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XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

just_a_guy posted:

Who is narrating? I hope Its not daredevil. I don't think i like The voice that much. Its giving me Bale flashbacks

Several voices, I recognize at least Kingpin and Daredevil in there, maybe some others too I forget. (wasn't there a woman?)

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XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.
New Daredevil trailer, horrible facebook link:
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1607643129471924&set=vb.1405070773062495

(sorry, there's probably a youtube but I didn't see it anywhere)

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Teek posted:

Hell yeah, really hoping for the best.

Give DeKnight Daredevil season 2, combine the other shows into Heroes for hire, then give DeKnight a co-showrunner on Punisher and maybe add Moon Knight or Cloak and Dagger and that would be a killer "season 2" for the Netflix shows.

I wonder how many shows Marvel could manage at once. Money needn't necessarily be a factor (I guess the shows are funded by Netflix and not Marvel/Disney? even so, if they're amazing successes, they can expand)... talent would be, especially for showrunners and stuff. I almost feel like the sheer logistics could be the biggest limiting factor. That and demand/audience size, I guess.

I just wanna see them run a loving dozen shows simultaneously at any given time, is that too much to ask? :smith:

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Tensokuu posted:

Are Starjammers tied up with the X-Men license? Anyone know?

I mean, the captain is Cyclops' dad, so probably? I kinda always figured they were, never heard anyone else suggest otherwise when it came up. They're pretty tied up with X-Men characters and lore, I'm pretty sure Fox owns a sizable chunk of the Marvel cosmos, like the Shi'ar empire.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Blackchamber posted:

Is it though? I don't think thats exactly the case. Look at how Quicksilver was in Fox's DofP and was/is appearing in marvel's A2. I read somewhere that it was possible simply by referring to either his real name or his codename and not calling him a 'mutant' which Fox had rights to. And we know Pietro's family tree.

It doesn't have anything to do with technicalities like that. If that was the case they would have made Spider-Man an Avenger already under the same premise.

It's because Quicksilver is largely an Avengers character, associated with that franchise as much as, if not moreso than, the X-Men franchise. When Fox made the purchase, they didn't just get a vague "everything x-men" license, they also got a very long list of specific things that do or don't fall under that umbrella. The very detailed contract that Fox and Marvel worked out apparently allowed for both of them to use a few characters like Quicksilver.

Similar things for the Fantastic Four franchise - Fox owns the specific character of the Super Skrull exclusively, but MCU is technically allowed to use the broad Skrull race if they want to so long as they don't use the characters that Fox owns.

But that's probably not the case with the Starjammers, since they're pretty much only an X-Men thing. Like, Professor X has been on the team at one point.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Deadpool posted:

:siren: Netflix Rules Update! :siren:

OK, here's what we're going to try as a test. Some people are not happy with the go-wild aspect of the Netflix threads so we're going to try a different approach. If you have general thoughts on the show that's fine. If you are doing specific reactions to episodes they will go into labeled spoiler tags with the episode you are on or have completed for the first 72 hours. If you haven't gotten to that episode then don't click on the spoiler. This is just a trial for Daredevil and if it doesn't work we'll just go back to the old way from now on. And now an example post:


So far the show is good. I enjoy this show so far through episode 10. It is a fine television program.

1x10
The thing that happens in this episode certainly happened. And how it tied back into what they were saying in episode 3 was definitely a cool thing. I think the villain that appeared in this episode and did the villainy thing was bad. He should be punched by the Daredevil and have to go to jail.

The 1x10 is just the episode you're up to. You can write all about episode four if you want, but if you let something slip that came out later and you forget and it maybe happened in epside six that's why you still put episode 10 and not episode 4. Get it? Hope it works. And if not sorry!

As a spoiler-sensitive whiny baby, I approve.

Do we know if they're going up at 12:00 PST, or was that a guess? Seems odd if we still don't know when they're going up.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Deadpool posted:

As much as I love both Arrow and Flash and think they're great it is glaringly obvious going from them or even SHIELD to something like this that there's a pretty big disparity in not only talent but production.

