Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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cultureulterior posted:

One of the reasons I like HPMOR is because there's not a lot of fiction where death is bad.

I'm actually going to hold you up here because I would say that most fiction takes the perspective that death is a negative thing outside of specific circumstances such as inescapable anguish. I cannot recall a work in which a protagonist nodded and said: "Yes... death is good. Wonderful in fact. I think we need to do more murdering around here."

The two big exceptions I can think of are Lewis and Tolkien, and even in those, you are dealing, first, with people writing pretty explicitly Christian fiction, and second, with some nuance - in Tolkien for instance the idea is that everyone has a sort of natural span and that the end of that span isn't horrifying, but a gift from the creator. You may not like it but it's not exactly "pro death".

quote:

The deathist arguments are not very good, but at least someone is making them, someone actually says that humanity should strive for immortality.

I would say that the Harry Potter environment is an extremely poor environment to be making arguments for the feasibility and desirability - presumably, to the exclusion of other goals - of achieving literal immortality. (As opposed, say, to medical advances which increase the quality and duration of life.) This is for a variety of reasons, but the two large ones are that the first book specifically includes a literal immortality potion - Nicholas Flamel's "philosopher's stone" has been used by him and his wife to live six hundred years without difficulty. I believe it is destroyed by Flamel because Voldemort was going to use it to also become immortalily evil, and Dumbledore says "Yeah they're gonna put their affairs in order and peace out."

The second one, and I don't think this can be emphasized enough, is that this is a setting featuring literal magic.

# ¿ Oct 16, 2015 19:47

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 05:59

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Perhaps Big Yud wants to show us how easily it is for intellectual vanity to be seduced by a cult of personality or the allure of fascism?

# ¿ Oct 20, 2015 08:58

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Yeah this is, if anything, showing how Hermione is way more mature than any of these jokers, including Quirrell

# ¿ Oct 24, 2015 05:16

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MikeJF posted:

Who actually has a book with the first ten thousand primes listed. Who would print a book with ten thousand primes. There's zero use to that. Any real use for that information would be computerised.

While I'm not sure about the primes, there certainly is a book of random numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Million_Random_Digits_with_100,000_Normal_Deviates

You might fairly ask why does an eleven year old child, even a precocious and math-loving one, have such a book, and I'll tell you why: He's an rear end in a top hat.

# ¿ Oct 27, 2015 10:01

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As Umberto Eco said, by a constant shifting of rhetorical focus, Draco is made to appear both strong and weak

# ¿ Nov 3, 2015 09:24

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JosephWongKS posted:

He�s probably thinking of using his Time-Turner to pull off whatever he intends to pull off, but I can�t see how he�s going to get from Time/Point A to Time/Point B with everyone looking on. The last few times he�s used the Time-Turner, he was by himself.

Possibility one: He switches a fat marble with that Remembrall thing and is like "Are you sure you had it all along...?"

Possibility two:

# ¿ Nov 4, 2015 07:44

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divabot posted:

If there were a Wikipedia article with an actually well-written ==Plot summary== (i.e. spoils everything but doesn't get lost in the weeds of detail) of HPMOR, what would that summary say?

Harold Potter appears at a school and learns the power of the Dark Side. He later overcomes it with the power of Straw Rationalism, declaring that A=A, Bad Guy=Pwned, and the secrets of the Anti-Death Equation.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2015 10:52

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i81icu812 posted:

The thematic whiplash seems really inappropriate here. Is McGonagall concerned about student safety or is she a corrupt bureaucrat who doesn't care? You can't have it both ways in the same conversation.

If I'm reading this right, she wants them to have a DATDA teacher and is concerned that Harry loving Potter is going to gently caress it up somehow because his entire life is full of loving things up in the smuggest of possible ways, and he would then have to be replaced or otherwise dealt with. It's possible that Quirrel is able to get away with a lot (you know, like probably being Voldemort) because he's willing to take on this poo poo show of a job, and they don't want to lose him if they possibly can.

Harry also probably was doing the equivalent of abusing prescription medication. He was issued the time-turner because of his strange sleep disorder, right? The one that kept moving him two hours forwards every night, sleep-wise? And which, I suppose, is not amenable to any other treatment, such as (say) magic sleep potion pills which could reliably knock him out for eight hours at a fixed time? And here he is using it to gently caress around.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2015 08:58

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MikeJF posted:

He's describing a circadian rhythm disorder, specifically delayed sleep phase disorder.

