Gentrification: What is it, what isn't it, what should be done about it?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Gentrification: What is it, what isn't it, what should be done about it?

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

There's a common theme on these forums that urban living is ideal and rural and suburban living is unnaturally subsidized by the state. Gentrification is basically white people saying "you're right, urban living is so much better, I want to live there [again]". It's the inverse to White Flight, where people decide that they'd rather not drive a car to work every day even if it means interacting with other people (even if it practice they don't really interact that much).

The main issue with Gentrification is not the specific factors surrounding it, but because it involves massive transfers of people. There's a very good book about the development of Chicago in the 1950s called Brown in the Windy City, and it basically detailed how massive amounts of immigration and development led to misery for bunches of people. You're seeing the same issues here - whenever you move large amounts of people, you're going to get a lot of misery and pain.

As for solutions, as mentioned earlier the best solution is to build lots of low income housing in a location that's still close to urban centers. You're not going to stop Gentrification for the same reason you're not going to stop White Flight.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2015 13:53

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 11:08

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

PT6A posted:

No one's been making the point that people want to be physically very close to their place of work, only that they want it to be quick to get there somehow.

You mean aside from:

Radbot posted:

How about unpacking that a little and talking about how, tactically and specifically, you're going to ensure people have access to employment near their shelter.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2015 02:17

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Grand Theft Autobot posted:

Suburbs are very heavily subsidized, in the US, by states and the federal governments.

FHA and VA loans, and the presence of the federal government in the mortgage market, drastically alter the cost of home ownership. I don't think it is unfair to argue that without the robust housing policy structures put into place by the New Deal we wouldn't have anything close to the suburban sprawl we currently have.

The interstate highway system is another enormous subsidy for the burbs. Without the highways, suburban and exurban development would be checked much closer to the urban core. I've got a friend who commutes 90 minutes to work one-way. The only reason he can do this is the highway system, without which his commute would be impossible or be four times longer.

Gas subsidies, in the form of tax write-offs, oil depreciation allowances, Department of Energy expenditures in oil exploration research and other technical assistance makes gas cheaper and makes living farther out in the suburbs more economical and travel costs are kept artificially low.

The state and feds provide grants and tax incentives for new suburban developments, which have the effect of masking the real costs of development for decades. Eventually the roads built with grants require property taxes to pay for maintenance, the sewer lines break down, utlities need upgrades, etc. and the residents have to shoulder enormous tax bills. Another friend of mine just got slapped with a $6,000 bill in September for road upgrades in her suburban development. Sometmes what endsup happening is that the suburb borrows money and gets grant funding etc for a new development, and uses the increase in property tax revenues, surplus grant money, etc from that development to subsidize the maintenance of the older development. This scheme works until the 2nd development falls into disrepair like the 1st development, and now you're hosed (until you leverage up for a 3rd, natch).

Cool? I'm not disagreeing with any of this unless you're taking offense to the "common theme" part.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2015 14:41

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

tsa posted:

No, a lot of times the houses/ neighborhood are really lovely. Often with incredibly high crime rates. Show me a part of chicago that gentrified that was "nice" before gentrification, doesn't exist. And that's the case for most cities, same thing in DC really- hell many of the gentrified areas of DC still look like complete poo poo.

Chicago in the 40s didn't have nice neighborhoods?

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 02:04

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Tab8715 posted:

Hopefully this isn't too off-topic but since when is gentrification all encompassing bad?

Forcing out current residence, increases in taxes, prices, traffic is bad but it isn't all negative...

From a city perspective it's good because of higher tax revenue.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2015 14:01

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Smudgie Buggler posted:

I feel like I'm missing something. Do suburban areas in America tend not to belong to the same municipality as the city proper or something?

Usually they're not, no.

Quite often they're in separate counties, but usually they're at least incorporated cities all their own.

Tab8715 posted:

I think it's so strange how the next big thing is electric cars, autonomous cars, cars as a service. Wouldn't mass transit - busses, rails, subways be way more green, economical than any self-driving car?

Self driving cars solve a different problem than fuel efficiency.

computer parts fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Feb 28, 2015

# ¿ Feb 28, 2015 04:00

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Yes but America loving loves cars. There have also been issues where automobile companies have deliberately destroyed mass transit systems.

In that the mass transit systems were privately owned and were going bankrupt all on their own.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2015 04:18

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# ¿ May 15, 2024 11:08

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Oddly enough that's the other side of it. America cares about little more than corporate profits. Anything that isn't profitable is obviously useless so why should it even exist? If you put money in and something comes out other than "more money" it isn't justifying its existence.

I too support bailouts of private companies.

# ¿ Feb 28, 2015 19:49

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Gentrification: What is it, what isn't it, what should be done about it?