So far this feels like an actual top quality show.

If the show keeps up the quality I've seen so far I don't think I'm gonna wanna go back to Arrow at all.

Production value, acting, loving crazy fight choreography, music, it's kinda all there. 1x01 general stuff That first episode felt almost like a mini-movie, I didn't expect them to introduce and finish a whole plot like that. I also very much appreciate that while it's kind of an origin, it's not painfully so. They hit the ground running pretty well.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.
1x13
Anyone else feel like the final Kingpin v Daredevil fight kinda fell flat, relatively speaking? It was still choreographed super well and everything, it's just... They didn't do enough throughout the series to convince me that Fisk would pose any kind of threat to super-powered, ninja-trained Matt Murdock, so the whole time it felt like there were zero stakes. The Nobu fight felt way more dangerous.

I guess it still could have worked if it was just Matt pummeling the poo poo out of Fisk the whole time, but they didn't do that, and instead acted like he was an even match. Making Fisk a difficult opponent made sense in 1x09 when Matt was super-hosed up & kind of dying after fighting the Hand ninja, but here he was mostly healed from that.

I guess it also didn't help that I wasn't really mad at Fisk about the Urich thing. That whole death was so heavily telegraphed to me that I felt more upset at the writers for getting rid of such a rich character with so much potential for future stories than I felt mad at Fisk. If I was hated Fisk more I'm sure it woulda been thrilling to see him get beaten.

Don't get me wrong, though. The series was shockingly good. Cox, Woll, Henson, Dawson, Gunton, Moore, Curtis-Hall, Morgan, and more all put in fantastic performances. Vanessa Fisk's actress, in just a few lines, was maybe the break-out character of the show for me. I'm also extremely pleased they went so full-rear end comic book with ninjas and mystic old ladies and references to other poo poo all over the place.


Speaking of references, here's one very tenuous MCU connection I haven't seen mentioned anywhere else: (not sure what episode it was, let's just say 1x12 to be safe)
At the party where people get poisoned drinks, Owlsley mentions a "Van Lunt" who operates under the guidance of a personal astrologer. That'd be Cornelius Van Lunt AKA Taurus, one of the Zodiac cartel. And, Peggy Carter encountered the Zodiac group in her one-shot.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Hollismason posted:

Also, I don't think this is to spoilery its about a easter egg but can someone confirm that The Nelson and Murdock lawfirm, when they open the door the sign across the room for the other office says Atlas Corportation the one in the hallway.

It is definitely Atlas Investments. Is that a reference to the Olympus group AKA Best Hero Ever Hercules?? Or just a boring Atlas Comics/Atlas Foundation?

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Hollismason posted:

I'm pretty sure it's a reference to the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agents_of_Atlas

Maybe?


The logo for the in-show company is basically the same, so if anything at all, it's probably a reference to this.

It's Marvel's predecessor company. (Timely --> Atlas --> Marvel)

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

AllTerrineVehicle posted:

Wait what? I missed this, where was it?

I've yet to see an image but apparently 1x13 his stilts show up in Gladiator's shop.

Can we get a timestamp, at least?

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

MindlessHavok posted:

I didn't see anyone mention it but I'm 6 episodes in and just realized that Foggy is Fulton from the Mighty Ducks movies.

No way man, he's the buddy from the Butterfly Effect.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Hollismason posted:

Yeah The Punisher would be difficult to bring to screen because eventually the character is just a serial killer who targets criminals. He's basically Dexter, but with Guns. He's not super sympathetic and has no moral issues with just murdering people.

I mean maybe a Dexter style The Punisher mini series could work but I don't think it would.

I think he could work as either a villain or a morally gray ally, either for Daredevil or on any of the other series, like 1x06 Vladamir. And then you'd have to explicitly raise the issue of "is this guy any different from someone like Fisk?" I'd say he is. 1x13 Fisk's whole "savior" persona was a bullshit pretense all along, as he accepts in the "I'm not the Samaritan" speech. If improving the city and helping others was really his aim, he wouldn't be taking so much for himself, living in such luxury. He doesn't improve Hell's Kitchen for others, he does it for personal wealth and power. As Fisk himself said, he didn't kill his dad for his mother, he did it for himself.

