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Do they still mandate conversion therapy? BYU had a
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Apr 2, 2015 00:06
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Jack Gladney posted:Do they still mandate conversion therapy? BYU had a Now they just make them marry women  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OrU6G2tRaQ Too bad I can't find the whole thing on youtube but wow jeez
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Apr 2, 2015 00:57
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Sanzio037 posted:No beards? Well count me out of joining up. Gosh darn it, this sounded like the group for me too. I believe the Old Believers take converts  quote:Old Believers consider the shaving of one's beard a severe sin. This is due to the so-called iconographic thinking of Orthodoxy: Christ had a beard and men ought to have the same appearance
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Apr 2, 2015 01:04
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Believe it or not, you can convert to Amish
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Apr 2, 2015 02:09
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Jack Gladney posted:How do the JWs keep grownups? Attrition is apparently a huge problem for Mormons. Color me wrong but I remember seeing a figure somewhere where the largest proportion of converts for Jehovah's Witnesses come from single women who have previously had a divorce. Either way, attrition is an issue for JWs, at least for the men, oddly enough. There's something like a 70/30 split of female to male ratio in nearly all age groups over 18 years old. If you're a young. single JW guy, you pretty much have your pick of which lady you want to get married to. And that's how they try to lock in men. Get them married to a JW bonnie blue lass and she'll force them to stay active in the congregation. It was attempted on my father, a non-JW, and was fairly successful until the spat that led to our family leaving.
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Apr 2, 2015 02:23
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I just learned yesterday my JW co-worker was once disfellowship-ed, but not long ago kissed enough rear end to make it back in. The reason she was kicked out? Her JW husband at the time was cheating on her so she filed for divorce. Since he was a higher-up, she was the one to be disfellowshiped , causing at least one other JW co-worker to leave the company so to avoid her. So she suffered not only the pain of a cheating husband, but then being treated like the plague by others, including some of her family. She is a very intelligent woman in her 40's and even through all this believes JW is the right path. It really blows my mind.
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Apr 2, 2015 15:52
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I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Should I keep out of the thread or stay to answer questions?
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Apr 2, 2015 23:16
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Darth Brooks posted:I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Should I keep out of the thread or stay to answer questions? You should definitely answer questions! Some of my friends are Witnesses so I might ask them, too. Think it's a bit different here in the Netherlands.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:21
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Is anyone in here an actual practicing JW? And if so, how do you make that copacetic with being on SA?
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Apr 2, 2015 23:39
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Darth Brooks posted:I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Should I keep out of the thread or stay to answer questions? Stay and chat. Beware bad associations that spoil useful habits!  Tell us your story and what kept you in.
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Apr 2, 2015 23:51
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Wall of text time: I started going to meetings when I was 12 but waited until I was 29 before getting baptized. I read the Bible all the way thru before getting baptized and made sure there wasn't some hidden section that had never been refereed to that invalidated what I learned. There wasn't and most of the Bible had been touched on somewhere along the line. There was a weird section in the book of Judges that I hadn't read before but Judges is where you find some of the odd stories. I thought a lot about it before decided that it was the best bet to be the truth. I've thought a lot about whether there was a creative force, aka.. evolution vs creation. The complexity and refinement of biologic designs, not just once but all the time, make more sense to me if there's something intelligent pushing the changes. There are a lot of leaps in design and they're leaps that have be made in one go. Everything evolves. Cars evolve, computers, phones, etc.. and there's a pattern to those change that echos the way that life has changed. I don't know if this sounds odd but it's almost a comparison of mathematical odds, which is more likely. The Bible is the kind of message that someone capable of designing living systems would make. There's an active intelligence there. The other religions seem more to have grown out of philosophies