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Sure the game people paid full price for turned out a little rushed and disappointing but to make up for it they rushed out disappointing dlc as well. 
Poil fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 07:35
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I have some questions about Cities Skylines ONE: I've run into this perennial problem where a lot of my commercial and industrial zones start waving the flag of "not enough educated workers". Now, I read a guide about how the education system works, and far as I can tell this is all about making sure that my schooling system has enough capacity, but: 1. waiting for people to become educated takes time. Assuming my bottom-line is in the green, is it possible to just not expand a town for a while? 2. if the answer to 1 is "yes", my understanding is that you're going to want some kind of balance in the R/C/I split. Is there a graph or some kind of data view that'll show me total demand for workers, preferably by education type, versus actual number of workers available? The unemployment graph isn't helpful, and neither is the employment graph. 3. the education guide I read described that overeducation can actually become a problem: if everyone in the city is educated, then they're not going to want to work the jobs that demand uneducated workers, which then hurts things like the Farm Specialization districts. If that's the case, is it possible/feasible to just not pursue those kinds of industries? 4. on the flipside, what if I don't want an educated population, and as such only pursue generic industries? That does mean that buildings won't level up, which means I'm leaving a lot of densification and tax revenue on the table, but as long as the budget is in the green, that's technically still a playable city, right?
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Mar 27, 2024 12:07
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3 is wrong. Educated workers will take a lower skill job, but only if there are no jobs better suited for their education level available. Both situations are an indication of simply not having enough workforce available, but having a higher educated workforce is always preferable.
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Mar 27, 2024 12:14
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so I actually can plan for providing enough education for everyone, and college grads will still work the miner jobs if there's nowhere else for them to go, but I guess to go back to the first question: does it make sense to pause further expansion of the town until more people are educated? Because even if I zone out some more residential, the people that'll be moving in are going to be mostly uneducated anyway, which does nothing to solve the problem of industrial/commercial that needs educated Cims.
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Mar 27, 2024 12:27
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so i'm an idiot who bought the game on release, played 20 hours, and figured "well surely they'll get to work fixing this and it can be a good game" only for the next five months to pass and make me feel like an even bigger rear end. up until now, i had lucked out on pre-ordering or buying games at launch, so i've never really paid much heed to the common wisdom of, y'know, not doing that. lesson learned i guess. at this point i feel so burned i really do just want my money back and to not look back at cs2 ever again, but of course i'm way outside the steam refund window and i don't think paradox is going to offer one of their own. i'm sure mods will make this bearable, but i just don't care anymore tbh.
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Mar 27, 2024 18:18
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I really do think if you come back in a year you'll have a good time. I remember playing CS1 at launch, thought this kind of sucks, went back to SimCity 4, then came back to it years later with a bunch of mods and it was great. I was hoping CS2 would be good out of the gate but lol.
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Mar 27, 2024 18:25
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With the news going around of the DLC being terrible, I was reading up on things a bit in various forums. I keep reading that the agent simulation aspects, that were touted so hard, are basically non-existent. That true?
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Mar 27, 2024 19:39
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Combat Pretzel posted:With the news going around of the DLC being terrible, I was reading up on things a bit in various forums. I keep reading that the agent simulation aspects, that were touted so hard, are basically non-existent. That true? a recent patch just introduced the basic components of land value that they advertised in a dev diary almost a year ago so make of that what you will
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Mar 27, 2024 19:43
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Combat Pretzel posted:With the news going around of the DLC being terrible, I was reading up on things a bit in various forums. I keep reading that the agent simulation aspects, that were touted so hard, are basically non-existent. That true? Somewhat, but somewhat overplayed, but also not: - on launch, and even now, major parts of the simulation were broken and buggy - past that, the game doesn't give you any direction on how half the systems do or don't work - also, the game isn't balanced around a challenge, so you can ignore half the systems in it and your city will be just fine - also the visualization overlays in the game are terribly designed and hard to ready, so its not obvious figuring out how things are working in your city - also some of the systems seem to be badly designed, hence the recent overhaul of land value to include such things as "pollution" having an effect on a building's land value
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Mar 27, 2024 19:48
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The simulation is so buggy it's kind of hard to diagnose if any particular system is working. There are people who've tracked a single individual sim around for hours and found that they just kind of randomly bounce around switching jobs and houses constantly, rather than having their own little routine as advertised. I don't know if that's still happening, I saw those months ago.