They draw the perfect comparison with Murdock's job at the cushy firm. If Murdock would have taken that job, under the pretense that at some point in the future he's going to try to do good, but meanwhile being driven to work in a Benz, then he would have been the same as Fisk. But he didn't.

This show is all about Catholic martyrdom. You can't be a hero just by helping others only when it also helps yourself; to be a real hero, you have to be willing to help others even when you have to make a personal sacrifice to do it. And Punisher, as far away from Matt Murdock as he is, might just fit that criteria. At least, he fits it more than Fisk does.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Wolpertinger posted:

That's the thing with Punisher, though, he doesn't make personal sacrifices to help others, he makes personal sacrifices to hurt others - punisher sometimes ends up rescuing people by killing the people harming them, but that's not his priority or his goal. Oftentimes the punishment is way worse than the crime itself - he doesn't just go after murderers and rapists.

Yeah, that's a good point. I haven't read all that much Punisher, I didn't think of it, but you're totally right. It makes me even more convinced he'd make for a good questionable ally/villain, so that you could explore that contrast and the difference it makes.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

Yea I agree with this. For me the series felt like it started off strong and kept getting better and better peaking at ep 8. The rest of the episodes were ok, but didn't seem quite as good.

This is basically exactly how I felt. I'm glad I'm not the only one. It was still really good, but the last act was the weakest.

But... I suppose it is a TV series and not a movie. So I guess it makes sense that it wouldn't have a super satisfying awesome ending. I can forgive it a bit, since they're gonna continue the story in a very direct sense. Looks like Marvel still needs to figure out how to do a good ending a TV series.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Optimus Subprime posted:

I'm up to episode 12 of the show and I think its been good, but I can't really handle the Kingpin actor. His voice is really weird, and his cadence and inflection are unsettling in a bad way. Also his mandarin is terrible, but not too many people would get that.

I have absolutely no idea about anything mandarin but I could still tell his chinese sounded super awkward, especially since they gave Gao as a comparison of how it was supposed to sound. It didn't take me out of it, though, I thought it was appropriate for him. He's still small-time compared to, like, Donald Trump or Tim Cook or something. I doubt he gets much practice, and he's also fundamentally selfish, so although intellectually he understands the value of respecting and understanding others, it's instinctually repellent to him to actually do that, so he might not put in the full effort.

XboxPants fucked around with this message at 00:32 on Apr 12, 2015

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.
1x13 In the first episode, I just noticed Karen asks Matt and Foggy if they're just a couple of "good samaritans". :haw:

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.
Something I haven't seen mentioned is that whoever played young Matt did a really great job. For a kid, at least. So often you have kid actors that suck so bad and really take you out of it; having a child actor of his age who could act well enough to drive a scene was excellent. The younger version of the other character wasn't half bad either, but Matt was better imo.

Also there can't be enough praise given to the score. Most of it was fairly subtle and in the background, but it was done extremely well, way beyond normal TV fare, and really enhanced the scenes and help set the mood.

Question: what was Fisk's weird little plastic thing in the corner of his apartment? Trash can? Ash tray? R2D2?

BrianWilly posted:

For whatever it's worth though, the show isn't perfect. As some have mentioned, episode 7 is strangely weak, and I don't think the rest of the season ever truly recovers from it.
[elaborate details]
You gave some really good criticisms here. I pretty much agree with all of them. 1x13 I didn't think about it, but... I think you're right about Urich. The actor's performance was really good so it helped mask it, but his plotline kind of treaded water and then sputtered out. I actually felt the same way about Claire. Dawson breathed loving LIFE into that character and made her great, but as written there's really not much there. She functions mostly as a prop for Matt, rather than a character of her own. Maybe she was here as set-up, and she'll be treated better in another series?

quote:

1x13 And while I loved the Daredevil vs Kingpin fight at the end, I feel like it's a bit of a cocktease to show Fisk commanding an entire goddamn army to escape the police and then end up showing Daredevil leaping to the rescue by fighting...two...of them? At most?