rather than as a direct message from a creator. There's three things that stand out to me of the beliefs of JW's that make them unique, and these beliefs agree with the Bible. No belief in a trinity, Jesus is constantly referring to his Father being greater than himself. The idea that they are separate makes so much more sense than a triple being. There's a really amazing verse I ran across a couple of months ago at Proverbs 30:4. It is talking about God and then says "What is his name and the name of his son—if you know?" Which is the only Old Testament verse that I know of that talks about God having a son. No belief in an immortal soul. The idea that when you die, you are dead and there's no separate part that wanders off or hangs around. The hope that's mentioned (repeatedly) in the Bible is resurrection. It means "standing up again". No belief in hell as a punishment. When Adam was warned in the Garden he was told the punishment was death, not an afterlife of torture. If he hadn't erred then the original plan would still be in effect, he and his wife and their children filling the earth. There was no "once you do this you're done here" in the original instructions. Once you strip out the crap, there's a design to the Bible that is really unique. You can take verse and compare them with others and it "bounces off" of other verses and the meaning opens up. It's a big book but it's also really compact. There's very little mysticism. There's prophesies but I don't worry as much about interpretations being perfectly on. That kind of stuff is best understood after anyways. Before hand it's always Best Guess as to meaning. The three things I mentioned I think are rock solid on. TLDR: the logic of the Bible and of the beliefs of JW's seem to be the most correct of what's out there. I came to SA for Photoshop Phridays and stayed because I liked the community. SA has at times been Grand Central Station for the internet. Everything from someone posting a thread about dragons screwing cars to finding out news from the Middle East days before it hits the news. GBS kinda went to pot but the subforums are still fantastic.
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Apr 3, 2015 02:24
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Darth Brooks posted:
As someone who was raised a JW but stopped going to meetings when I was around 12 or 13, and have basically been areligious since then, I would probably still agree that there is very little evidence in the Bible for the trinity/soul/hell. Although, JW's are not the only ones who reject those concepts, Unitarian Christians do as well I believe. And while its commendable that the JW's reject some of the mainstream bullshit, they have seemed to add a lot of their own as well. For example, I don't think there is a lot of scriptural evidence for living, modern day "annointed" (144,000) and that these are the same people who are the "faithful and discreet slave" (this phrase is normally interpreted to refer to the priesthood/clergy by most of mainstream Christianity). In addition, the rejection of most of modern biology, but acceptance of astronomy and geology (sometimes known as "Old Earth Creationism") always seemed bizarre to me, and mostly just an attempt to be "unique". There are plenty of other examples, but actually, my main question to you is: I know JW's very strongly discourage interaction with former JW's, especially ones who are interested in theological debate. And they seem to pretty much discourage any form of debating or outside research, especially online. Given that SA forums are aplenty with that kind of thing, and there are lots of us ex-JW's in the thread, how do you reconcile your desire to talk to us with the knowledge that doing so is highly frowned upon?
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Apr 3, 2015 18:55
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Jacobeus posted:and have basically been areligious since then I remember hearing it touted that JW's who are disfellowshipped or leave very rarely get involved with other religions. It was very proudly held as an example of JW's being the true religion. Though it seems to me that when the corruption and failings of other religions are made so apparent, and once the illusion of JW's being the exception crumbles, there isn't really any alternative left.
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Apr 3, 2015 19:09
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Drighton posted:I remember hearing it touted that JW's who are disfellowshipped or leave very rarely get involved with other religions. Does this really happen with any religion though? I've known people who switch which 'flavor' of Christian they are, but I can't think of many (who really believed it to begin with) who said "this whole thing is BS. Welp, I'm off to find another organized religion"
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Apr 3, 2015 21:18
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Dr.Caligari posted:Does this really happen with any religion though? I've known people who switch which 'flavor' of Christian they are, but I can't think of many (who really believed it to begin with) who said "this whole thing is BS. Welp, I'm off to find another organized religion" Good point, if they weren't all in to begin with, they aren't likely to buy into any of them. But I think their view of it is - JWs have plenty of incoming converts, but there are no/very few outgoing converts.
