UKMT - The assassination of the green party by the coward Natalie Bennett

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > UKMT - The assassination of the green party by the coward Natalie Bennett

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Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

I'm no ukipper and i'd have a fairly major problem with someone who's lived in the UK for 16 of their 49 years becoming leader of the country

If you're not a kipper you're like as close as you can get without becoming one.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:22

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# ? May 22, 2024 06:33

communism bitch: Apr 24, 2009

Pork Pie Hat posted:

Broadly I agree with you. Where I would differ is to say that while a community taking action to clean up its locale may indeed bring them new perspectives on other people's jobs, which is fantastic, by doing that while the workers are striking is still scabbing.

But it has to be done. You can't reasonably say that people should live in filth and put themselves and their families at risk of disease simply to support strike action, any more than you can object to firefighters fighting fire during a strike. Refuse collection, despite not being nearly as rock star glam as firefighting, is no less valuable a public service. I would argue it's probably more valuable since our society's production of really vile, disgusting and dangerous poo poo is endless, constant and immutable.

quote:

As it happens the Green controlled Council did bring in an external workforce, so we can at least agree that they were scabbing.

yes

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:23

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Oberleutnant posted:

The point of a strike is to illustrate the importance of a service by withdrawing same, with the goal of showing people just how important that service is, and hopefully bringing them to the understanding that the people performing that service deserve better pay or conditions commensurate with the level of service they provide.

So, bin men stop emptying bins because their pay and/or conditions are poo poo.

The people who live in the area, tired of living on streets full of poo poo and filth, group together and clean up dirty, hazardous and just unpleasant material from their living space.
Now these people have a first hand understanding of the valuable and unpleasant service that refuse collectors provide.
Like, if this were people crossing the picket to work for a profit-oriented enterprise I could see your point entirely, but refuse collection is a public service - it has to be performed by somebody for environmental, general health, and safety reasons, and if the workers themselves go on strike I can't think of a better way of dealing with it than for the citizens themselves to get involved.

There's a certain school of activism that would say that cleaning up would be scabbing, and fly tipping and making GBS threads in the middle of the street during the strike would be activism, because it would help underscore how valuable the service being provided is.

That sounds too much like accelerationism to me though.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:23

Pork Pie Hat: Apr 27, 2011

Pesky Splinter posted:

I was being facetious, you should try it some time. Lighten up. As it is, I'm glad that you are content for them to save lives.

On an actual serious note, I agree with you on this.

Yeah I realised that as I was typing. I tried to remove the unnecessary bitchiness from my post, I misread yours and reacted badly, my apologies.

Anyway, don't try and make me out to be soft, I'd only be happy for them to save some lives. I mean, if it were Cameron, for example...,

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:24

Microplastics: Jul 6, 2007; It's what's for dinner.

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

I'm no ukipper and i'd have a fairly major problem with someone who's lived in the UK for 16 of their 49 years becoming leader of the country

why

I mean if they were going to be invested with a lot of power then sure, but what if it's a parliamentary system where said person is surrounded by and depends on people who've never lived outside the UK who collectively have more influence than that one individual

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:27

Pesky Splinter: Feb 16, 2011; A worried pug.

Pork Pie Hat posted:

Yeah I realised that as I was typing. I tried to remove the unnecessary bitchiness from my post, I misread yours and reacted badly, my apologies.

Anyway, don't try and make me out to be soft, I'd only be happy for them to save some lives. I mean, if it were Cameron, for example...,

Don't worry about it, I've done the same to mine, and it's clear it's an issue you have strong feelings about. It's fine. Forgive my facetiousness. We cool?

Well yeah, if it were Cameron, he'd be quite content to sit on a throne of charred bones.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:29

Pork Pie Hat: Apr 27, 2011

Oberleutnant posted:

But it has to be done. You can't reasonably say that people should live in filth and put themselves and their families at risk of disease simply to support strike action, any more than you can object to firefighters fighting fire during a strike. Refuse collection, despite not being nearly as rock star glam as firefighting, is no less valuable a public service. I would argue it's probably more valuable since our society's production of really vile, disgusting and dangerous poo poo is endless, constant and immutable.