1x13 This. This is what would have worked for me. Fully actualized Daredevil 1.0 with armor & club versus not just Kingpin, but Kingpin and like 5 heavily armed paramilitary operatives, all at once. That would have been loving spectacular.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Optimus Subprime posted:

So I finished the show So what was Kingpin trying to actually achieve other than buying out properties and bulldozing them? Was he just trying to entrench his criminal empire or something? How was that going to make the city better? For all his talk about bettering the city, I have no clue what he actually meant by it.

Well, I got two answers.

First one, my impression is that they'd bulldoze Hell's Kitchen and then rebuild it to be less lovely. Maintain order and high standards with an iron fist.

Second one, we don't see a clear plan from Fisk 'cause maybe he didn't have one. His entire Good Samaritan Savior of the City persona was at least partly a pretense. He may have wanted to be that person, and there may have even been a good side to him... but, largely, he was just in it for personal power and wealth. Wilson Fisk is a scared little boy, and needs to feel safe. He's killing the Russian mob/his dad for the himself just as much as he's doing it for the city/his mother. Maybe only for himself. As of the end of the season, it looks like he's starting to either accept this is true, or decide that it is.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

BrianWilly posted:

Infinity Stone. Calling it.

Nah, that's the cufflinks.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Svaha posted:

They really managed to sell the whole ridiculous superhero premise without constantly winking to the audience as if to say "Well yes, this part is incredibly stupid, but superhero show, amiright?"

I really, really appreciated this. There have been plenty of shows and movies that included lots of over-the-top superhero comic book stuff in the past, sure. But I feel like almost everything up until now has felt the need to apologize for it.

Like, things fell into 1 of 2 categories: either it's serious, and so it's realistic and avoids extreme comic book stuff, like Nolan's Batman, or it embraces it but then takes a step back and says "haha, just kidding, we don't expect you to take this stupid bullshit seriously!" like Schumacher's Batman.

This just went "gently caress you" to all of that. It made the statement that you can tell a story that has outrageously unrealistic fantastical elements, and still take it seriously, still have serious drama and rich characters. (and also some humor, but not at the expense of the stakes of the show)

A couple of the MCU movies have done this too, and I guess you could say Agents of SHIELD is trying to do this, but it's the first time I've seen it done well on live-action TV.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Drifter posted:

He cares about 2 people.

I don't get where you're seeing that he's a good person aside from him telling you he's a good person.

1x13 I guess? General theme of the show stuff.

I think there's a very strong case to be made that Fisk was not, in fact, just evil all along. That, although he says that he was the thief all along and it seems like he's "accepting" this, that maybe there's something more subtle than that going on.

There's a theme all throughout the series of the struggle between Good and Evil in Matt. It's not just a story about how Matt has to accept that he was an inherently good person all along; he has to decide who he's going to be. He could have gone down a darker path, if he had chosen. The potential for evil was in him all along.

Perhaps the same could be said of Fisk. It seems like he's just accepting who he is, but maybe that's just bullshit that he's telling himself so he can feel good about who he is, just like everything else he says about himself. It makes more sense to me that he's not just accepting that he's evil; he's deciding that. He's making a conscious choice to discard any potential good that he may have in him, and to embrace the devil.

And that only works if there was good in him to begin with.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Hollismason posted:

You said it way better than me , the entire series deals with this Catholic idea of Damnation. The way that Matt describes his world is his world is on fire, like he's literally living in hell

I'm not as well versed on Catholic dogma , but I'm pretty sure the series is full of it.

I think that's kind of what elevates the show though.

I mean it's the struggle of a Christian Warrior.

Yeah, don't get me wrong. 1x13 When I say "good" in Fisk, I'm mostly talking about how he does seem to care about at least a few other human beings. Wesley, Vanessa, and his Mom all seem to be people Fisk really cares for. He cares for himself more, but there's at least something there.