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Mar 27, 2024 19:54
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I’m sorry but a paid DLC adding beach properties to a game that doesn’t have beaches is seriously funny
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Mar 27, 2024 20:23
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Tiny Timbs posted:I’m sorry but a paid DLC adding beach properties to a game that doesn’t have beaches is seriously funny Their explanation for why they chose beach fronts as their first DLC makes it even funnier. quote:Before Cities: Skylines II was even announced, we had picked the concept for this pack, though work didn’t properly start on the assets themselves until closer to the release last October. As you may have already spotted from the names of the first DLCs, we have focused our attention on waterfronts and seaside cities. In Cities: Skylines we weren’t able to do much with the waterfronts, so going into Cities: Skylines II, it felt like a natural choice to start expanding the game there. They wanted to show what they could do with waterfronts in CS2 because they were limited in CS1 and then they put out some residential buildings that have no impact on waterfronts...
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Mar 27, 2024 20:28
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I get that there is a much more complex simulation, but why didn’t they just rip it out? I feel like they walked into the same trap that Simcity did before CS1 ate it’s lunch.
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Mar 27, 2024 20:31
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Lord Packinham posted:I get that there is a much more complex simulation, but why didn’t they just rip it out? I feel like they walked into the same trap that Simcity did before CS1 ate it’s lunch. hubris and thinking people care about agents.
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Mar 27, 2024 20:42
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Lord Packinham posted:I get that there is a much more complex simulation, but why didn’t they just rip it out? I feel like they walked into the same trap that Simcity did before CS1 ate it’s lunch. i think it's because people generally agree that sim city 4 was good because it has a good simulation so they wanted to make a game with a good simulation
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Mar 27, 2024 20:58
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Agent based simulation has a certain beauty to it. For one, it feels more "real", and if the agents are working properly you get easy visualisation. You don't have to spawn fake cars to visualise simulated congestion, agents stuck in traffic just get stuck in traffic and a player can follow an agent to understand what's going on. It's just too bad if the simulation part doesn't work properly and has to be faked anway.
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Mar 27, 2024 21:02
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It's a reversal of that line from Jurassic Park. They were so busy thinking that they should (make a good simulation), they never asked themselves whether they could
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Mar 27, 2024 21:03
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I think they can get there it just should not have released when it did, it was/is very half baked and as others have mentioned it's too opaque and you can't really tell what is working correctly.
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Mar 27, 2024 21:13
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the simulation is always going to suck compared to SC4 so long as there are systems in place intended to prevent fail states
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Mar 27, 2024 21:16
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I don't think their problem was they couldn't get the agent-based simulation stuff working, I think they're just not capable enough of a studio to nail it in the way Maxis would in previous SimCity games (never played 2013, not counting that). Like consider the land value changes they made, it was just a bad design in the first place. Or the low-rent housing in this game, which makes you think government-subsidized housing, but it's just apartments with smaller rooms -- which people can still complain about rents being high if they move in and the area is too high in value. Or the tax system in this being a graduated education based income tax, which isn't afaik that common for municipalities to do (municipal taxes on income, that is, no one taxes on education level). Or that they put waterfront houses as its own zoning category in this game, split separately between EU and American styles despite both styles looking the same in this. Or that they neglected to add a quick beach zoning feature in this with their beachfront DLC, despite having a way of laying down sand in the dev tools already. Or this guy figuring out that they're just using the default Unity water renderer, without even changing the scale to make it look right: https://old.reddit.com/r/CitiesSkylines/comments/1bp7j5r/i_modified_the_look_of_the_water/ There's a few interesting mods and experiments where people just changed default Unity components to something else and its a huge improvement. Heck, check out this mod that fixes a bug with the signature industrial buildings in the game so that companies will actually move in: https://github.com/Infixo/CS2-SignatureFix/blob/main/Patches.cs That's still an issue in the game, that mod is still relevant. I think if you strip away the agent based stuff, you're not really getting a better game, they're too sloppy to envision it. I think we have to rely on modders again to have a vision and execution for this game.
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Mar 27, 2024 21:20
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Discovery of the day: population does not count as population until it drives a car in. It can work, consume services, and so on, but it will not be counted. E: A couple game-days later, they finally despawned from the highways and arrived at home, sans cars. This might actually be a way to get a carless game going. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 27, 2024 21:23
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piratepilates posted:Like consider the land value changes they made, it was just a bad design in the first place. the new land value system they added is the one they described before release so i don't think that was a bad design issue
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Mar 27, 2024 22:02
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nielsm posted:3 is wrong. the solution in SC as in real life is always "build more housing"
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Mar 28, 2024 00:31
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gradenko_2000 posted:so I actually can plan for providing enough education for everyone, and college grads will still work the miner jobs if there's nowhere else for them to go, but I guess to go back to the first question: does it make sense to pause further expansion of the town until more people are educated? Because even if I zone out some more residential, the people that'll be moving in are going to be mostly uneducated anyway, which does nothing to solve the problem of industrial/commercial that needs educated Cims. okay I did some experimentation on this and I guess it works: just let the simulation run for a while, like six months without touching anything, and people will get educated. It even helps buildings level-up, and lets residential places fill-out completely, and builds up a bunch of money so I'm sitting on the edge of needing a loan all the time. at this point the fishstick factories are reporting "overeducated" people working in it, but that's fine.
