanted religious conversion to the glorious cause of Science. I've heard of people being convinced by science, I've heard of people undergoing conversion, but I have never heard of a situation like this. This is more like something out of Lovecraft than anything to do with social psychology. Harriezer offers to test Hermione's parents to confirm she's the true child of muggles and Draco weasels. The chapter title comes in as Harry calls him on being inauthentic, and how he is now inescapably a True Scientist. Draco freaks out about how he'll have to go back and live among extremists now that he no longer believes in the root of their cause. Harriezer should have warned him more. Draco sensibly blames the prick, and a little less sensibly resorts to violence. quote:"Expelliarmus! " Harry manages to get out the magical first aid kit he bought and hits himself with painkillers, although he only has a half-hour's worth. Points for cleverness there. quote:Harry pulled himself to his feet. Umm... Harriezer, the only 'losing' you did was allowing your friend to hit you with a possibly fatal spell. That doesn't help with redemption. Quirrell also reminded you that a scientific mindset was no protection from performing dangerous and immoral acts. Merlin's beard, even when you like an adult you still can't learn poo poo from them. quote:Draco wished it were Pansy screaming. That would have felt better. See? See? Then again, this is Harriezer we're talking about, he might approve. Draco has run off to have a cry while Harry tries in vain to get through the door. Facing hours of torture and possible death, Harriezer is finally faced with the last, terrible resort of listening to McGonagal's advice. He checks the time and resolves to discreetly use his Time Turner to tell a teacher. Minutes later Professor Flitwick opens the door. Added Space fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Jan 4, 2017 |
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Jan 4, 2017 08:41
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i81icu812 posted:Yeah, I'm also having a hard time following this with the amount of text skipped, as much as I appreciate this coming back from the dead. It's not like the stuff I'm skipping is clear. Most of it is long winded, nonsensical, or keeps repeating things that have already been said. I could honestly summarize the entire next chapter as "Harry and Draco try to out- each other" and you won't have lost much.However, if the thread thinks I should include everything I will.
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Jan 4, 2017 13:28
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Thanks, guys. Harry Potter and Gregor Mendel Yudkowsky often incorporates real experiments and science into his work. Some is accurate, some is unproven, and some is wrong. Today we're going back to middle school and investigating genetics. Harry explains the concept of Mendelian inheritance and Punnett squares. HPMOR posted:"The secret of blood," said Harry Potter, an intense look on his face, "is something called deoxyribonucleic acid. You don't say that name in front of anyone who's not a scientist. Deoxyribonucleic acid is the recipe that tells your body how to grow, two legs, two arms, short or tall, whether you have brown eyes or green. It's a material thing, you can see it if you have microscopes, which are like telescopes only they look at things that are very small instead of very far away. And that recipe has two copies of everything, always, in case one copy is broken. Imagine two long rows of pieces of paper. At each place in the row, there are two pieces of paper, and when you have children, your body selects one piece of paper at random from each place in the row, and the mother's body will do the same, and so the child also gets two pieces of paper at each place in the row. Two copies of everything, one from your mother, one from your father, and when you have children they get one piece of paper from you at random in each place." What Harry is proposing is something like this:  Where w is the wizard gene. People with ww are wizards, rw are squibs, and rr are muggles. This would imply that Hermione's parents are also squibs but this is never followed up on. Draco would propose something more like - code:I can spot one error in his explanation. Height is not just genetic, it's also epigeentic. Things like disease and diet can change the expression of genes in gametes, leading to an offspring that's notably different then either parent. This explains why two five-foot immigrants from a long line of five-foot people can have a six-foot son. The change in genetic expression would be due to changes in their environment from their move. To be fair, this epigenetic discovery may have happened after this fic was written. The author himself noted that there are other genetic factors beyond a simple presence of a gene that could cause a similar outcome. I'm not sure why Draco is freaking out so much since the Wizard Gene hypothesis can be adapted to blood purism with a bit of tweaking. It would suggest things like wizards should only reproduce with wizards and squibs only with squibs. Pureblood families could still hold themselves as superior for having no squibs in their line. There could even be a dramatic proposal to screen the muggle population for squibs and pair them off to squeeze out more wizards. Apply the smallest amount of spin and this could be a real boost for blood purism. Added Space fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Jan 5, 2017 |
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Jan 5, 2017 00:52
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i81icu812 posted:The biggest problem is that if the magic gene is recessive then squibs are impossible for two magical parents. This implication should be important and and obvious but is never addressed. Not impossible. There could still be things like duplication errors that could 'break' one copy of the wizard gene. The rate would be fairly low but still detectable over a wizarding population in the tens or hundreds of thousands. It's not out of question that squibs married into the muggle population and passed down their wizard gene. There are a bit less then 700,000 births in the UK every year, and only single digits of muggleborns. I'm not a statistician but I'd guess that's actually low.