And the city renovation, yeah, that seems like almost entirely pretense. But hell, that's not the worst place in the world to start. As Wesley says, he does seem to genuinely love the city; it's just a very twisted, conditional love. If Fisk had decided he wanted to reform, that could maybe be a seed of him trying to actually be a better person.

You go through the motions long enough, wear a mask long enough, eventually it does start to influence you. If Daredevil goes around murdering people for long enough, then regardless of his motivations that'll corrupt him. Same goes for Fisk. If he decided to make a real effort to be good, and went around helping people and improving the city, then maybe eventually it'd start to make a change to him, as well.

Damnation is huge in Catholicism, but so is salvation.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Wolpertinger posted:

Part of Arrow's appeal was the over-the-topness, though. It's so different tonally - it's always been pretty much a superhero soap opera. I wouldn't say adding more ridiculous villains changed much at all, really.

After this season, I have confidence they can add pretty much anything as ridiculous as they want and still keep the tone even. How do you let Daredevil fight Stilt-Man and still keep it serious? Well, step one is assuming it can be done and committing to it. I bet they could do it if they tried.

Wolpertinger posted:

None of what we saw had anything like that tone so I don't think we need to worry about it too much. Crossover stuff like Defenders? Sure, there will probably be more blatant superpower poo poo to be worthy of four superheroes, the other three of which are all considerably harder hitting and tougher than Daredevil, but it still probably won't ever get hammy like Arrow and sometimes AoS.

Goddamn it's gonna be good seeing Daredevil keep up with a bunch of super-strength heavyweights and see what he contributes to a fight and how he makes up for not being able to throw cars or crush steel with better combat awareness and tactics. I wonder if he'll be the leader instead of Cage.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Shageletic posted:

Watched through ep 9. Gonna wait a bit, don't want too binge too much and have the show just blur together.

EDIT: If I were someone looking to get into Daredevil comics, I would just start when Bendis revamped the character, and keep going until Ed Brubaker ends his run. A lot of great comics that amazing in their solid consistency.

EDIT 2: Brubaker (and Fraction) also did the amazing Iron Fist run, so get those comics as well.

EDIT 3: Here's the Bendis stuff: http://www.amazon.com/Daredevil-Michael-Bendis-Ultimate-Collection/dp/0785143882

I love that they had Matt do that exact iconic pose at one point. 1x13 I think it was in the big parkour montage when he was chasing the blind drug mule to find Gao's factory. I don't know if it's from anything particular, but that sort of "Jumping T Pose", where he's flying through the air with his feet together and his arms sticking out to his sides seems very "Daredevil" to me, though lots of other acrobatic superheroes do it as well. I wish we could have seen him do it in the red suit.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Mirage posted:

Weird thing to criticize: I'm somewhat distracted by how lousy the picture is in the night shots. It looks like they used electronic cameras with really bad low-light capabilities. Even from a distance I see dancing pixels and "snow drifts."

Daredevil: Proudly brought to you by the Canon T5.

My ultra nitpick is holy GOD Wesley's ears were red in some of his scenes. (I'm not sure if it was always him, maybe other characters too). Indoor shots. Maybe they didn't have heat? It was genuinely distracting. Maybe put some make-up on that or something if you're doing an HD tv show, I just can't look away, it's like Rudolph but with ears.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Xtanstic posted:

More general thoughts:


Since all of my DD knowledge stems from the crappy Affleck movie and bits and pieces from the Fox Spidey cartoon in the 90s, can some comic guys shed light on what they've been foreshadowing and alluding to? I'm gonna go back and reread the thread and see if anyone has explained it already. [spoiler]I seem to have grasped that Stick and the shirtless guy is an Iron Fist reference


1x08 In the comics Stick has his own order of Good Magic Ninjas called The Chaste. That shirtless guy is one of them, someone named Stone. He is listed in the credits.