In an ironic twist, this is something the Greens* and I probably agree on, we do as a society produce way too much vile crap and solutions to that problem are desperately needed. I also agree that bin men do provide just as valuable as service as the fire service. Where we are always going to disagree though is that no matter how much refuse collection has to be done, doing it while the workforce are striking will always be scabbing to me. I do appreciate though that that's a very hardline view.

* I'm not specifically calling you a Green here. You may well be, or not. I was just taking your point as something the Greens are probably big on. No offence intended!

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:33

Pork Pie Hat: Apr 27, 2011

Pesky Splinter posted:

Don't worry about it, I've done the same to mine, and it's clear it's an issue you have strong feelings about. It's fine. Forgive my facetiousness. We cool?

Well yeah, if it were Cameron, he'd be quite content to sit on a throne of charred bones.

Yeah we're cool. If we ever cross paths I'll buy you a pint and we can do all our strong opinions to each other with added booze!

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:35

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

KKKlean Energy posted:

why

I mean if they were going to be invested with a lot of power then sure, but what if it's a parliamentary system where said person is surrounded by and depends on people who've never lived outside the UK who collectively have more influence than that one individual

Because i feel people in positions of power in politics should be reflective of the people they represent and growing up in a country you get a much deeper understanding of the issues around your community. Someone joining up to the greens or SWP after moving over here as an adult for a career move or because that's where their dad paid the tuition fees isn't someone who should be fronting the views of a big swath of the population. I appreciate this extends to the public school crowd but that's an additional issue that needs sorting.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:40

Pesky Splinter: Feb 16, 2011; A worried pug.

Pork Pie Hat posted:

Yeah we're cool. If we ever cross paths I'll buy you a pint and we can do all our strong opinions to each other with added booze!

Sounds like a good idea :guinness:

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:41

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

Loving Africa Chaps posted:

Because i feel people in positions of power in politics should be reflective of the people they represent and growing up in a country you get a much deeper understanding of the issues around your community.

Actually, I'd feel a lot more confident that someone who's only been living and working in the UK for a couple of years would have a "deeper understanding of the issues around your community" than most Tory MPs and probably a few Labour and LibDem ones, too.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:48

Loving Africa Chaps: Dec 3, 2007; We had not left it yet, but when I would wake in the night, I would lie, listening, homesick for it already.

kingturnip posted:

Actually, I'd feel a lot more confident that someone who's only been living and working in the UK for a couple of years would have a "deeper understanding of the issues around your community" than most Tory MPs and probably a few Labour and LibDem ones, too.

Thanks for editing out the part where I agreed with this.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:49

Pasco: Oct 2, 2010

TinTower posted:

The Greens are losing a lot of credibility with LGBT voters too due to influential Greens coming out in favour of transphobic dogwhistles too. Which really loving annoys me.

As a G, I think you think far too highly of the LGB part of that acronym when it comes to their attitudes to transphobia.

I wouldn't think the Greens being a bit transphobic is going to affect their perception by most LGBs any more than it would the rest of the population, that is to say I don't think it will affect it at all :shrug:

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:56

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

I think our elected leaders should be able to come from any background or country because its up to the electorate if they want to elect them either because of or despite their background.

# ? Mar 1, 2015 23:56

Party Boat: Nov 1, 2007; where did that other dog come from

who is he

Did someone mention ukip? It turns out that several of their parliamentary candidates are racist fucks with a poor understanding of Facebook privacy settings. I'm as surprised as you are http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ted-online.html

quote:

Ukips's official General Election candidates have been caught posting racist and offensive material on the internet, revealing disturbing links between Nigel Farage's prospective MPs and far-Right groups.

The Mail on Sunday can reveal that at least six Ukip candidates have circulated or endorsed material from the British National Party and other nationalist splinter groups with racist neo-Nazi agendas.

Ukip last night launched an investigation into the offensive media found by this newspaper that included a racist BNP cartoon depicting violent stereotypes of black people, Muslims and Sikhs, and online links to extremist groups Britain First, English Defence League and Infidels of Britain.