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Jan 5, 2017 02:09
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Chapter 24: Machiavellian Intelligence Hypothesis aka MAXIMUM The next morning, Draco is nervously sitting in the Great Hall. quote:Harry Potter came into sight. His face was carefully neutral, but his blue-trimmed robes looked oddly askew, as if they hadn't been put on quite right - Harry covers for Draco and Dumbledore covers for Harry, but Harry makes it clear that this is the only time he can wave off torture. quote:Father had warned Draco against people like this, people who could ruin you and still be so likable that it was hard to hate them properly. Umm... is Harriezer's babbling supposed to be likable? Is there any evidence that anyone besides the Weasley twins actually likes him? quote:"Why... didn't you?" I don't know, I can believe Harriezer is that dumb. I know that pointing the finger wouldn't push either Malfroy out from the table considering what Lucius could talk his way out of. However, it would give them a serious black eye. They're already your committed enemies. It's not like Lucius would be baited into drastic, obvious action based on this provocation. Not taking this opportunity and insisting on a ridiculous gamble of secular conversion only makes Harry's situation worse. This would be fine for a tragic work, but not one where your main character eventually becomes an immortal wizard prince. quote:But then Draco didn't understand what else Harry could be trying. I thought I abused commas. When did Harry ever sound angry? Harry makes his pitch that knowing the truth is in Draco's best interest, but Draco still has doubts. quote:"What was your plan?" The "Rule of Three" here has gotten traction in the fanfiction community. I see it pop up from time to time. Yudkowsky does have some clever ideas when he's not going on about subjects he barely understands. When confronted with Harry's latest round of insanity, Draco resolves to smile, nod, and keep a hidden knife ready. quote:"I know that I've abused our friendship terribly," Harry said finally. "But please realize, Draco, that in the end, I just wanted the two of us to find the truth together. Is that something you can forgive?" Not really? By not turning you in right away Harry has pretty much whiffed on his best opportunity. Get your father to buy you a new wand and you're in the clear. Harry asks for some money and Draco agrees to loan him some. They decide they can't take in new members to their secret club. quote:"Because I don't know enough science," Draco said, carefully keeping his voice neutral. Harry will worry about the nonsense psychobabble, and Draco is in charge of the people. How is it that Harriezer has read deep psychological studies but never heard of Mao or Stalin? Draco plans for the inevitable backstab. quote:...unless all that was exactly what Harry wanted Draco to do as part of some even larger plot which Draco would play right into by trying to foil this one, Harry might even know that his plan was unworkable, it might have no purpose except luring Draco to thwart it - And now we have to imagine Lucius as a secret animation nerd. Harriezer, in the mean time, is smirking to himself about how insufferably clever all this is. quote:{B}eside Draco, Harry walked along with a smile on his face, thinking about the evolutionary origins of human intelligence. This bit of "science" doesn't warrant a separate examination, since evolutionary psychology is unverifiable conjecture at best.
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Jan 5, 2017 06:21
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Liquid Communism posted:I can't believe you let this blatantly racist poo poo fly under the radar. Added Space posted:Starting by citing foreigners and Jews as superior students is not exactly promising, but at this point we just have to accept our main character has some socially inappropriate beliefs. Looks like someone has a case of selective reading bias.  It's already been established that this character is a mild racist, I'm not going to flip out every time he says something a little stupid.