XboxPants fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Apr 12, 2015

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Boogaleeboo posted:

Hilariously 1x13 Wesley was the only thing that could have saved Ulrich's life. If he just told Fisk, they both would have gotten killed and that's that. If Fisk wasn't distracted, he gets the call and they are both dead. Wesley getting the call and trying to scare her into shutting up would have saved both their lives and kept Fisk from getting worked up. As an added bonus, it would have made no difference to how vulnerable Fisk was in the end. Indeed, nothing the main characters did outside the last episode mattered very much in bringing down Fisk. This is the totality of what they did: Daredevil beat up a cop, and protected another one. That's it. And it was enough, but those are the only two meaningful things our group did to actually take down Fisk. Karen did all that for nothing.

1x13 I thought this too at first; there's a scene near the end where Foggy's like "And we beat Fisk! All that legal work we did was worth it, we took him down." And I was thinking "wait, no you loving didn't, none of the poo poo you did make a lick of difference."

But it did, if you follow back everything that happened. Daredevil only was able to find the location the hiding partner was at because of some poo poo that Karen dug up in the last episode. And so that was based on tons of other stuff they had done throughout the series.

The visit to Marlene Fisk was totally pointless though, you're right about that. They... maybe could have cut this down to 10 episodes.

Unless there was a scene where Karen used that story to convince Foggy to recommit to the crusade. That might have happened, I remember her talking about it with someone. Ugh, it was like 4am+ when I was watching those later episodes. Next time I'll put some breaks in between.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Raserys posted:

I am aware of the implications in wanting the magic kung fu dragon fist man to be Chinese, but poo poo, the odds of any other Asian-American superheroes appearing within the next decade is approximately 0.5%, I want to take any chance there is.

Colleen Wing could show up if they keep doing Netflix shows, she's tied to the Heroes for Hire crew. Nico Minoru if Runaways ever happens (hahaha). Amadeus Cho if they ever do another Hulk movie (hahahahahahahahaha).

Of course, Quake is half-Chinese in the MCU, if that does anything for you. (hey did you happen to notice anything about almost all the Asian superheroes being ladies, what a strange coincidence)

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Raserys posted:

Here's the solution to all these problems: A Hercules show.

I didn't want to say it because it's too perfect.

loving DO IT MARVEL.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Heathen posted:

Runaways: The priest Matt keeps talking to is Father Lathom. Father Lathom was first mentioned in the Runaways comic.


Quake: Daisy Skye Mary Sue Poots THAT'S NOT HER NAME Quake Johnson was sent to the St. Agnes Orphanage. This is the same orphanage Matt was sent to.

Only slightly more represented than Black Women are Asian Men That Aren't Ninjas.

Sorta getting onto a tangent, but there's a ton of Asians and minorities of every type in X-Men. I'm sure we'll continue to get a lot of them... in minor non-speaking roles. Does Colossus count as Asian? He was born in Siberia.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

dj_clawson posted:

Same. Shivering and eyes are burning from a fever, should have been in bed hours ago, and now I'm watching Fisk trying to woo a woman on her front steps and it's heartbreaking.

It is a little hard to take some of this seriously, as I live in Manhattan. I'm watching with my roommate. I've been through the whole Daredevil comics series and she's never read one, and we had to suspend disbelief about the condition of Hell's Kitchen, or that criminals would be so interested in it and there would never, ever be police around. 9/11 happened, writer dudes. Yeah this poo poo goes down, but it doesn't happen so close to Midtown or the Financial District. Also there's CCTV everywhere! The real money's to be made selling real estate to Chinese billionaires seeking to hide their money outside their country, and those negotiations don't happen where the apartments are.

I just had to keep explaining to my roommate: "Um, this was written in the 60's. So, yeah, people made money on the low time boxing circuit, two broke lawyers would totally open their own practice, and that was magic radioactive toxic waste he was splattered with, because Stan Lee and Jack Kirby and blah blah blah. But hey, it's way better than all the lovely Marvel shows you watch on Hulu."

Also, Matt can TOTALLY see. Those contacts are not good enough.

Did you not buy the idea that when the Chitauri invaded during Avengers, and completely destroyed Hell's Kitchen, and essentially got Super-Katrina'd, that could have this much of a negative effect? The CCTV all got blowed up. All the businesses got blowed up. No one with money lives there anymore 'cause they either died or moved because their house was blowed up. That would have made things worse, right?