So why does the little bastard need a time-twisting magic artifact rather than snooze pills? I mean I know the real reason but boy that's a thin reed to hand him that. I'm not sure how Hermione got access to one, I think she was such a high achiever they let her do it so she could take a couple of conflicting high-value courses.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2015 18:13

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JosephWongKS posted:

This description of Dumbledore�s room and the section of how �before the desk was X� and �behind Y was Z� feels very reminiscent of Tolkien�s writing style, but I can�t tell if this is a copy of a (vaguely remembered) actual passage in Tolkien�s books or just a general homage to him.

Reads more like some Infocom game poo poo.

Dumbledore's Room

It's full of clocks and poo poo.

There are exits to the north and the east.

Items here: Dumbledore, Dumbledore's clock, Dumbledore's poorly hidden gay pornography, Death (waiting)

# ¿ Nov 26, 2015 10:36

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MikeJF posted:

Spirit-Dumbledore claims it in the limbo, and it's certainly implied generally. There is confirmation of the existence of a soul, and given all the other post-death stuff I think it's probably safe to assume there's something.

The Department of Mysteries Death Room scientists probably know.

It is actually perfectly consistent for Yud to completely ignore this fact, because this isn't about a scientific mindset, it's about "rationalism" (in his specific sense), which appears to have a great deal more about figuring out the "cheat codes to reality" and determining how to do things better than others, at which point you either impose your will on the universe (cure death) or dominate others through your occult knowledge.

This is clearly a closed ideology with some confirmed landmarks which are beyond questioning. For instance, the idea that death is not just bad, but a massive, unthinkable, unalloyed bad; instead of (perhaps) losing out on a few hundred years of cyber funtimes, death gets measured by the umptillions of years which you will NOT exist. The mere fact of some sort of afterlife does not necessarily change this, and I imagine Harry could easily just slightly adjust the rationalist script - "oh, so I have to live in ghost town, eh? or worship God in heaven, or burn in hell? pfeh! i'd rather be alive here, now!" - but it is better for him if he can simply ignore the entire topic as irrelevant.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2015 22:23

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Hyper Crab Tank posted:

Again, that's the point... it needs to be more accurate and not whatever the hell this is right now.

Why should he give you the cow, when he can ~~sell the milk~~ solicit donations to support the work he hints at? The purpose isn't teaching, it's indoctrination.

e: Well, actually I'm sure it's pretty much an accident and he just meanders, but it would be entirely consistent with the philosophy of Elizierry so far

# ¿ Nov 29, 2015 11:29

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Harry has probably correctly identified that only institutional sexism stands between him being Hermione's ally, rather than her being his.

# ¿ Dec 3, 2015 21:17

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SSNeoman posted:

God I still can't get over how quickly he got accustomed to wizard terminology. That's so grating to me!

He rapidly assumed the jargon and nomenclature of a culture that presented him with obvious superior evidence of power. Say what you will about the grand power of rationalism and all that poo poo, as a wizard he can fly on a broom and turn people into frogs and poo poo.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2015 03:04

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GottaPayDaTrollToll posted:

I'm genuinely curious as to what works of fanfiction you would consider not "bottom tier poo poo".

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7583739/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-Most-Electrifying-Man

# ¿ Dec 27, 2015 10:35

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Hyper Crab Tank posted:

The difference is Rowling follows it with words that are uncommon and fanciful, which suggests a deeper intelligence and rich vocabulary of Dumbledore, in addition to his quirkiness.

Yudkowsky uses basic words (most of which are mono-syllabic) repeated in a weird off-putting cadence, making Dumbledore sound mentally retarded, or possibly five years old.

Well he has to be, doesn't he? He's not a Less Wrong poster.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2016 01:51

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Tunicate posted:

Magical ability is canonically a dominant gene, as well.

And clearly have nothing to do with one's whiteness or whatever, given all the non-white wizardlings running round. If someone wanted to try to model how magi-genes work based on the evidence in the books I suppose that would be harmless fan nerding.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 21:55

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Darth Walrus posted:

I thought one of the key points about magic was that it wasn't reliably hereditary (hence Mudbloods and Squibs), so Voldemort and other scientific-racist wizard-supremacists were completely full of poo poo? It's always treated as an innate talent (like being good at chemistry or having a great ear for music) that you can't breed for. A gift from God, if you want to tie it in with Rowling's Christian leanings.