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Jan 5, 2017 20:05
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Chapter 25: Hold Off on Proposing SolutionsHPMOR posted:Note: Since the science in this story is usually all correct, I include a warning that in Ch. 22-25 Harry overlooks many possibilities, the most important of which is that there are lots of magical genes but they're all on one chromosome (which wouldn't happen naturally, but the chromosome might have been engineered). In this case, the inheritance pattern would be Mendelian, but the magical chromosome could still be degraded by chromosomal crossover with its nonmagical homologue. (Harry has read about Mendel and chromosomes in science history books, but he hasn't studied enough actual genetics to know about chromosomal crossover. Hey, he's only eleven.) However, although a modern science journal would find a lot more nits to pick, everything Harry presents as strong evidence is in fact strong evidence - the other possibilities are improbable. Welp. Make of that what you will. Anyone want to fact check this one? For some reason this chapter is split up into "Acts" that are listed in random order. Last chapter was Act 3. gently caress this postmodern, out of place nonsense, I'm listing them in order. Act 1: quote:"A reason? " said the old wizard. He restrained the fury from his face. The boy before him had been the victim, and certainly did not need to be frightened any further. "There is nothing that can excuse -" I am moderately curious what Harry thinks 'redeem' means in this context. There's nothing suggesting he wants Draco to be more moral or ethical. Act 2: Harry is contemplating genetics and his Wizard Gene hypothesis. quote:Magic came from somewhere else. That question seems perilously close to affirming the consequent. Harry is falling into the trap he warned Hermione about on the train, where he's so in favor of his pet theory that he's looking only for things that confirm it. quote:And yet magic itself seemed pretty complicated. A door-locking spell would prevent the door from opening and prevent you from Transfiguring the hinges and resist Finite Incantatem and Alohomora. Many elements all pointing in the same direction: you could call that goal-orientation, or in simpler language, purposefulness.  Or rather, Atlantis. They must have made the source of magic and programmed it to act the way that it did. quote:The chain of logic was inexorable. Harriezer is overwhelmed by the scope of this problem and decides he should concentrate on immortality first. quote:"Excuse me," said an expected voice from behind him in very unexpected tones. "At your convenience, Mr. Malfoy requests the favor of a conversation." Never, EVER deny Harry the pleasure of reducing people to stereotypes. It's the only way he can relate to them. Act 3: Act 4: Harry meets with the Weasley twins to commission them for a prank. Lee Jordan shows himself as the smartest person we've seen so far by bailing immediately. The idea is to gaslight Rita Skeeter into writing a bad story to discredit her. To be fair, Harry has been in the magical world for less then a month and probably doesn't realize she's already a tabloid sensationalist. quote:"I can't think of anything," said George. Good advice and decent social psychology. However, the author should have picked a better subject. Fred and George are some of the most elaborate and creative planners in canon, and here they're just tossed under the Knight Bus to give Harriezer yet another chance to exposit at the audience. Harry gives them the stack of money he got from Draco and tells them not to involve Quirrell. They immediately decide to start a hit piece of Quirrell and move on to planning what they'll do for Harry. Act 5: Fred and George are going to meet with their supplier, Mr. Ambrosius Flume, at Honeyduke's. quote:"Still on the fritz," said George. I have no clue what they're talking about. Act 6: Rita Skeeter has published her hit piece on Quirrell and is on to the next scandal when she runs into the man himself in a dark alley. He demands she print a retraction but she tells him off. quote:Quirrell stared at her for a moment. FORESHADO yeah he's going to murder her and this entire plot thread goes nowhere. Added Space fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Jan 6, 2017 |
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Jan 6, 2017 06:05
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Chapter 26: Noticing Confusion Here's another subject that I find myself agreeing with. As I've grown in critical thinking, I've found that I've become less likely to immediately accept any explanation given. It's a good habit to question how sensible the things you hear and experience are. HPMOR posted:Professor Quirrell's office hours consisted of 11:40 to 11:55 AM on Thursday. That was for all of his students in all years. It cost a Quirrell point just to knock on the door, and if he didn't think your reason was worth his time, you would lose another fifty.  