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Apr 3, 2015 21:46
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I know they're too far gone to really care about the truth, but they can't possibly believe that the JWs are growing, can they? Even Methodists and Presbyterians are having trouble keeping the lights on.
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Apr 3, 2015 22:09
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Jack Gladney posted:I know they're too far gone to really care about the truth, but they can't possibly believe that the JWs are growing, can they? Even Methodists and Presbyterians are having trouble keeping the lights on. Every year there is a ... census I guess?, in the Kingdom Ministry that shows all the stats from everyone's field service reports. It has a breakdown of each country and how many studies were done and number of publishers (iirc) among other data. The numbers were definitely climbing in the 90s and 00s.
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Apr 3, 2015 22:32
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Drighton posted:Every year there is a ... census I guess?, in the Kingdom Ministry that shows all the stats from everyone's field service reports. It has a breakdown of each country and how many studies were done and number of publishers (iirc) among other data. The numbers were definitely climbing in the 90s and 00s. I don't have the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure growth is only happening in Africa and Asia. Numbers are actually declining in Europe and the Americas. The Watchtower Society definitely publishes numbers that make it seem like their numbers are steadily going up (and even accelerating), but I don't think they take into account the huge numbers of people leaving the organization. While there are a lot of baptisms, something like 85% of children born into the religion leave by the time they are 25. Also, they don't really consider people who are baptized but just stop showing up to meetings as having really "left," even though tons of former JWs do this so they can leave without being disfellowshipped.
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Apr 3, 2015 23:14
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Jacobeus posted:There are plenty of other examples, but actually, my main question to you is: I know JW's very strongly discourage interaction with former JW's, especially ones who are interested in theological debate. And they seem to pretty much discourage any form of debating or outside research, especially online. Given that SA forums are aplenty with that kind of thing, and there are lots of us ex-JW's in the thread, how do you reconcile your desire to talk to us with the knowledge that doing so is highly frowned upon? One of the factors that figured into my dismissal of the religion was the fact that questioning anything about the religion or doing research into it was seen as apostasy and others should shun you for this.
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Apr 4, 2015 00:49
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Captain Bravo posted:They don't come back because your questions are a gigantic flag waving in the breeze that says "You don't want this guy." I never said I expected them to abandon their faith. I merely intend to present them with intelligent theological and empirical critiques of their religion to which they have no ready answer. In so doing I hope that I become a "gigantic red flag" and they do not want to come back to my house ever again. The bit about them consulting their bishops and coming back, which they do sometimes do I hear, is merely me being amused at their expense. This I don't feel guilty about at all because they came to my house, knocked on my door, and tried to push their faith on me. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 4, 2015 01:22
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If you don't believe in Hell, what are verses like Mark 9:43, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 25:46, and other verses mentioning "eternal punishment" or "eternal fire" or whatever actually talking about, in your theology? Darth Brooks posted:I read the Bible all the way thru This isn't really a JW question, but just a question for anyone that's read the Bible all the way through and still ended up being Christian: Did you really read:
I mean, don't get me wrong, the Bible has some good stuff in it somewhere, I'm sure, but I'm pretty sure some of those things ought to be dealbreakers. (In my opinion, Hell is the worst idea in a book full of abominable ideas, so kudos for not believing in that one at least.) Sorry if that seemed too hostile, but someone specifically calling all of that "truth" and "logic" (as you did) gets me a little het up.