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

NmareBfly posted:

Series could use some more ladies around in general. Basically all the villain NPC's are dudes, and I guess it makes sense for street toughs but were there any female cops? I think one got snipered but I dunno if any had a single line. Elektra will help with this. At least the ones they did have were all pretty drat competent -- well, the lawyer-lady whose name I forget is mainly good at stealing files without getting noticed and they don't have much of her on-the-job doing lawyer stuff, but if she's made partner you can assume she knows what she's doing. Madame Gao was great too but they had to keep her totally enigmatic so she's less a character and more a force of nature.

Full Series: I didn't wanna complain about this too much, but while this show does a better job with its women than many, maybe most media, it still has a few steps to go.

As someone mentioned, they still do the Female Lead Can't Find Out the Secret! tension. That was annoying, but Karen wasn't just there to function as the love interest of the main character, and instead got her own plot, so I'll say they're still out on top with Karen. Claire, despite Rosario Dawson knocking it out of the loving park, was mostly Matt's love interest, though. She didn't have anything of her own going on, really. Karen, Claire, and Vanessa are all put in damsel in distress roles repeatedly, unlike Foggy, Ben, or Wesley.

And I know it's a lame test that you can't use as an absolute, but I think the only scene where multiple women are in the same scene together talking about their own poo poo is when Claire talks to Shirley, the hospital administrator, for like two lines. Other than that I can count the number of times women talk to each other about anything on one hand.

Again, the show does pretty well by women. Karen, Gao, and to some extent Cardenas are all strong characters with their own plots, and Claire, Vanessa, and Marci are strong supporting characters. I thought Fisk's wife-beating dad story was handled quite deftly. The bruises you see on Marlene's arms in her first flashback were super loving disturbing.

But, there's still some room to grow.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

seaborgium posted:

Spoilers for most of the series I think, though surprisingly related to the subtitles: I thought the subtitles were related to what the characters believed people knew. Anytime people thought they needed a translator, no subtitles. You had to rely on a translator. As soon as the characters knew that they didn't need a translator, they got subtitles. Gao and Kubo initially didn't get subtitles as Fisk said he needed a translator, same with the scenes with Elena and Foggy in them. He needed a translator so no subtitles. Later, we got subtitles when it was just Karen and Elena, they both knew spanish. As soon as Fisk and Gao revealed they knew each others native tongue we got subtitles, there was no perceived need for a translator. Could be wrong, but that's how my subtitles seemed to be working.

You're right, and to go further, that's because they only subtitle it if the audience is supposed to know. They don't subtitle stuff when the main characters don't understand it, because we're supposed to be identifying with them, so it doesn't make sense to give us extra information they don't have. It would undermine our ability to sympathize with the characters and understand the situation. Like if there's a "fish out of water" scene in some movie where an American is in China and everyone's talking about him and he has no idea what's being said, and he's confused and nervous, you wouldn't subtitle that, either. It's a deliberate effect.

So if two foreigners are alone talking non-English together, that gets subtitled, but if a main character is captured by those same people and they're talking about him/her, maybe that doesn't get subtitled. It could seem inconsistent, but it's purposeful.

Though yeah there's also a separate issue where Netflix subtitles are only like 95% reliable and sometimes just skip whole lines because of lag or whatever.

XboxPants fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Apr 12, 2015

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Valeyard posted:

11 and by killing him, she has surely saved herself and her friends from being killed

11 Didn't Wesley specifically tell her that he hadn't told Fisk yet and he was the only one who knew?

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Gyges posted:

1X11
That's a silly reason to be mad at her. Killed is dead whether it's one shot or 6. The real reason to annoyed with Karen is her constant instance on putting everyone around her in danger. Her entire story in the season is being selfishly determined to atone for the death of the lawyer in her apartment that wasn't her fault, in the process actually causing harm to reign down through her actions. People die, lives are ruined, and corruption is made worse through her actions. Yes she's trying to do the right thing, but she never considers the consequences and thinks weak apologies to those affected counter the good intention paving stone factory she's built up.