And Harry complained about Snape being a bad teacher? I guess this is neglectful instead of actively malicious, but still.Quirrell is in a bad mood and Harry offers to cheer him up. quote:"A sixth-year Gryffindor cast a curse at one of my more promising students, a sixth-year Slytherin." This is a reference to a scene in Half Blood Prince where Harry casts a spell he learned from Snape's old schoolbook without knowing what it does. This might undermine the whole idea of the Interdict of Merlin, but the interdict only prevents "powerful" magic from being written down and that's never defined. This act along with Hermione brewing polyjuice in the loo are called out as stupid in canon, so I don't know what the point of referencing them here is. quote:The inkwell caught fire in Professor Quirrell's hands and burned with a terrible slowness, hideous black-orange flames tearing at the metal and seeming to take tiny bites from it, the silver twisting as it melted, as though it were trying and failing to escape. There was a tinny shrieking sound, as though the metal were screaming. I think it's nice that these two horrible sociopaths have formed a bond. If nothing else they surely deserve each other. The real reason Harry came by is to schedule a man date on Sunday to look for Occlumency teachers. Sunday morning comes with everyone giggling about a story about Harry in the paper. He's his usual peevish self, shouting at everyone until he manages to snag a copy from a Diagon Alley bookstore. quote:The headline read: Quirrell comes by and makes a big scene about how shocking this story is and how it absolutely must be true. Harry just smirks and says he contracted the work to an unnamed student. I know this fic changes a lot of people, did he make Rita Skeeter a serious and hard nosed journalist and forget to mention it? Last we saw her she was chasing down a rumor about an auror dating her younger coworker, not exactly Pulitzer material.I'm going to be charitable again and say this is an example of the chapter theme and we the audience should be suspicious over how credulous Quirrell is being. quote:"I have a feeling," Harry said finally, "that we're coming at this from the wrong angle. There's a tale I once heard about some students who came into a physics class, and the teacher showed them a large metal plate near a fire. She ordered them to feel the metal plate, and they felt that the metal nearer the fire was cooler, and the metal further away was warmer. And she said, write down your guess for why this happens. So some students wrote down 'because of how the metal conducts heat', and some students wrote down 'because of how the air moves', and no one said 'this just seems impossible', and the real answer was that before the students came into the room, the teacher turned the plate around." You said 'they', Harry, and then confirmed his speculation with your reaction. This is like something out of a cartoon. Also, Harry, you said your number one priority was to investigate mental magic, you've read a book about Occlumency, and yet you haven't heard of memory charms or confundus yet? Rita Skeeter's memory represents a single point of failure that explains everything she wrote. Everything in this chapter is unlikely. I'm confused if this is a brilliant act of metanarrative or just coincidence. They head into Gringott's quote:The first part of the mission, to find an Occlumency instructor, had been a success. Professor Quirrell, smiling evilly, had told Griphook to recommend the best he knew, and not worry about the expense, since Dumbledore was paying it; and the goblin had smiled in return. There might have been a certain amount of smiling on Harry's part as well. Now, here's a better method of pointing out something silly in the books without seeming mean. Goblin banking practices are absolutely antiquated, and it impacts the original books. There's things like the Weasley twins not being able to get a business loan for their joke shop. The legal status of muggles is a constant point of contention. Maybe Yud blew all of his good ideas in the first few chapters and now has to rely on recycling them for decent content. Mary's room is a reference to a thought experiment. Raise Mary from birth in a black and white room while teaching her every academic fact about color and how it's perceived. Then, let her out of the room to experience color. The thought experiment argues for 'qualia', that there is a quality to perceptions aside from their factual content. The room is warded for privacy, but that's not enough for the paranoid Quirrellmort. quote:Professor Quirrell then spoke no fewer than four different Charms, none of which Harry recognized. He's not saying that for Harry's benefit. Quirrell goes all "good job son" about putting one over on Rita Skeeter, saying that she has no doubt disappointed Lucius Malfroy and will now have to flee the country. Once again Harry has acted with malicious intent and no thought at all about the consequences, and starts to get nervous once he's called out. quote:But she would get fired from her job, of course she would be fired, she might have children going through Hogwarts for all Harry knew, and now it was worse, much worse - We've got a Twilight situation on our hands. If the author would just acknowledge that their lead was a horrible, irresponsible person the story would be much more interesting. We'd have a great villain/minion moment here. What we end up with is something cultish and with pedophilic undertones. Quirrell wants to give Harry a stolen book, and Harry is reluctant to take it. quote:"What is it?" breathed