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Apr 4, 2015 01:45
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DontMockMySmock posted:This isn't really a JW question,
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Apr 4, 2015 02:21
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DontMockMySmock posted:If you don't believe in Hell, what are verses like Mark 9:43, Matthew 13:50, Matthew 25:46, and other verses mentioning "eternal punishment" or "eternal fire" or whatever actually talking about, in your theology? I'm not going hit everything you brought up but I will talk about this. A lot of the criticism I've seen of the Bible is really about the use of language. It uses symbols and illustrations widely and in ways that can cause problems if you want to force a literal understanding on everything. Genesis talks about the creative days. 24 hours days? Gen 2:4 talks about the day that god made the heaven and Earth. If you demand that everything be taken literal, you have a conflict in the first two chapters of the book. If you use the "conflict" as an opportunity it opens up a different meaning and it tells you something you didn't know before, the use of day in the Bible is flexible. It can mean eras of immense time. Romans 6:23 says "the wages sin pays is death", verse seven says that "the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin" There's an equivalency between sin being the crime and death being the punishment. There's a conflict there with the idea of being tortured after death. What solves the conflict is the other scriptures that talk about death being a time of inactivity - ECC chapter 9, Job 14, Jesus telling his disciples that Lazarus was sleeping. So "eternal Fire" and "Eternal Punishment" have to mean something else. Jude 7 talks about Sodom and Gomorrah "undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire." Those cities aren't still on fire, but they were destroyed completely and haven't come back. So fire has to be symbolic of destruction. This is one of the things that I find remarkable about how the Bible is written. If someone is going to be unbending and insist on absolutism, they won't understand the book. E: I'm going to try and keep my replies short. Darth Brooks fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 4, 2015 04:58
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DontMockMySmock posted:Sorry if that seemed too hostile, but someone specifically calling all of that "truth" and "logic" (as you did) gets me a little het up. On that note, I've been wondering how long this thread will remain civil. I've seen JW A/T threads come up a few times in the past and people's curiosity eventually pulls a JW in, especially since the people giving answers are former members and tend to have a negative perspective. But the thread always takes a turn when the curiosity becomes "Defend your religion!", which puts them in preach mode, which puts goons in attack mode. And witnesses are certainly not trained to preach to a contentious mob, so shouting one down isn't exactly an accomplishment. Back on topic - Darth, how many congregations have you been to, and how long did you attend? How would you characterize the one you attend now? For example, I went to 3 and visited plenty others when my dad was an elder, and they all had different vibes. The first was friendly, people at the second focused a lot on status (that was the first time I was referred to as "an elder's son", like I was some kind of prince or something), and the last one had a significant wealth divide which played into who went where when that congregation was split. Oh and the Spanish congregations - I've never been, but they are/were notorious for being the strictest of them all. As in, if you have a little stubble or an elder thinks your hair isn't short enough, then you are sent to the back room in shame with the disfellowshipped, the late-comers, and the wailing children. By comparison, the kinder congregations would look past that and just be happy you were able to make it to the meeting that night. Drighton fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 4, 2015 05:57
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DontMockMySmock posted:
Is this a joke lol?
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Apr 4, 2015 05:58
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Getting your Guy Fawkes mask ready to protest the Easter egg hunts this weekend?
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Apr 4, 2015 06:00
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Drighton posted:Back on topic - Darth, how many congregations have you been to, and how long did you attend? How would you characterize the one you attend now? One in Minnesota when I was a kid, one in Missouri since then. Congregations do develop a personality and I've been in the one in Missouri long enough to see it change a few times. Currently the elders are a good mix. This congregation has always seemed to trend older but there's a few young couples. There's been a real jump in the use of tablets and smart phones. It's a group of absolutely normal people trying to do what they think is important work. For the most part they've known each other for decades so you get these little fusses and hen pecking in along with the genuine concern. There are parts of the territory that are very "I''m a good Baptist" and parts that are very wealthy (and never home) and some parts are at poverty level. There's bits and pieces of interest here and there and occasionally you find someone whose really interested. A Spanish language congregation serves the Hispanic population that's moved in over the last decade and a half.
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Apr 4, 2015 07:29
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One thing I saw Penn Jillette (who can be kind of an rear end in a top hat, but you can't invalidate an idea because of its source) bring up that always stuck with me is that in the bible, god asks Abraham to sacrifice his son. Not for the better of humanity, not even because Issac was evil, but because god said so. So Abraham does, more or less. And this is held up as a good thing. I know it's a metaphor for not questioning God, but that's what I find really scary about Monotheistic religions. You're really supposed to follow exactly what this one deity wants you to, without question, for eternity? This goes double for JW's, because they think Satan is real and is in a war with God. How was Abraham supposed to know that was God's voice, and not Satan pretending to be God? How can you know if you're making a mistake, and misinterpret what God's saying? If you can't question God, what is the mechanism for deciding what's true?