Matt feels guilty and blames himself for everything. Foggy feels bad for bad things happening to other people. Karen absolves herself of guilt by digging deeper and getting more people involved. She's not a bad character or anything and I like her. But she's an anti-damsel in distress, causing destruction to all those she comes in contact with.


11 Sure, but I'm not sure why you're singling out Karen when you could say all the same things about Matt. Matt got Old Lady Elena killed, Claire tortured, a little kid kidnapped and his dad crazy beaten up, and all other sorts of horrible things.

In the end, none of that is on Matt or Karen, it's on the sick fuckers that are actually doing the murdering. You can martyr yourself or other people all you want, but in the end, Elena was the one that decided to keep sticking up for herself and fight for her neighbors, and Fisk was the one who decided to kill her. It's not reasonable to blame Matt for it, even if he could have prevented it. Same goes for Karen and, for instance, the danger she supposedly placed Ben into. She's not in control of Ben's life, he is. He put his own self in danger, not her. That's all on him.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Gyges posted:

1x12

Matt puts people in danger in a less direct way through his actions and actively tries to save those he does put in danger. He actively tries to not pull anyone else into danger through his actions.(Obviously excepting mobsters and the like.) His is the whole Spiderman/general vigilante dilemma.

Karen on the other hand doesn't just poke hornets nests, she ropes people into standing beside her when she does it. Ben gets killed because she doesn't like him trying to get out, so she literally tricks him into meeting Fisk's mother. She knows that she's actively pissing off dangerous people and doesn't tell Foggy or Matt that she's locking the office door because people are likely coming for her. It's the casual and willful endangerment of everyone around her that is different than Matt, and kind of annoying.

It's not bad for the plot and doesn't make her a bad character, but it's way more annoying than Matt and Foggy not telling Karen he's the Devil of Hell's Kitchen. Especially since it was shown more than once that she really does need back up and should bounce her ideas off someone else before charging in.

I just want her to be honest with the guys, and they drink some eel liquor about it, and then Matt goes and Devil punches the problems away. Then Foggy makes a joke about hangovers the next day.


That makes sense, I actually can see the differentiation you're making between her and Matt. I'll be really interested to see where they take her character and what kind of crazy poo poo she has in her backstory.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

Deadpool posted:

Remember starting tonight at 3am EST we no longer have to use spoiler tags. I'll be taking a vacation at that point as I'm only done through episode seven. But I'd like to ask everyone that has posted how well you like this policy for spoilers and would you like it to continue for other Netflix shows? I think pretty much everyone understood it and did exactly as it was laid out and in that case I'd call it a success but I'd like to hear feedback from you guys as well.

For reference, I'm a whiny "keep your spoilers away!!!!" person. I even avoided looking at the full costume.

I think the policy worked very well. It helped me read reactions to episodes as I was going through it, and then hopefully tag stuff appropriately I finished. Also, even though 72 hours might seem short, in practice I feel like it was plenty of time for the policy to be in place. I'm super ready to just have open field discussion of the show. I'd even be fine if you cut it back to 48 hours in the future.

There are people who haven't finished yet, but as you mention, anyone who doesn't wanna be spoiled really oughta know not to come into an active thread.

One thing though - If the OP wanted, they could even link to where discussion of the show started, with an explanation that the first several pages have all the spoilers tagged by episode. Because that discussion might still be interesting to newcomers, and all the posts will remain properly labeled, and then eventually they'll get to your post that says "spoiler tags are about to end" and they can stop reading. Just a thought though.

XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.


Is there a better match than this? This is wine, I thought they were drinking hard liquor of some type.

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XboxPants
Jan 30, 2006

Steven doesn't want me watching him sleep anymore.

strangemusic posted:

Is it wrong that I (13) significantly preferred the tacktleneck duds to the actual Daredevil suit?

Otherwise this has been a great show to watch, I love what they did with Fisk.

It's a really goddamn good costume. 13 The tailor said that some parts of his costume weren't finished, so it could look different next time we see it. I sure wouldn't mind a sleeker, simpler design.

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