Harry. This moment of weakness and the arrival of lunch is enough to soften Harry and he takes the book. quote:Harry opened the book with ingrained, instinctive care. The pages seemed too thick, with a texture unlike either Muggle paper or wizarding parchment. And the contents were... It took rereading this chapter right now for me to realize that this was intended to be a plot twist. We were supposed to think he was offering up the horcrux from Chamber of Secrets. This explains why Harry never seems to read this very cool sounding book and the story completely forgets about it. In a bit of mirroring, we see Quirrelmort making another horcrux using Skeeter's death. Skeeter's murder is telegraphed very well. She was investigating Mary's Room when she ran into Quirrell last chapter; no doubt he was the one who tipped her off to it. He used an ambiguous phrase to signal how she would die. Her animagus form is referenced in the chapter to remind the audience. We see a smooth villain getting away with murder in style, and his young victim being none the wiser. Harry is really dropping the ball, showing that that he can't demonstrate intelligence by putting facts together. He can only succeed when the author passes him notes. Added Space fucked around with this message at 07:49 on Jan 7, 2017 |
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Jan 7, 2017 05:30
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Chapter 27: Empathy I think I'm done complimenting this fic for a while. This chapter starts many insufferable plot arcs that last for a long drat time. In the chapter opening Harry is asking the twins how they pulled off their prank. They refuse to answer him, then remind each other that they got memory wiped. They also don't make the obvious leap that someone altered Skeeter's memories. HPMOR posted:Unsurprisingly, Rita Skeeter and the editor of the Daily Prophet had both vanished and were probably in another country by now. They would've liked to be able to tell their family about that part. Dad would have congratulated them, they thought, after Mum had finished killing them and Ginny had burned the remains. This is a densely concentrated ball of stupid. I'm excusing Dumbledore, who has good reasons for everything he does. Otherwise, I count seven idiots committing an uncountable number of inexplicable actions. You could play along and count for yourself, but that would raise the total to eight idiots. We then have a hard scene transition to Harry's Occlumency lessons. quote:A human mind, Harry's Occlumency book had said, was only exposed to a Legilimens along certain surfaces. If you failed to defend your surfaces, the Legilimens would go through and be able to access any part of you which their own mind was able to comprehend... I've only had entry level psychological training, but this certainly sounds like bullshit. If people were only capable of guessing what other people would do based on their own reactions, social manipulators would not get very far at all. quote:And then Harry turned into someone else entirely, someone who had seemed appropriate to the occasion. Aww, Harry thought he wasn't stupidly overconfident this time. That's almost cute. More padding and another hard scene change back to Hogwarts. Harriezer is salty due to Quidditch scores being added to the house cup run. quote:"We should kill them," Harry said to Hermione, who was walking beside him with an equally offended air. I like the Hermione who has dedicated herself to hanging out with Harriezer and endlessly trolling him. quote:"I don't suppose you could explain," Severus said dryly, "why the two of you were plotting to murder Cho Chang?" He's actually showing respect for someone, and all it took was a offhand comment that "people like sports"? This whole "I know you know I know" nonsense is like the video game logic version of social interaction. Harry even thinks of it in terms of "levels". Quoting from later in this chapter: quote:(Professor Quirrell had remarked over their lunch that Harry really needed to conceal his state of mind better than putting on a blank face when someone discussed a dangerous topic, and had explained about one-level deceptions, two-level deceptions, and so on. So either Severus was in fact modeling Harry as a one-level player, which made Severus himself two-level, and Harry's three-level move had been successful; or Severus was a four-level player and wanted Harry to think the deception had been successful. Harry, smiling, had asked Professor Quirrell what level he played at, and Professor Quirrell, also smiling, had responded, One level higher than you.) It is physically painful to watch these idiots natter at each other. Snape pulls Harry aside and dangles another chance to gently caress up. quote:Severus was watching Harry intently. "You said once in the Headmaster's office that you would not tolerate bullying or abuse. And so I wonder, Harry Potter. Just how much do you resemble your father?" Lesath is the son of Bellatrix, and the Gryffindors are dumb jocks. Snape gives Harry a time and place and we go there to see Lesath dangling out a window. Someone goes to help him - and it turns out to be Neville, who Harry has decided to involve as another misguided attempt to 'fix' him. The bullies are not impressed. quote:"I think he's a traitor," said one