The revelations will provoke uproar on the very weekend that Ukip held its Spring Conference, with leaders disassociating the Eurosceptic party with any hint of extremism within its ranks ahead of the May 7 Election.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:05

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

UKIP....racist? No...

no.....

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:06

Pesky Splinter: Feb 16, 2011; A worried pug.

They can't be; some of their best friends are black.

---

Pissflaps posted:

I think our elected leaders should be able to come from any background or country because its up to the electorate if they want to elect them either because of or despite their background.

Can't say I disagree, but a politician whose CV didn't consist of the "public schooled/ worked at Father's bank/ journalist" combo, would be a nice change of pace.

Pesky Splinter fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Mar 2, 2015

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:07

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

What's infidels of Britain all about, sounds fun

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:12

Jedit: Dec 10, 2011; Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014

JFairfax posted:

What's infidels of Britain all about, sounds fun

Britain's Got Infidels would be a good talent show.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:19

XMNN: Apr 26, 2008; I am incredibly stupid

What if Australia drops a nuclear weapon on London? Can we trust Natalie Bennett to push the big red button?

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:21

stickyfngrdboy: Oct 21, 2010

XMNN posted:

What if Australia drops a nuclear weapon on London? Can we trust Natalie Bennett to push the big red button?

Im sure one nuke on London would suffice.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:25

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Pork Pie Hat posted:

Except for the part where those few locals are doing part of the job of the strikers. That's totally not undermining the point of the strike at all.

I realise that this thread is full of liberals, who wouldn't understand political activism if it punched them in the face, but come on, doing the job of strikers is pretty much the definition of scabbing.

The problem is that if the locals are willing and able to do the job of the strikers then that suggests that there is a problem with the legitimacy of the strike to begin with.

If people are perfectly capable and willing to do your job for you without pay or training, then it's difficult to argue that you should be paid better.

If voluntary self interest can actually threaten the legitimacy of a strike, that suggests the strike has problems with legitimacy to begin with. If the only thing stopping people from doing the striker's jobs are the strikers themselves, how does that work?

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:25

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

JFairfax posted:

What's infidels of Britain all about, sounds fun

A Facebook group for vinyl fans

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:29

mrpwase: Apr 21, 2010; I HAVE GREAT AVATAR IDEAS
For the Many, Not the Few

OwlFancier posted:

The problem is that if the locals are willing and able to do the job of the strikers then that suggests that there is a problem with the legitimacy of the strike to begin with.

If people are perfectly capable and willing to do your job for you without pay or training, then it's difficult to argue that you should be paid better.

If voluntary self interest can actually threaten the legitimacy of a strike, that suggests the strike has problems with legitimacy to begin with. If the only thing stopping people from doing the striker's jobs are the strikers themselves, how does that work?

There's a difference between cleaning your street for a few hours, and doing lots of streets every day.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:32

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

mrpwase posted:

There's a difference between cleaning your street for a few hours, and doing lots of streets every day.

And if the locals are doing the latter willingly then that suggests they don't need to pay people to do it, if they aren't doing it, it doesn't threaten the legitimacy of the strike.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:34

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

OwlFancier posted:

And if the locals are doing the latter willingly then that suggests they don't need to pay people to do it, if they aren't doing it, it doesn't threaten the legitimacy of the strike.

But they're not really doing it willingly, are they? They'd much prefer to pay someone else to do it, so I don't see how it's unreasonable for the people providing the service to attempt to negotiate a better deal.

Also, I just read about that dispute in Brighton and apparently the Greens there were opposed to both cutting the council's spending and a council tax increase that would be required to avoid the cuts. That's... some impressive Bennettism.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:40

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

OwlFancier posted:

And if the locals are doing the latter willingly then that suggests they don't need to pay people to do it, if they aren't doing it, it doesn't threaten the legitimacy of the strike.

No it doesn't at all, what the hell. You're saying that if the council scrapped that service entirely people would go 'no problem!' and handle it themselves forever?