Well it's kind of telling, isn't it, about their fascination with optimizing things so that no actual effort is needed. Or very little. Instead of putting some effort in to either figure something out, or perhaps figure out a way to save everyone hassle in the figuring-out process, you instead try to become a ~~Stand~~ Bayes User in order to be able to simply do everything instantly by magic. And what's the future God AI going to do? It's going to do everything instantly by magic. And if "reality" itself disagrees with you - you'll make a new universe, which works right, dammit! The way you want it to!

# ¿ Jan 8, 2016 22:54

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So what the hell is going on in this intensely drawn out scene anyway? It seems like Dumbles is dropping creepy non-sequiturs and Harry remains his established rationalist madman eleven year old self.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2016 07:40

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Well at least he's not advancing the "the fanfic is better and more important than the main work" argument.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 02:12

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Night10194 posted:

Also, when thinking about the hilarious naivety of his Slytherin voice, remember this is the story where manipulation is done by going 'Well hello, I am going to manipulate you now! I am so very clever.' and responded to with 'Oh my gosh, he's so dangerous and clever! But I'm being manipulated!'

"Oh no!! You're meeting all of my standards!!"

# ¿ Jan 13, 2016 06:36

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Harry could probably derive from Bayesian principles that you probably can't cook an egg that renews itself in magical fire.

# ¿ Jan 14, 2016 07:56

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divabot posted:

Well, that's annoying: su3su2u1 just deleted his Tumblr. (Someone on Tumblr threatened to dox him if he didn't. Love these rationalists!) Wonder if anyone kept a copy of the detailed HPMOR denunciation.

Totally sane. Completely reasonable. Not a cult. etc.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2016 21:19

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Cavelcade posted:

I think reading some of the posts in this thread made me realise one of the things I have a big problem with in HP:MOR.

If you wanted to tell the story of a rationalist in the Harry Potter world, why not just bloody well use Hermione? She's right bloody there already just have her be the one who read Feynman instead of what she did already read. She's basically ready made to have one tiny alteration. And then you open up so many interesting areas to explore - Harry is thought of as the hero but he doesn't want it and is relieved you're here to take over, for instance. You have a female with actual agency in the story. Basically it'd be those alternate titles for the books things but fully fleshed out with a rationalist Hermione.

I guess the Main Character would be less of an author insert then, though.

'cos she's a girl

Like I mean, there's a few different possible takes on that - Yudkowsky may not have thought of her, because he identified with Harry; Yud may have wanted to keep the main character to maximize readership and potential recruits for his phyg; Yud may have thought that Hermione wouldn't make a convincing rationalist, somehow; it may have started as cheap gags before becoming a giant novel-length piece of wank material - but other than the last one they all come back to "she's not the little boy main character, that's why."

# ¿ Mar 6, 2016 21:31

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I look forward to hearing an eleven year old explain how unions and tenure are awful.

# ¿ Mar 10, 2016 03:03

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JosephWongKS posted:

�Zabriskan Fontema� is a reference to a creature of the same name in E. E. Smith�s �Lensman� series, if I recall correctly.

Can confirm, it was basically a sunlight powered wheely thing with pretty much literally no brain whatever. (Telepathic contact with spiders and worms revealed some degree of motivation and mentality in other parts of the series.) It kept moving in a single direction forever on its flat, featureless planetary plain, sort of like a Less Wrong poster.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2016 21:56

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Liquid Communism posted:

Meanwhile we put a man on the loving moon while still at a stage were Katherine Johnson was checking the trajectories by hand. Because one incredibly smart woman can just flatly calculate their 'impossible' problem with her brain. These idiots make me furious with how little they know about the things they think they know.

Obviously the problem wasn't that hard if a female hew-mon did it.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2016 05:17

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That scene would have been way more effective if Harry spoke like a normal eleven year old and didn't over explain himself.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2016 08:33

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I think you could also play it as a pause as all the wizarding kids sort of go "Wait a minute, this guy's a massive prick who's endangered generations!" and it damages Snape's mystique, but that requires things like writing.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2016 09:17

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 05:59

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Jazerus posted:

I would take a slightly more nuanced view and say that it is interesting how the bots retain the style of an author even when horribly jumbled. Rowlingbot is noticeably more sophisticated than Yudkowbot with a longer and less choppy sentence structure.

Ah but you see since everyone's supposed to write super tight terse spare prose nowadays, that means Yud is a better writer than Rowling!

Or something.

# ¿ Jul 6, 2016 10:31

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Let's Read: "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

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