of the other Gryffindors, and there was a sudden sinking sensation in Neville's stomach. I've been bullied, I've seen other bullied, and I've had to deal with bullies as a teacher. None of them sounded even remotely like this. Bullies are a complex topic, but they are rarely morally zealous crusaders who will attack anyone who questions them. If nothing else people are lazy and will generally back off if someone calls them on their actions. We've swapped genres from mystery to revenge. Harry Potter vs All The Dumb Bullies is a plot cancer that goes nowhere and results in no-one learning any sort of moral lesson. Neville does a bit of stage acting to "summon" Harry who was waiting in the wings. quote:"Ahem," said Harry Potter from behind them, leaning against the wall by the window, in the dead end of the hallway, where nobody could possibly have gotten to without being seen. This is sort of a good point. Harry and Neville both grew up without their biological parents and have some amount of moral authority here. Of course, they're going to completely ignore that and resolve this through threats. quote:"So Lessy snarked to you," said the ringleader coldly. You mean narc, you idiot. "Snark" is a portmanteau of "snide remark" and Harriezer hasn't used snark any time in my memory. Harry bluffs and blusters until the bullies run off. He and Neville are happy, but Lesath isn't. quote:"You think you know how it is?" said Lesath, his voice high and shaking. "You think you know? My parents are in Azkaban, I try not to think about it and they always remind me, they think it's great that Mother is there in the cold and the dark with the Dementors sucking away her life, I wish I was like Harry Potter, at least his parents aren't hurting, my parents are always hurting, every second of every day, I wish I was like you, at least you can see your parents sometimes, at least you know they loved you, if Mother ever loved me the Dementors will have eaten that thought by now -" I... don't even know. Terrible staged incident that relies on Harry not knowing what humans sound like? The author not knowing what people sound like? This whole scene is absurd melodrama. Harry tries to explain all the stunts he pulled were staged, but Lesath gets pissed, insults him and runs off. quote:"He thought I could help him," Harry said, his voice hoarse. "He had hope for the first time in years." I'm convinced that Harriezer is against bullies out of jealousy. He wants to be the one with all the power to push people around and force them to do what he thinks is right and just. Snape rolls in and he and Harry engage in more 'clever' back and forth, until Snape poses a hypothetical. quote:"I should like to ask your advice about something," Severus said, his voice casual. "I know of another fifth-year Slytherin who was being bullied by Gryffindors. He was wooing a beautiful Muggleborn girl, who came across him being bullied, and tried to rescue him. And he called her a mudblood, and that was the end for them. He apologized, many times, but she never forgave him. Have you any thoughts for what he could have said or done, to win from her the forgiveness you gave Lestrange?" There's only one woman in the situation so clearly she's to blame! This is some PUA poo poo right here. "I insulted this bitch and she got all offended, she's so shallow." quote:"So," Harry said. "Did I pass your test, whatever it was?" Ha! Suck it, dumbass! Continue to not learn the simple lesson to not run your drat mouth. quote:"Your books betrayed you, Potter," said Severus, still in that voice stretched tight by a million tons of pull. "They did not tell you the one thing you needed to know. You cannot learn from stories what it is like to lose the one you love. That is something you could never understand without feeling it yourself." Harry, desperate to think about any other subject than improving his own annoying cocksure behavior, thinks about how his parents were jerks for a moment before settling on Azkaban. quote:Lesath would be imagining himself in his mother's place, in the cold and the darkness and the fear, alone with all of her worst memories, even in her dreams, every second of every day. Ok, I can appreciate that Harry wants to make a positive change in his world. Bullying is traumatic, and prisons are morally questionable for all sorts of reasons. However, with all his supposed knowledge of psychology and cleverness, the only solution he can think of is to gain overwhelming power and force everyone to do things his way. He's more morally reprehensible than anyone he's fighting; the only difference is that he doesn't yet have the power to commit the atrocities he wants to. Our Hero. Open question because I think it's interesting: Does Bellatrix LeStrange, a woman who tortured, murdered, and often both at once deserve a life sentence in Azkaban? A place of unending misery and slowly failing health? Added Space fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Jan 9, 2017 |
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Jan 9, 2017 06:49