They might temporarily step in to alleviate the problems that the strike causes, which is basically undermining the strikers - people who can only go without pay for a limited time, especially if they're low-paid unskilled workers, and if they can't exact any pressure in that limited amount of time then they have to give up. None of this says anything about whether they're paid enough

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:41

Andy Impey: Sep 2, 2011

Other things that are scabbing:

- Taking a paracetamol when there's a nurses strike
- Letting your kids read a book during a teachers strike
- Going anywhere at all during a tube strike
- Watching ITV News while the BBC is on strike

Unless the residents of that road and Caroline Lucas were running their own waste management facility to sort everything they picked up, they weren't scabbing when they cleared up lovely nappies and broken glass. Absolute nonsense.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:44

Pierson: Oct 31, 2004; College Slice

stickyfngrdboy posted:

Im sure one nuke on London would suffice.

No-one else commented on this yet so: :drat:

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:46

baka kaba: Jul 19, 2003; PLEASE ASK ME, THE SELF-PROFESSED NO #1 PAUL CATTERMOLE FAN IN THE SOMETHING AWFUL S-CLUB 7 MEGATHREAD, TO NAME A SINGLE SONG BY HIS EXCELLENT NU-METAL SIDE PROJECT, SKUA, AND IF I CAN'T PLEASE TELL ME TO
EAT SHIT

Somehow Boris Johnson would end up riding that nuke (and there'd be a photo too)

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:48

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

JFairfax posted:

What's infidels of Britain all about, sounds fun

Like Richard Dawkins's fan club, but free.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:51

Hoops: Aug 19, 2005; A Black Mark For Retarded Posting

Pesky Splinter posted:

Can't say I disagree, but a politician whose CV didn't consist of the "public schooled/ worked at Father's bank/ journalist" combo, would be a nice change of pace.

We've had Brown as PM and Prescott as deputy PM in recent memory to be fair. I don't think it was that bad during the 00's in terms of the background of politicians (Labour ones, anyway). And then on the other hand, wikipedia is telling me that both Bennett and Caroline Lucas went to fee-paying schools so the Greens aren't doing much differently than the other parties in that context.

This is a big side note, but I have a working theory that we're specifically right now in a period of reversion in class equality that is a reaction to a certain "zeiteist of fear" in the national psyche. I'm up early tomorrow so I'm not going into the full outline at midnight on a Sunday, but essentially the tldr is that "UKIP, The Great British Bake Off, and Benedict Cumberbatch all owe their success to Osama Bin Laden".

It's not a conscious thing, but as a population we're yearning for "the good old days" before they had funny meats in Tesco with labels in languages you don't understand, and all the muslims started hiding bombs in their face veils. This manifests in odd ways; some people begin to trust privately educated politicians again, some people love Nige with his fags and his pints, some people get really into Dowton Abbey. I think if you trace it back far enough, they're all symptoms of the same root problem.

edit: I'm renaming it the "If you like the Bake Off you're responsible for British Neo-fascism" theory because that'll get more people's backs up

Hoops fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Mar 2, 2015

# ? Mar 2, 2015 00:59

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

BisonDollah posted:

Patrick Harvie is an excellent choice, been ages since we've had a bald and specky bastard as Prime Minister. Would love it.

He's also not afraid to speak his mind. Him calling out George Galloway out of his hypocritcal rant back at the Hydro was preety funny and he's more down to earth then most people with green alignments.

Jedit posted:

Britain's Got Infidels would be a good talent show.

It would have the quickest performances and a neat explosive climax to finish it off.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 01:32

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

Hoops posted:

edit: I'm renaming it the "If you like the Bake Off you're responsible for British Neo-fascism" theory because that'll get more people's backs up

UKMT March - Bake Off responsible for British Neo-fascism

# ? Mar 2, 2015 03:13

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

I love that programme.

# ? Mar 2, 2015 06:47

JFairfax: Oct 23, 2008; by FactsAreUseless

Pissflaps posted:

I love that programme.

Are you a Neo fascist??

# ? Mar 2, 2015 06:57

Kegluneq: Feb 18, 2011; Mr President, the physical reality of Prime Minister Corbyn is beyond your range of apprehension. If you'll just put on these PINKOVISION glasses...