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Mar 28, 2024 02:15
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But aren't people taxed based on their education? How are they paying phd taxes on a janitor salary?
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Mar 28, 2024 08:19
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I was searching for the "shack collapses on Grover" gif on google image search when I saw everyone's It's for Cities Skylines 1 naturally. So if you needed even more reason to play that, now you can plop down load bearing drywall to really give rural neighborhoods a certain rustic charm.
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Mar 28, 2024 08:26
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I'm reading through the patch thread on paradox plaza for fun, and someone posted this screenshot of a beach in SimCity 4, and gently caress me that's a nice looking beach, look at all those people and props and palm trees and such, completely forgot that this was even a part of SC4
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Mar 28, 2024 16:31
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I think that's just the base game beach too, not a custom one. It's fiddly to place but if you get the terrain right it does look nice. It's amazing how good SC4 looks considering how old that game is. They did an incredible job with the art.
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Mar 28, 2024 17:41
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That's understating it by like 3 orders of magnitude. You would not believe how fiddly it is trying to get beaches to look that nice in SC4.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:13
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Yeah SC4 is not the paragon of beach placement. Really wish a game would get that right some day.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:26
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It's pretty easy to do in modded Skylines. I'm sure it'll be possible in 2 eventually. Just not because of the developers.
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Mar 28, 2024 18:49
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The challenges I remember with placing beaches in SC4 are mainly two parts: First is that you need a shoreline that is mostly aligned with the grid, so you can plop the lot along it. Second is having a gentle enough slope at the shore. I remember it as most of the default maps consisting almost entirely of cliff-grade shores and never a gentle, rolling slope. Of course the Beach ploppable doesn't care about the terrain grade, all it cares about is having one end on land and the other end in water.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:20
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nielsm posted:The challenges I remember with placing beaches in SC4 are mainly two parts: First is that you need a shoreline that is mostly aligned with the grid, so you can plop the lot along it. Second is having a gentle enough slope at the shore. I remember it as most of the default maps consisting almost entirely of cliff-grade shores and never a gentle, rolling slope. Of course the Beach ploppable doesn't care about the terrain grade, all it cares about is having one end on land and the other end in water. this post bringing up some long buried sc4 trauma
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Mar 28, 2024 19:30
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Beaches carving out sheer, extreme sea cliffs that you then have to connect via a megaproject feat of engineering road is classic day 1 SC4 fun.
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Mar 28, 2024 20:27
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The year is 2003. You arrive home with your boxed copy of Simcity 4. As you eagerly pull the CDs out and locate the game key behind the booklet, a genie appears! “I grant you a limited vision of the future. This game will be the high watermark for city building. In the year 2024, over twenty years from now, it will still be unmatched” He also mentions something about an orange guy with stupid hair before vanishing but you’re too caught up on the whole genie thing to pay attention. Do you feel excited about this paramount game you hold in your hands, or worry that the genre will stagnate after this?
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Mar 28, 2024 20:43
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That would be depressing. Maxis hadn't been strangled yet and every SimCity was better than the one before. There was no reason to think we wouldn't get a SimCity 5 that was another leap forward. I listened to an interview with Ocean Quigley recently and he talked about how SimCity 2013 was annihilated by EA forcing the online element. Their plan was for the entire map to be opened up as a continuously playable region, but the always online thing meant they could only make tiny cities work. And then the game sucked and died so they never got the chance to try to salvage it. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 20:51
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That Ocean guy had a pretty public facing role too right? I faintly remember him doing what he could to assuage fears people had. He was either doing art or music or something too right? God it’s been so long.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:18
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He was the lead art/creative guy on SimCity 3000, 4, and 2013, plus lots of other stuff since he was at Maxis for like 20 years.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:22
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I remember that name from the SimCity 2000 design book
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Mar 28, 2024 21:26
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu7cHhbqKcw Here's the interview by the way. The SC2013 stuff is toward the end. Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Mar 28, 2024 |
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Mar 28, 2024 21:50
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