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People familiar with this fic know large sections are derivative of Ender's Game, a classic novel about a child genius who is forced into military wargame training. What I recently realized is that the borrowing started last chapter. A major structural feature of Ender's Game is a group of completely psychotic and unreasonable bullies set against the protagonist for unclear reasons. This allows the protagonist to succeed through violent means while remaining sympathetic. Here's a link to a great essay on the subject. Creating the Innocent Killer Chapter 28: Reductionism HPMOR posted:"Okay," Harry said, swallowing. "Okay, Hermione, it's enough, you can stop." This plan is still stupid, but it's at least sweet. Harry is finally using his power to try to help others and do good in the world. Maybe he's learned some compassion and thought for others. quote:Earlier, Harry had very secretly - he hadn't even told Hermione - tried to Transfigure nanotechnology a la Eric Drexler. (He'd tried to produce a desktop nanofactory, of course, not tiny self-replicating assemblers, Harry wasn't insane.) It would have been godhood in a single shot if it'd worked. drat YOU HARRIEZER!  Eric Drexler is the guy who first hypothesized grey goo nanobots. One last experiment does succeed in creating carbon nanotubes, but Hermione is unenthusiastic. quote:"Harry, I don't think this is working out." Harriezer, tormenting the one person who will willingly spend time with him in order to become famous faster. He chases her off by acting like a spoiled little monster, then sits down to plan. quote:The wizarding world was tiny, they didn't think like scientists, they didn't know science, they didn't question what they'd grown up with, they hadn't put protective shells on their time machines, they played Quidditch, all of magical Britain was smaller than a small Muggle city, the greatest wizarding school only educated up to the age of seventeen, silly wasn't challenging that at eleven, silly was assuming wizards knew what they were doing and had already exhausted all the low-hanging fruit a scientific polymath would see. This is done so much better in the Arthimancer series. In that story Hermione follows her interests and explores what's possible. None of this petty, patriarchal guff about knowing better than everyone. Harry keeps on with Transfiguration, figuring a modern understanding of particles will offer new avenues. Prepare for a load of SCIENCE to the face. quote:You could only Transfigure whole objects as wholes. You couldn't Transfigure half a match into a needle, you had to Transfigure the whole thing. Back when Harry had been trapped in that classroom by Draco, it had been the reason he couldn't just Transfigure a thin cylindrical cross-section of the walls into sponge, and punch out a chunk of stone large enough for him to fit through the hole. He would have needed to impose a new form on the whole wall, and maybe a whole section of Hogwarts, just in order to change that little cross-section. Hermione bursts back into the room and undoes all their work, having remembered that Transfiguration is supposed to be super dangerous. quote:"Right..." Harry said slowly. "That's probably one of those things they don't even bother telling you not to do because it's too obvious. Don't test brilliant new ideas for Transfiguration by yourselves in an unused classroom without consulting any professors." I bet I know exactly what Harriezer is thinking right now. He's thinking it wasn't the work of others that he studied that helped him succeed, it was his personal devotion to the ideals of Rationalism. That would be a great big Attribution Error right there. Also, timeless physics is the usual kind of speculative bunk that Quantum Physics attracts. Harry now has a third power to abuse to solve all his problems, and it's all based on technobabble nonsense. quote:"All right," Harry said. "How about this. We study, and if I think of anything that seems really worth trying, we'll try it after I ask a professor." These moments of caring really make Harriezer much more awful of a person. He's not a remorseless psychopath who doesn't understand how he's tormenting others. He can be nice. It's that he chooses not to be so much more frequently. Harry actually does go to Minerva and Dumbledore to explain the idea he had and totally didn't already attempt. Minerva's thoughts and words pound over and over how impossible this idea is and how them Duke boys will never make it over that ravine. quote:The two of them started setting up the wards and detection webs. The most important web was the one that checked to make sure no Transfigured material had entered the air. Harry would be enclosed in a separate shell of force with its own air supply just to be certain, only his wand allowed to leave the shield, and the interface tight. They were inside Hogwarts so they couldn't automatically Apparate out any material that showed signs of spontaneous combustion, but they could launch it out a skylight almost as fast, the windows all folded outward for exactly that reason. Harry himself would go out a different skylight at the first sign of trouble. I'm surprised she can tell the difference from his resting smug face. Once again, no fussy old lady is a match for our Boy Genius! They are duly impressed by his success. quote:"Congratulations, Mr. Potter!" said Professor McGonagall, and meant it. She would have bet almost anything against that working. And now Harry is thinking that he's not the first famous eleven year old after all. Harry