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Apr 4, 2015 20:02
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Domus posted:One thing I saw Penn Jillette (who can be kind of an rear end in a top hat, but you can't invalidate an idea because of its source) bring up that always stuck with me is that in the bible, god asks Abraham to sacrifice his son. Not for the better of humanity, not even because Issac was evil, but because god said so. So Abraham does, more or less. And this is held up as a good thing. I know it's a metaphor for not questioning God, but that's what I find really scary about Monotheistic religions. You're really supposed to follow exactly what this one deity wants you to, without question, for eternity? This goes double for JW's, because they think Satan is real and is in a war with God. How was Abraham supposed to know that was God's voice, and not Satan pretending to be God? How can you know if you're making a mistake, and misinterpret what God's saying? If you can't question God, what is the mechanism for deciding what's true? I always think of this when the sacrifice of Isaac comes up. Edit Not to derail at all, but this story always bothered me too when I was a young "catholic." On top of that, when I finally realized that the sins Jesus sacrifice was meant to atone for was really original sin, that was the beginning of the end for me in organized monotheistic faiths, which face it, are all Abrahamistic. ZombieLenin fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 4, 2015 |
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Apr 4, 2015 20:33
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Domus posted:One thing I saw Penn Jillette (who can be kind of an rear end in a top hat, but you can't invalidate an idea because of its source) bring up that always stuck with me is that in the bible, god asks Abraham to sacrifice his son. Not for the better of humanity, not even because Issac was evil, but because god said so. So Abraham does, more or less. And this is held up as a good thing. I know it's a metaphor for not questioning God, but that's what I find really scary about Monotheistic religions. You're really supposed to follow exactly what this one deity wants you to, without question, for eternity? This goes double for JW's, because they think Satan is real and is in a war with God. How was Abraham supposed to know that was God's voice, and not Satan pretending to be God? How can you know if you're making a mistake, and misinterpret what God's saying? If you can't question God, what is the mechanism for deciding what's true? Immanuel Kant offered up a stronger version of this critique like 200 years before Penn Jillette was born, if you'd rather look that up.
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Apr 4, 2015 21:27
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I just skimmed trough the OP post and saw the point about R-rated movies. Simply put not true. Who are the OP to say that R-rated movies are not allowed? He/She can not possibly know witch "certain" movies are "permitted" since this is something that each individual consciousness must judge against their moral conviction that the bible teaches. This is simply mind blowing.
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Apr 5, 2015 00:17
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Jack Gladney posted:Immanuel Kant offered up a stronger version of this critique like 200 years before Penn Jillette was born, if you'd rather look that up. While you're at it, read the Critique of Pure Reason until you understand it. It is more likely to make you feel better about the universe than the bible, though it may cause you to question the veracity of quantum physics. And as long as we're looking at early modern philosophy I suggest you go back farther and find Anselm's "proof." Then look at the contemporary work done subjecting it to modal logic. 