is allowed to practice with Hermione, but they have to keep this a secret. Now he's keeping a secret from Draco, he's keeping the Wizard Gene a secret from Hermione and Dumbledore - do you see the problem yet? Of course not, as long as Harriezer is at the center of the web all these secrets won't hamper progress at all. quote:Just before Harry left the workroom, with his hand on the doorhandle, the boy turned back and said, "As long as we're here, have either of you noticed anything different about Professor Snape?" Dear god, have one loving ounce of humility and you won't have to keep sniveling about your rash actions later. Harriezer reminds me of the 80s incarnation of Starscream. Always going own about his own power and cleverness and how he should lead, coming up with hare-brained schemes to gain power over others, and then on his knees apologizing when they inevitably fail. For some reason we now have an interlude where a young girl is making googly eyes at Professor Snape. quote:After class, Alissa approached the desk. Part of her wanted to stand there meekly with her face abashed and her hands clasped penitently behind her back, just in case, but some quiet instinct told her this might be a bad idea. So instead she just stood there with her face neutral, in a posture that was very proper for a young lady, and said, "Professor?" That's it - wait, I missed the foreword. quote:This should again go without saying, but views expressed by Severus Snape are not necessarily those of the author. Big Yud would totally get some of that schoolgirl action. 
Added Space fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 12, 2017 |
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Jan 12, 2017 00:26
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The Iron Rose posted:oh of course he would. I'd mostly disagree. There is an unfortunate block of chapters where the same plot of "Umbridge is a horrible bitch, she changes the rules to mess with the main characters, and Hermione fails at metallurgy" is repeated again and again, but for the most part it's solid. OctaviusBeaver posted:What was the point of Snape asking about James' bullying and then getting mad when Harriezer answer? He doesn't like that Harry called Lilly a gold digger? I don't understand the point of that conversation. I think the point was to make the reader question Snape's loyalty. Something like, "Onoz, he only sided with Dumbledore because he loved Lily, now that love is broken and he'll be evil!" Of course Snape is too smart to listen to a little poo poo like Harriezer. I think that's also why we have this little sidestory about a schoolgirl crush.
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Jan 12, 2017 01:01
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Chapter 29: Egocentric Bias Finally, a subject that Big Yud is an undisputed expert in. I've struggled with this chapter since I have so little so say about it. This is HPMOR : Ender's Game : The Prologue, and goes on far too long while barely saying anything. I'm going to act as Yud's editor and stitch together something far closer to what this should have been, one section of a different chapter. HPMOR posted:The idea of getting into a Romance with Harry had seemed like an appealing idea at first. She'd read books like that, and if there was anyone in Hogwarts who was a candidate for the heroine's love interest it was obviously Harry Potter. Bright, funny, famous, sometimes scary... A whole lot of the dead weight of this chapter is endless repetition of these basic points. Hermione is sick of being overshadowed, Quirrel likes manipulating children, and Harry and Draco don't have faith in her. On the chopping room floor we have: A cute moment. quote:It was after lunch on Thursday afternoon, and Hermione and Harry were ensconced in a little library nook, with a Quietus field up so they could talk. Harry was lying stomach-down on the ground with his elbows resting on the floor and his head in his hands and his feet kicking up casually behind him. Hermione was occupying a stuffed chair much too large for her, like she was the Hermione center of a candy shell. A ridiculous dig at the "Peggy Sue" genre, wherein someone does a Quantum Leap with future knowledge. quote:"Right," Harry said. "Well, to make a long story short, Bill Weasley decided that his little brother Percy's pet rat was Pettigrew's Animagus form -" Draco tries to rattle and/or bribe Hermione, which is just weird and not worth quoting. And, at the end of the chapter, we skip over Halloween. quote:Interlude: That's the only bit really worth reading. It's a bit revisionist, but still makes sense in context. drat this chapter is a slog.
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Jan 24, 2017 07:14
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Sorry, my reply got eaten by Chrome three times. Also, I stopped caring. Thanks Xander77!
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Mar 1, 2017 18:42
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Xander77 posted:Take it back. Take it all back. I'm not so good with sarcasm... do you want me to take the baton back? I could, but I don't know how good my scheduling would be.
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Mar 2, 2017 02:12
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