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Apr 5, 2015 01:38
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Domus posted:One thing I saw Penn Jillette (who can be kind of an rear end in a top hat, but you can't invalidate an idea because of its source) bring up that always stuck with me is that in the bible, god asks Abraham to sacrifice his son. Not for the better of humanity, not even because Issac was evil, but because god said so. So Abraham does, more or less. And this is held up as a good thing. I know it's a metaphor for not questioning God, but that's what I find really scary about Monotheistic religions. You're really supposed to follow exactly what this one deity wants you to, without question, for eternity? This goes double for JW's, because they think Satan is real and is in a war with God. How was Abraham supposed to know that was God's voice, and not Satan pretending to be God? How can you know if you're making a mistake, and misinterpret what God's saying? If you can't question God, what is the mechanism for deciding what's true? The answer is that pre Davidian proto-jews were stone age cave people of a region where some local gods demanded human sacrifice, and any voice that appears out of nowhere and has powers you probably shouldn't piss off Also its anachronistic to say that that story is about monotheists
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Apr 5, 2015 02:00
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I've been driving cab off and on for a decade now and this question, which may have already been answered and I'm sorry if it has, has been on my mind since I started.What's with the no windows? Every weekend I haul around sweet old folks to their various services and functions and the only one of the many houses of worship I visit every weekend that creeps me the gently caress out are JW meeting houses and it's the no windows thing. Also they even get super pissy if I help my passenger to the door because she's like a billion years old and can barely move. Often times I expect that if I turned around fast enough I'd find one of the dudes at the door spraying the walkway down with some sort of anti-heathen spray or something. I get JWs at my house all the time and they're nice then but by god I roll up in my cab and you'd think I was the Satan coming in for a visit. Oh and the young ones tip like poo poo if they tip which I don't expect but if you're going to do it, do it well. The elderly JWs are the best tippers and the nicest fares.
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Apr 6, 2015 21:10
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Jeremy_X posted:I've been driving cab off and on for a decade now and this question, which may have already been answered and I'm sorry if it has, has been on my mind since I started.What's with the no windows? Every weekend I haul around sweet old folks to their various services and functions and the only one of the many houses of worship I visit every weekend that creeps me the gently caress out are JW meeting houses and it's the no windows thing. Also they even get super pissy if I help my passenger to the door because she's like a billion years old and can barely move. Often times I expect that if I turned around fast enough I'd find one of the dudes at the door spraying the walkway down with some sort of anti-heathen spray or something. I get JWs at my house all the time and they're nice then but by god I roll up in my cab and you'd think I was the Satan coming in for a visit. Oh and the young ones tip like poo poo if they tip which I don't expect but if you're going to do it, do it well. The elderly JWs are the best tippers and the nicest fares. They are actually really paranoid about security and combined with their persecution complex they fear that windows will get smashed, burglars will break in, things will get trashed/vandalized, etc. Kingdom Halls I've seen that do have windows usually have metal bars over them as if it were in a really shady neighborhood even when they are actually in a really affluent area. Also, apparently it's way cheaper to build a building without windows?
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Apr 6, 2015 21:31
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The common sense answer is the right one, it was cheaper to build without windows. Construction costs, heat loss, etc. They've made a change for the most part in new KH's. A few years ago we built a new one and it has windows. One window was busted by a mower and a couple of crows decided they liked looking at their reflection in the front door. That would have been OK but they left remnants of their meals across the entrance while admiring themselves. I got some frosted material from work and put it across the bottom. Then they got up on the handle for the same show. When winter came they left and didn't come back. E: Jeremy_X, sorry about the kids being jerks. Darth Brooks fucked around with this message at 06:01 on Apr 7, 2015 |
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Apr 7, 2015 04:50
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A lot of small Masonic temples take the same route for the same reasons. It's cheaper and it keeps the vandals out.
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Apr 7, 2015 05:03
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Arnold of Soissons posted:Also its anachronistic to say that that story is about monotheists Well, polytheistic gods tend to not have the same issues with being omnipotent/omniscient/infallible. There are lots of stories where one deity tricks or overpowers another. So at least there's wiggle room to question there. If your deity is supposed to be perfect, and then is shown to be wrong, it requires a lot more denial of reality. Whereas if one of your multiple deities is wrong, meh, some other god messed with things, or blinded or mislead them, or whatever.
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Apr 7, 2015 07:07
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What would happen if a member were to get caught or confess to a problem such as drug addiction? Would they be offered support, or shunned?
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Apr 7, 2015 12:28
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Do JWs have much of a laugh at meetings? Any JW jokes?
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Apr 7, 2015 13:13
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